RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

Peter Henderson

watty wrote: »

It's not definate at all that our channels will be on NI DTT
1) It may be TG4 only
or
2) TG4 + RTE1

It absolutely won't be the HD versions we getting on DTT by 2012
It absolutely won't include TV3 or any of the new channels.

We can get all the UK freesat anywhere, free
N.I. Should be able to get Saorsat free. That will likely kill anything more than TG4 on N.I DTT, and possibly even that.

Will it not likely be RTE 1, RTE 2, and TG4 ? As far as I know TG4 is definite, though I'm not sure what the situation will be on Freeview Lite transmitters.

As for freesat, is it not possible to put RTE 1, RTE 2, and TG 4 free to air in NI only but not in the rest of the UK ? Surely that's technicaly possible ?

Still, I suppose if Saorsat can be received on a Freesat receiver albeit with an extra dish/LNB combination it'll be just as good. The only reason why I wont ditch Sky for Freeesat is because of RTE, even if it is a limited service up here.

The Cush

Butch Cassidy wrote: »

Right, newbie here looking for info. Can I tune this in to my Sky HD+ box via "other channels" or whatever?

If you are referring to Saorsat - no.

Reason: Different satellite, different satellite position, different frequency range, different LNB required, different satellite receiver.

In any case the Saorsat service will not launch until the satellite expected to provide the service - Eutelsat Ka-Sat - successfully launches, provisional launch date is December. If it's successful the Saorsat service should begin in the first half of next year once receiving equipment becomes available.

Peter Henderson

rlogue wrote: »

No Saorsat will not be available using a Sky box. You will need a seperate box, but the same box could be used if you're not worried about having an EPG as the Saorsat channels could be stored in the 'Other Channels' or non-Freesat channels in a Freesat box.

Will there be seperate Saorsat boxes available in the ROI and will these receive Freesat along with the EPG ?

No doubt somebody will surely produce Freesat/Saorsat combi boxes.

The Cush

Peter Henderson wrote: »

As for freesat, is it not possible to put RTE 1, RTE 2, and TG 4 free to air in NI only but not in the rest of the UK ? Surely that's technicaly possible ?

Technically possible - no, not without encrypting them as they would also be available to any free-to-air satellite receiver within the footprint.

This from RTÉ's Conor Hayes

Mr. Conor Hayes: ...
Another innovation by RTE is promotion of its satellite option, Saorsat. Some members of the committee will be familiar with the equivalent UK service, Freesat. The BBC, ITV and a number of other companies have put their services on one of the wideband Astra satellites. The services are broadcast unencrypted, or “in the clear” as we call it. The trouble with those wideband satellites is that they have a very big footprint. If RTE were to be put up on a wideband satellite, its services would be in the clear to the UK, France, Holland and many other countries. One might ask why that should not be done, to which I would respond that we do not have the resources to purchase the rights to enable us to broadcast into those countries. We buy programming that allows us to broadcast to 4.5 million people. We do not have the money to broadcast to 100 million people. Therefore, the option taken by the BBC when Freesat was launched is not available to us.

...
It [Saorsat] will cost us approximately €1.5 million per year. We can manage it. As other channels come on board, part of the cost will be defrayed. In light of the security this option provides and the ability to supply to the 2% of the population who do not currently receive public service television, the cost can be adequately justified. We might have a different take on the situation were the cost €20 million or €25 million, but the actual amount is appropriate and reasonable.

Peter Henderson wrote: »

Will there be seperate Saorsat boxes available in the ROI and will these receive Freesat along with the EPG ?

We don't know. We don't know the spec of the Saorsat receivers or who will provide them. Don't expect any official information until Ka-Sat successfully launches.

scruffy66

rlogue wrote: »

No Saorsat will not be available using a Sky box. You will need a seperate box, but the same box could be used if you're not worried about having an EPG as the Saorsat channels could be stored in the 'Other Channels' or non-Freesat channels in a Freesat box.

How will you get saorsat on a Freesat box, The Freesat box needs a diseqc switch.i could be wrong but the only freesat that has one is the Humax Foxsat HDR

scruffy66

watty wrote: »

that's last year, but seems clear:

Yeah your right ,Did'nt look at the date of that article ,

Here is a recent survey Freesat was doing



http://www.digitalspy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1101050

Butch Cassidy

The Cush wrote: »

If you are referring to Saorsat - no.

Reason: Different satellite, different satellite position, different frequency range, different LNB required, different satellite receiver.

In any case the Saorsat service will not launch until the satellite expected to provide the service - Eutelsat Ka-Sat - successfully launches, provisional launch date is December. If it's successful the Saorsat service should begin in the first half of next year once receiving equipment becomes available.

Thank you. I have little understanding of what that means and I'm way in over my head. I'll check back in 6months to see what the score is.

The Cush

Butch Cassidy wrote: »

Thank you. I have little understanding of what that means and I'm way in over my head. I'll check back in 6months to see what the score is.

This is a good overview of what Saorsat is about - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saorsat

You may not require Saorsat if you can get the Irish channels digitally (DTT) with an aerial, that service is to be called Saorview and will launch to approx 94.5% of the population by the end of next month, rising to 98% by late 2012. Saorsat is primarily for the last 2% who will not get it with an aerial.

watty

scruffy66 wrote: »

Here is a recent survey Freesat was doing



http://www.digitalspy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1101050

It's just market research. It doesn't actually indicate ANYTHING about freesat Intentions.

Besides CI or card reader is optional on Freesat boxes. Most don't have them. Clue in the name.

scruffy66

watty wrote: »

It's just market research. It doesn't actually indicate ANYTHING about freesat Intentions.

Besides CI or card reader is optional on Freesat boxes. Most don't have them. Clue in the name.

I would be inclined to agree with you Watty, But this is what the Managing Director of Freesat said in July 2010 in a interview to the Guardian News paper

Emma Scott, managing director and co-founder of Freesat, said: "We are looking at pay television. There is a lot of discussion around the Freesat and pay television issues taking place at board level. We haven't taken a final decision."

Freesat was watching developments closely, including BT Vision's move to offer customers the service in time for the new Premier League season.

Scott added: "My personal view is that it would be odd for Freesat not to offer the option as well."

Freeview do Top up Pay Tv and yet you would think Freeview has a clue in
its name too. I guess we will just have to wait and see.

12 element

scruffy66 wrote: »

How will you get saorsat on a Freesat box, The Freesat box needs a diseqc switch.i could be wrong but the only freesat that has one is the Humax Foxsat HDR

The Technisat HD receiver suports Diseqc also.

watty

scruffy66 wrote: »

Freeview do Top up Pay Tv and yet you would think Freeview has a clue in
its name too. I guess we will just have to wait and see.

Not according to Wikipedia they don't

TopUp TV share the Infrastructure and work on Freeview boxes with CI/CAS etc.

Corporate information

The company was founded by two former BSkyB executives, David Chance and Ian West. Top Up TV is 20% owned by Five who took a stake in 2005, its Financial Officer is Nick Humby from Manchester United. Top Up TV's management team currently consists of Nick Markham as chief executive officer, Matt Seaman as chief operating officer, Nick Humby as chief financial officer and Simon Dore as chief technical officer.

During 2006, Top Up TV restructured which saw the original company liquidated under Members voluntary liquidation under the name Minds1. The owner of Access Industries, Len Blavatnik, is said to have purchased a 70% stake in January 2007.

Top Up TV AFAIK barely hold its head above water.

Freeview are

DTV Services, trading as Freeview, is the name for the collection of free-to-air services on the Digital Terrestrial Television platform in the UK. The service is jointly run by its five equal shareholders, BBC, ITV, Channel 4, Sky and transmitter operator Arqiva. DTV Services is designed to market changes to the platform. DTV Services is responsible for marketing services such as Freeview+, the PVR brand and Freeview HD.

The technical specification for Freeview is published and maintained by the Digital TV Group, the industry association for digital TV in the UK who also provide the test and conformance regime for Freeview, Freeview + and Freeview HD products.

The spec for Freeview isn't generally available. It's the "D-Book".

I can't see what Freesat are playing at.
Virgin, BT Media and Topup TV are three terrestrial Pay TV platforms (Cable, DSL/Fibre and DTT). None AFAIK are connected with Freeview or Freesat.

Scott added: "My personal view is that it would be odd for Freesat not to offer the option as well."

Hasn't she heard of Sky?
Or seen Real Digital's site?

DTT originated with PayTV (Ondigital and ITVdigital) partner that became Freeview and Top UP TV, so boxes had card reader/CI, as do all IDTV above a certain size for DTT (mandated). Freesat is from the start a FTA platform where there was only Sky PayTV. PayTV HW (CI,CAM, CAS, Card reader etc) is optional and not built in on many boxes.

They are madder than RealDigital if they think they can launch PayTV on satellite in competition with Sky. It would also irreparably damage Freesat branding.

See also Sky Picnic, which is unlikely to launch as originally proposed.

Sky Picnic is a proposed pay television service to launch from BSkyB. It will sit alongside Freeview and Top Up TV on the digital terrestrial television (DTT) platform in the United Kingdom.

AFAIK picnic is dead.

lawhec

warlikedave wrote: »

cant believe they wont include the nothern irish channels in the ROI version of DTT whether it be on DTT or sat...and yet we are providing our channels to the north..while we wait for a pay per view version of those channels

i think that should work both ways...for the same price each way - nada - 0....:mad:

1. No RTÉ, TV3 or TG4 is currently available on DTT in N.I., any reception currently is via overspill from across the the border.
2. TG4 only broadcasting in the north at Divis. At low power. With a directional aerial serving only a part of Belfast. To satisfy remit in the Good Friday Agreement. And it came on only in 2005.
3. MoU earlier this year only covers RTÉ & BBC i.e. the main PSBs. Not UTV, Channel 4, TV3 or Five (If Desmond feels he's bothered). TG4 may be covered separately through other inter-government agreements (e.g. GFA extension). TG4 had talk of possibly being on UTV/CH4 multiplex after DSO, but has now gone quiet.
4. Funding. The cost of transmission of RTÉ in the north and BBC in the south has to be met by someone. RTÉ in the north would either have to be met by either RTÉ themselves, the Irish Government, the NI Assembly and/or Westminster. All four bodies are tightening belts e.g. NI Assembly is getting its block grant substantially cut. Might be possible if money after DSO in the UK is finished is left over to run the service for a few years. Subscription service unlikely. Frequencies must also be found, unlikely to give same coverage as other multiplexes co-sited, may be restricted to places where RTÉ analogue reception is nigh-impossible today. HD also unlikely with only one multiplex. In the case of BBC southwards, BBC will not fund any cost themselves. Not in general UK Government or NI assembly interest to expand BBC domestic services to the Republic. Cost would have to be met either by private subscription or funding from government/public body.
5. Satellite reception. Almost any viewer in the Republic wanting to watch BBC channels for free can get them via DVB-S receiver with dish aimed at 28.2 East through Sky, Freesat or FTA receivers. RTÉ in the north via satellite can only be got via Sky subscription (same as viewers in the south) with no TV3 and some programmes geo-blocked. If Saorsat successfully launches, reception should be possible throughout N.Ireland though larger dishes might be needed in counties Antrim & Down compared to Fermanagh & Tyrone.

lawhec

Peter Henderson wrote: »

As for freesat, is it not possible to put RTE 1, RTE 2, and TG 4 free to air in NI only but not in the rest of the UK ? Surely that's technicaly possible ?

Not really. Irish government ministers tried thinking the same when BBC announced broadcasting FTA at 28.2 East, but technically impossible at least under the current technical setup. Would require a system similar to that proposed for Saorsat with very tight beams and reception limited by dish size and interference from another spot beam using same frequency & polarisation. Even then not 100% perfect. Same broadcast stream that carries BBC1 Northern Ireland on Astra 2D is the same wherever it is received in Belfast, Enniskillen, Tralee, London, Paris, Gibraltar or Budapest assuming a large enough dish is used in the relevant places. Impossible for that single stream to appear FTA for viewers in Belfast, Enniskillen & London but not FTA in Tralee, Paris, Gibraltar and Budapest.

lawhec

scruffy66 wrote: »

Freeview do Top up Pay Tv and yet you would think Freeview has a clue in its name too. I guess we will just have to wait and see.

Watty has given some details, but to add Freeview & TUTV have nothing to do with each other, they are separate entities. Freeview does not promote TUTV. Never has, TUTV has always done its own advertising. They simply share a common broadcasting platform namely DTT. Like Freesat and BSkyB on Digital Satellite. TUTV requires its own hardware for its service, though it does handle subscription for ESPN on DTT on a standalone basis as well. Only significant link is that TUTV promote their receivers as Freeview+ compatible.

Only subscription services available on Freeview is ESPN (handled by TUTV, requires a receiver with a built in Nagravision 3 CAM or a receiver that can take Nagravision CAM in a CI slot), Television X and one of the dial-a-tart channels (Babestation "Extreme" I think it's called) that use MHEG to open up hidden broadcast streams via a pin number.

Macy0161

lawhec wrote: »

Only subscription services available on Freeview is ESPN (handled by TUTV, requires a receiver with a built in Nagravision 3 CAM or a receiver that can take Nagravision CAM in a CI slot), Television X and one of the dial-a-tart channels (Babestation "Extreme" I think it's called) that use MHEG to open up hidden broadcast streams via a pin number.

I thought they had sky sports 1 & 2 as options now as well?

scruffy66

12 element wrote: »

The Technisat HD receiver suports Diseqc also.

They do along with many other none Freesat boxes

scruffy66

From Watty/TopUp TV share the Infrastructure and work on Freeview boxes with CI/CAS etc.

1/thats what i would expect would happen with freesat ,with obviously new boxes ,for those who CHOOSE to have Top up through satellite ,especially the people who cant get DTT

Top Up TV AFAIK barely hold its head above water.

2/ yes but Top AFAIK can now offer Sky Sports 1/2 on Freeview


I can't see what Freesat are playing at.[/B]
Virgin, BT Media and Topup TV are three terrestrial Pay TV platforms (Cable, DSL/Fibre and DTT). None AFAIK are connected with Freeview or Freesat.

3/If someone comes on board to do Top up through Freesat carded box they dont necessarily have to have a connection with Freesat, except maybe the use of the epg

Hasn't she heard of Sky?
Or seen Real Digital's site?

4/ im sure she has

They are madder than RealDigital if they think they can launch PayTV on satellite in competition with Sky.

5/ If Sky have to sell Sky Sports 1/2 at a commercial rate on the market
then why not on satellite as well .Every competition is Direct competition
no matter what format it comes in


6/ Maybe she is mad, but you know what they say about madness:D

12 element

scruffy66 wrote: »

They do along with many other none Freesat boxes

It is a freesat box.

http://www.technisat.com/index9132.html?nav=Sat_DVB_S_,en,64-15041

scruffy66

12 element wrote: »

It is a freesat box.

http://www.technisat.com/index9132.html?nav=Sat_DVB_S_,en,64-15041

Apologies , must get a list of Freesat boxes that have a disqec switchs, i think there is only one or two that do

12 element

scruffy66 wrote: »

Apologies , must get a list of Freesat boxes that have a disqec switchs, i think there is only one or two that do

The humax ones and the technisat are the only ones I know off the top of my head too. The technisat are a nice box, you can stream media files from a computer over the network. You can get a wireless adaptor for it too.

watty

It's simple software and all sat boxes have the required HW. In theory if a market demand manufacturers can easily add it. Sky won't ever unless they have to use two satellite positions for one payTV market or forced to it by EU regulators.

It should have been mandatory in Freesat spec.

scruffy66

12 element wrote: »

The humax ones and the technisat are the only ones I know off the top of my head too. The technisat are a nice box, you can stream media files from a computer over the network. You can get a wireless adaptor for it too.

What price are the Technisat working out at, could be a good box to work with the SAORSAT when launched

lawhec

Macy0161 wrote: »

I thought they had sky sports 1 & 2 as options now as well?

To an extent, you're correct. Officially, to subscribe to ESPN via DTT in the UK, you have to go through TUTV's call centre. However, you are not forced to use a TUTV badged receiver to view the service, an integrated digital TV, STB or stand alone PVR (like the Humax PVR models) with a CI slot can be used with a Nagravision CAM. To subscribe to Sky Sports 1 and/or 2, you are supposed to use TUTV's own hardware, and the viewing card & receiver are supposed to be paired (though from reading the DS forums, this hasn't been done yet). The only other way to subscribe is via BT Vision, which is a combined DTT/ADSL service.

12 element

scruffy66 wrote: »

What price are the Technisat working out at, could be a good box to work with the SAORSAT when launched

Around €200-€210 but don't quote me on that.

About the receivers, I'd assume you'd need to do some maths to get a Ku band receiver working on Ka band? Since the LO on the LNB would be different, the frequency the box reports wouldn't be the actual one.

I remember this when working on a Pace PRD-900 analogue receiver back in the mid 90s, the dish was fitted with a 9.75 GHz LNB while the receiver's firmware was set for a 10.0 GHz LO, which gave the effect of shifting all the channels up by 250 MHz.

Apogee

Any decent FTA receiver will allow you to set a specific LO for the LNB.

Apogee

Apogee wrote: »

Any decent FTA receiver will allow you to set a specific LO for the LNB.

Yes but the tuner I'd assume would still display from 10.7-12.75 GHz?

Apogee

Karsini wrote: »

Yes but the tuner I'd assume would still display from 10.7-12.75 GHz?

No. What would be the point of setting the LO otherwise?

Apogee

Apogee wrote: »

No. What would be the point of setting the LO otherwise?

The receiver will display one thing but actually tune in something else. Like in my example above, on that PRD-900 if you entered 11.318 V for Sky One you'd get CMT instead (which was on 11.568 V). Unless the receiver specifically had an option to choose a Ka band LNB it will display Ku band frequencies.