RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

Tony

Trade shows next few days so I'll go take a look at Armstrongs who sell walker stuff.

byte

Tony wrote: »

Trade shows next few days so I'll go take a look at Armstrongs who sell walker stuff.

Didn't know Armstrong sold Walker stuff.

Anyway, Walker themselves are at the shows too, though not sure if they're having theirs on their own premises or in the multi-vendor hotel (don't remember name of hotel now).

STB

The claims based on what is in those documents just dont hold up.

In order to get certification through Teracom the boxes would have to have been submitted. They would then carry the logo. But of course boxes arent being made available yet.

There are claims that the boxes sold in Power City have MHEG5 on the boxes. The box has been out since early 2009. It would be unusual that there would be 2 batches of the same model with different software but not beyond the bounds of possibility (MHEG5 can be added but only if the manufacturer is up for it - there are licence costs for MHEG5, so its normally pre programmed well in advance). It is not in the spec online anywhere.

Same with the TVs ?!

I am not sure that MHEG5 isnt turned off til October or whether its just not being updated (I dont have any MHEG5 receiver)

Think Kensington has one of these, maybe he can tell us the ins and outs.

Tony

byte wrote: »

Didn't know Armstrong sold Walker stuff.

Anyway, Walker themselves are at the shows too, though not sure if they're having theirs on their own premises or in the multi-vendor hotel (don't remember name of hotel now).

Yeah they've been selling Walker tv's for years. Arsmtrong show is in their own place so not sure if Walker will be there. Did not know they were local to me either.

The Cush

STB wrote: »

I am not sure that MHEG5 isnt turned off til October or whether its just not being updated (I dont have any MHEG5 receiver)

MHEG-5 digital Aertel returned last week, no MHEG-5 epg yet.

Kensington

byte wrote: »

I've access to the same boxes sold in Power City.

I'm not sure if there's MHEG5 on the current model - it's not listed on the specs.

There maybe a new model, that looks physically identical to their existing one, but with the MHEG5 middleware.

Is there still an RTE EPG on air? I could try test one of the Walker boxes.

The powercity Walker boxes do have full MHEG-5 and have had from the beginning. They have generic firmware pre-loaded however, so no mention of SaorView TV or any logos as in the screengrabs posted a few days ago. Of course, this could be addressed at a later date via firmware update.

As for MHEG-5 broadcasts, it's just Aertel on-air at present. No EPG.

Tony

Its seems armstrongs no longer sell walker so did not get to see the box. Their (Walkers) show is in the City West hotel with a number of other exhibitors. Any one I spoke to about it seem to be very sceptical about their claims that they are saorview approved.

watty

Given the no pre-publicity alleged for Saorview certification before it's launched, I'm slightly sceptical. The other manufacturers, importers and distributers won't be amused.

STB

In all fairness Watty Power City have taken a proactive approach to the letter to CEDA/retailers from the Dept of Comms some time back :

digitaltelevision.ie wrote:

Information to Retailers


Retailers are requested to ensure that all iDTV’s for sale in Ireland will be compatible with the Irish DTT network, when it launches. Retailers are also requested to provide information to their customers on DTT.

In addition, retailers are urged to ensure that a sufficient range of receivers (including set top boxes, integrated digital televisions and personal video recorders) specified for use on the Irish DTT network are available to consumers for the launch of DTT services in Ireland.

The RTE free to air DTT services will use an MPEG 4 compression standard and MHEG 5 (V6) middleware MPEG 4 is different to the MPEG 2 compression standard used in the UK. Retailers should note that televisions with MPEG 2 tuners only, will not pick up the Irish DTT service, when it develops.

They are indicating products as being "Irish Digital Ready" that include other manufacturers products that have like the Walker yet to be certified with a Saorview sticker. Some of course wont be but are at least MPEG4.

Which is more than can be said for a lot of the other retailers a year and a half later who continue to stock MPEG2 products rather than the right products mainly because they are large UK chains with no technical knowledge. They must be tackled at this stage. Press coverage alone must have alerted them. The manufacturers like Philips (a CEDA member) should be more proactive themselves.

Having said all that it is now clear that the Walker WP10TDB is one of the official products that we now know of that hasnt got the sticker yet. For people that want all the bells and whistles this is probably a safe investment now and is probably supported OTA in the future.

watty

It's not a PVR? so hardly bells and whistles.

IMO, nothing is to be recommended till it's got a real sticker, or on BAI or RTE NL, or on Teracom or on Dept of Comms Ditgitaltelevision.ie site.

Walker hasn't even got a proper spec of it on their site.

STB

PVR is not a requirement of the RTE specs for a STB as far as I can remember.

I do note that it has a USB port (described as a USB input however). Not having one of these boxes I cant tell if it does work PVR style or whether the chipset will alllow it.

I agree the spec released is very basic info. And you are right we are discussing something that hasnt officially been Saorview approved (although Walker say RTE have).

Then again we are not the everyday general public on this forum.

Tony

STB wrote: »

And you are right we are discussing something that hasnt officially been Saorview approved (although Walker say RTE have).

I think this is where the scepticism about Walker comes from, why would RTE hire a company to do type approval if they are going to approve products themselves?

watty

STB wrote: »

PVR is not a requirement of the RTE specs for a STB as far as I can remember.

No. But a BASIC box meets the minimum Spec. All bells in whistles to me is a dual tuner PVR with internal HDD, that's all I meant.

Something that has one tuner and USB host port supporting a HDD, is not a proper PVR, and only appears cheap as you need to buy the HDD and then can't watch a different channel on the other Mux.

STB

Tony but it probably isnt for public consumption. Byte noticed a mock up and associated article in IER industry magazine and then the Walker site was checked, whilst it is public site, the brochure might be more geared towards retailers. The model number is specific. Until RTE make an official annoucement of what is Saorview approved, nothing is official.

No smoke though....

Watty a basic FTA box per the RTE spec. I agree that there will hopefully will be more advanced products. Bells and whistles - I suppose MHEG5 is not all that, but it is a rarity in the land of the grey products.

As an aside I was wondering how PVRs would work in record mode with 2 muxes. Perhaps it is the same as same transponder on sat.

Tony

STB wrote: »

Tony but it probably isnt for public consumption.

If its not for public consumption then it should not be on the net.
From Walker
"our products have been approved by RTÉ to compliment the New Saorview"

RTE are not approving any product as they have hired another company to do this according to themsleves.

"RTÉ has appointed Teracom AB to conduct receiver compliance testing for Irish free-to-air (FTA)"

and

"Please note that no STB's (set top boxes) or iDTV's (Integrated Digital Televisions) have been approved for the Irish market as yet."

I think Walkers are trying it on in this instance.

watty

STB wrote: »

As an aside I was wondering how PVRs would work in record mode with 2 muxes. Perhaps it is the same as same transponder on sat.

you need two tuners.
All "proper" PVRs have at least two tuners. Sat or terrestrial. The Terrestrial ones usually split the signal internally unlike satellite that has two inlets.

watty

Tony wrote: »

If its not for public consumption then it should not be on the net.
From Walker
"our products have been approved by RTÉ to compliment the New Saorview"

RTE are not approving any product as they have hired another company to do this according to themsleves.

"RTÉ has appointed Teracom AB to conduct receiver compliance testing for Irish free-to-air (FTA)"

and

"Please note that no STB's (set top boxes) or iDTV's (Integrated Digital Televisions) have been approved for the Irish market as yet."

I think Walkers are trying it on in this instance.

All agreed, in essence. Except of course "the trying it on" could be the advance publicity before RTE NL or BAI or http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/ (the three Irish official sites). Teracom do the testing, but RTE NL or http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/ Publish who is approved. The Walker box could be also approved.

Teracom do the testing, but one of the Official Irish sites will list the approved TVs and Set-boxes.

Approved STBs will be available prior to the launch of the DTT services. The price of these has yet to be determined.
Please note that no STB's (set top boxes) or iDTV's (Integrated Digital Televisions) have been approved for the Irish market as yet. When approved STB's or iDTV's are available in the Irish market, information will be provided on this website.

Link to www.digitaltelevision.ie

The "Public launch is Mid 2011". So the "prior" RTE NL talk about would logically be from 31st October 2010 when existing Mux on that date are "officially live" (Soft launch) and Information campaign starts to ramp up. I'd suggest there are reasons they didn't want to start the campaign till a service "officially available" and an initial list of TVs and Set Boxes with approval. Unfortunately the fruitless search for a pay-TV partner delayed everything.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

The "Public launch is Mid 2011".

The Dept mandates the full national launch "by the end of Dec 2011" and RTÉ recommends Q2 2011, so it could be anytime 1 April and 31 Dec 2011.

jaykay8989

I've been through a good lot of the thread but cant seem to figure out the answer to this - will I be able to use by current sky dish (currently a dual feed for sky plus downstairs and a feed to a standard sky box upstairs) and just buy two new set top boxes to get all uk FTA stations and the Saorsat stations?

And would I be able to watch any station downstairs while recording any other station on the same box?


thanks
J

Tony

No this will not be possible with a sky dish.

jaykay8989 wrote: »

I've been through a good lot of the thread but cant seem to figure out the answer to this - will I be able to use by current sky dish (currently a dual feed for sky plus downstairs and a feed to a standard sky box upstairs) and just buy two new set top boxes to get all uk FTA stations and the Saorsat stations?

And would I be able to watch any station downstairs while recording any other station on the same box?


thanks
J

Apogee

The eweek article posted earlier contains some tech specs for Ka-sat but no mention of a source. The only thing I can find is an article by 3 Eutelsat employees in a 2009 edition of Personal Satellite Services on 'Triple Play over Satellite'.



Full source (worth a read!!) [edit] Small bit out of date e.g. mention of 13E orbital slot.
http://books.google.com/books?id=HosqsgNYdLUC&pg=PA20&dq=satellite+ka-sat+triple+ply&hl=en&ei=zC14TNOjM9DJ4AaAuvncBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false


The two pieces strongly suggest a frequency layout similar to that of Hotbird 6 as posted by Watty.



http://www.satsig.net/tooway/tooway-satellite.htm

watty

So likely the four colours of spots are the two bands and two polarities.

Apogee

Looks that way, so picking up the service outside of Ireland is likely to be extremely difficult.

Stinicker

So Apogee if that article is correct and the Eutelsat KA-Band Satellite does launch to 13° East, this would mean that a single dish multi LNB solution could be implemented to give the end user Astra 28°E for Freesat or Sky and also Saorsat for RTE and with a DVB-S2 compatible HD Box and a disecq switch.

I am guessing that the standard KU Band (12-18Ghz) LNB will not be able to pick up anything on the KA band (26.5-40Ghz) or is there a Universal 12-40GHz LNB which can pickup both KU and KA band frequencies thus making Saorsat implementable on a Motorised rig.

watty

It's 100% definitely 9 E, Discussed earlier. The confusion is that the test service for Tooway is on 13E using 4 spots and there is a demo dish that has 13E Ku LNBF for TV and 9E ka LNBF for Tooway satellite service.

You need a different LNBF for Ka Band or Ku Band.

An 80cm dish may be feasible for dual feed. That has yet to be tested. But the Ka band dish can be very small and in a box.

See http://www.techtir.ie/saortv/saorsat
and http://www.techtir.ie/isaa/saorsat/preliminary

Peter Henderson

•A dual tuner Recording box will only need one coax unlike Sky/Freesat which needs two.

That doesn't make any sense....or am I missing something ?

Ah...just noticed you can split the downlead unlike Sky or Freesat. Handy.

Stinicker

Peter Henderson wrote: »

That doesn't make any sense....or am I missing something ?

Ah...just noticed you can split the downlead unlike Sky or Freesat. Handy.

You are still better of running the 2nd cable or else shotgun cable (dual core cable) because the pnly reason you will be able to use the single cable is the 4 or 5 channels will be on the same transponder, if more channels were to launch in future then you would need the 2nd cable and dual output LNB.

watty

Not on Kasat. One Spot = one band + one Polarity.

There are 82 or 83 spot beams.

But Freesat needs two cables. Saorsat can be added later via outdoor Diseqc switches on both cables.

Any shotgun cable I've seen is expensive and inferior. Better to run 2 x TX100 or 2 x PF100

Stinicker

watty wrote: »

Not on Kasat. One Spot = one band + one Polarity.

There are 82 or 83 spot beams.

But Freesat needs two cables. Saorsat can be added later via outdoor Diseqc switches on both cables.

Any shotgun cable I've seen is expensive and inferior. Better to run 2 x TX100 or 2 x PF100

Oh, I learn something new everyday! Does this mean that the spotbeam RTÉ to be used would be limited in capacity? Not that RTÉ will ever have more than ten channels.

watty

Not really.
28.2E is served by four satellites and I think 7 beams.
The entire spectrum isn't used up.
About 70+ radio stations
About 25 HD TV channels
About 800 regular TV channels.

But there is HUGE duplication because ALL areas get all regional variations. There are four or five C4s (advertising regions).

kasat splits the Spectrum / capacity in four basically. It's mathematically proven you can "colour" ANY arbitrary map with only four "colours". So the pattern of over 80 spots can be arbitrary.


Possible four "logical colours" for the 80+ spots.
K153, K159
K154, K158
(Example is earlier Hotbird @ 13E with only four spots, Kasat will be similar)

Here is just a few of the 80+ spot beams


Only one for Ireland, but four for UK. There will be more satellites like Kasat over the next ten years. The main purpose of this one is Two way Internet, Satellite "Broadband".

Soarsat is only a copy of the Terrestrial Saorview which has tiny capacity compared to 1/4 of the bandwidth of satellite!

Saorsat is not going to have copies of the Freesat channels. It's only going to have the Irish Terrestrial Digital TV and Radio, so even though most of the capacity will be used for Internet, there is plenty of space for expansion to the maximum that Saorview can ever physically carry, terrestrially.