RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

Apogee

Karsini wrote: »

The receiver will display one thing but actually tune in something else. Like in my example above, on that PRD-900 if you entered 11.318 V for Sky One you'd get CMT instead (which was on 11.568 V). Unless the receiver specifically had an option to choose a Ka band LNB it will display Ku band frequencies.

The PRD-900 is from the stoneage and you could not set a custom LO AFAIK. It is not of any relevance to Saorsat or the Ka-band.

In any decent FTA receiver, you have an option to setup a custom LNBF with whatever LO you want, usually used for single LO Ku-LNBFs, but can also be used for C-band, S-band, Ka-band or any other band.

The IF range of the tuner is always the same 900-2100MHz, regardless of what type of LNB is attached. The frequency displayed on the tuning menu is based on the LO you enter. The receiver calculates the tuning frequency by taking the IF frequency + LO. So if the tuner is on 1000MHz + custom LO of 18.75GHz, the receiver will display a frequency of 19.750GHz.

Apogee

Read this if you still don't believe me.
http://www.tele-satellite.com/TELE-satellite-0811/eng/ka-band.pdf

That's fair enough, I'm aware of the IF range and knew it would be the same alright. Wasn't intending to pick arguments or anything; I just didn't know about the way the box would report the frequency. I was assuming that boxes would be hard coded to listing frequencies between 10.7 and 12.5 regardless of the IF.

Apogee

I can't recall coming across a digital FTA receiver which didn't have the option for setting a custom LO, even a lowly Lidl Comag. It's just that 99% of the time, people have no need to use that part of the installation menu.

*mental note to self* think before you post....

Makes 100% sense now, I've a habit of making dumb points now and again!

watty

I've posted complete bilge water on more than one occasion.

watty

Karsini wrote: »

That's fair enough, I'm aware of the IF range and knew it would be the same alright. Wasn't intending to pick arguments or anything; I just didn't know about the way the box would report the frequency. I was assuming that boxes would be hard coded to listing frequencies between 10.7 and 12.5 regardless of the IF.

I can't remember the last time I saw the frequency of a channel. Some boxes don't even display frequency of anything other than transponders unless you are using PC channel editor.

watty

watty wrote: »

I can't remember the last time I saw the frequency of a channel. Some boxes don't even display frequency of anything other than transponders unless you are using PC channel editor.

Yeah I was stupidly assuming that:

A) The box would be hard-coded to use Ku band frequencies so wouldn't let you enter a 30 GHz transponder.

There would be a limit on what you could set the LO at.

watty

There could be on some boxes.

But the minimum spec is a DVB-S2 HD box. Less won't work anyway. I must have a look actually.

Lidl, Philco, Sky and Aldi boxes need not apply.

warlikedave

watty wrote: »

There could be on some boxes.

But the minimum spec is a DVB-T2 HD box. Less won't work anyway. I must have a look actually.

Lidl, Philco, Sky and Aldi boxes need not apply.

DVB-S2 u mean? and that would be the min spec for saorsat? or will they use a different coding?

watty

Sorry S2
Min for Soarsat is DVB-S2 and HD.
Nowadays all HD sat boxes do DVB-S and DVB-S2
(Not fake HD boxes that have an HDMI, but only do SD)

Mike 1972

watty wrote: »

We are lucky Tesco and Lidl don't ask for Sterling!

They use Sterling in Germany

Sam Russell wrote: »

A lot of this talk about Saorsat reminds me of the rush to get MMDS up and running for rural dwellers to get UKTV, and lots and lots of dooooom spoken about. It will never work, wrong system, too much loss, line of sight, etc. etc.

How Prophetic !

Sam Russell wrote: »

For example, many MMDS chicken wire dishes are visible around Dublin, where cable is king.

WiFi ?

watty

NTL & Chorus gave up repairing cable in some city areas and fitted MMDS. UPC has been fixing the cable as you need it for Broadband etc. I know a whole street of MMDS aerials in Limerick that is now back on Cable, with 15Mbps as the typical BB.

Sam Russell

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Russell
For example, many MMDS chicken wire dishes are visible around Dublin, where cable is king.


WiFi ?

No, MMDS. In DunLoaghaire, there are many pointing north. The WiFi are completely different.

Mike 1972

What other channels are likely to be available on Saorsat (i.e have an other broadcasters stated an intention to use Ka band at 9E on the Irish beams)

Sam Russell wrote: »

No, MMDS. In DunLoaghaire, there are many pointing north. The WiFi are completely different.

IIRC parts of said area were never cabled

watty wrote: »

NTL & Chorus gave up repairing cable in some city areas and fitted MMDS. .

Was this not a breach of their licence conditions ?

watty

Mike 1972 wrote: »

What other channels are likely to be available on Saorsat (i.e have an other broadcasters stated an intention to use Ka band at 9E on the Irish beams)

Probably none. It's just a fill-in and backup feed copy of Saorview.
If you want UK TV use Freesat. A single dual feed dish is possible.

It's for the 2% to 7% that won't get DTT (terrestrial). It's a totally pointless satellite for any broadcaster not on DTT to use. If someone joins DTT (Saorview) they will automatically be on Saorsat.


It's not unlikely that some UK broadcast would use one to four of the UK spots to feed DTT sites or Virgin Media Cable head end. At the moment Intelsat 907 is used.

Scotland, West Scotland/Isles/N.I. Welsh and England 9E spots.
The N.I. and Welsh spots might be possibly received in most of Ireland.

The main purpose of the Satellite is the "Tooway" VSAT based Internet service, not TV. It's just "handy" and cheap to solve RTE NL's lack of coverage problem, yet need to be FTA.

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Was this not a breach of their licence conditions ?

Probably. But MANY people have been in breach of Comreg licence conditions. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056045133
Little to Nothing is ever done.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

If someone joins DTT (Saorview) they will automatically be on Saorsat.

Only if they pay the associated costs.

Deputy Liz McManus: What will that provision cost RTE?

Mr. Conor Hayes: A limited amount, which is detailed in the document we have supplied the committee. It will cost us approximately €1.5 million per year. We can manage it. As other channels come on board, part of the cost will be defrayed.

watty

I think it will be costed as part of DTT as it's not promoted as platform of itself but Fill in and Backup feed for ALL the TX sites. Being on Saorsat isn't optional for DTT channels.

So it has to be a copy of Saorview. 1.5M extra for fill in is much cheaper than the terrestrial TX costs. There won't be an "extra charge". Roughtly 200K per channel p.a. compared to millions for DTT.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

There won't be an "extra charge".

That's not what Conor Hayes implied. Can't see TV3 being carried FOC if at all on Saorsat.

Saorsat as a backup for the PSB channels yes, for commercial channel TV3 - only if they choose to pay and based on their track record on analogue I'm not holding my breath.

watty

They can't use it as a cheap backup easily without it simply having everything (a Transport stream copy). The extra cost is a fraction of what extra DTT transmitters would be. I think you are reading too much into what he says.

Yes, TV3 have to pay to be on DTT. Unlike Analogue it will be all or nothing carriage charge and less than what TV3 pays now. TV3 and TV3e are proposed to be part of PSB Mux, Saorview, not on the Commercial PayTV Mux.

With Analogue full coverage of a channel is the electric and maintence for an entire transmitter at about 170 sites plus entire feed of aprox 22Mbps per channel on main sites.

With Digital full coverage of a channel is only about 1/10th of the cost of one transmitter at 51 sites plus about 1/10th of cost of approx 25Mbps per Mux.

So DTT is about 51/170 * 1/10 = 3% approx of cost of Analogue for Transmitter maintenance and electricity. Feed costs may be not be much cheaper as although it's about 1/8th per channel in bitrate, about x4 as many sites are fed (none by Rebroadcast/Transposing). There are also other costs I haven't written about. But the main ones are Spare parts, RTE NL staff (inc 24 x7 on call staff), electricity, maintenance and feeds. The big change is 51 x 2 = 102 transmitters for 9+ channels versus approximately 170 x 4 = 680 transmitters for 4 channels. The DTT in many cases may be lower power than Analogue is. You would not like RTE NL's electric bill.

If Satellite DVB-S2 carries copies of the MPEG-TS used for DTT (Done already in some countries), then the backup feed per Multiplex is an single satellite receiver with the TS carried on a single coax cable in ASI format direct to an automatic change over switch on Modulator that detects fail of fibre/Microwave feed. If the Saorsat isn't a copy then there has to be a very expensive TS DeMultiplexer /Multiplexer for each Multiplex transmitter. Also it's not acceptable to lose a channel or two on the PSB muxes in event of failure of feed.

If there was a payTV operator, then they would have separate Commercial Multiplexes and the PayTV operator would have to pay for satellite. If there are ever Commercial Multiplexes, those are NOT automatically on Saorsat as they are not part of Saorview.

It's not like Freeview and Freesat which are different platforms with different content actually run by different people.

I could be wrong, but I'll be very very surprised if my interpretation is wrong.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

They can't use it as a cheap backup easily without it simply having everything (a Transport stream copy). The extra cost is a fraction of what extra DTT transmitters would be. I think you are reading too much into what he says.

We have only one source of information for Saorsat, the RTÉ presentation to the Dáil committee. I think you are reading too much into your own interpretation.

I have quoted someone directly involved in the project* in relation to my interpretation and he has said RTÉ's Saorsat costs will reduce as other channels join the service i.e. they will pay their own costs. Can't see how you can read anything further into that.

(*Conor Hayes is a director of RTÉNL & CFO of RTÉ)

watty

I think there is a difference between RTEcosts and RTE NL costs.

RTE NL costs are fixed. They are not lower or reduced by TV3.

RTE (broadcaster) costs are lower if TV3 and TG4 are paying RTE NL also? That can only be true if RTE NL are paying for full copy of Saorview Transport Streams on Satellite, whether TV3 and/or TV3e are in them or not.

So I think we have been at cross purposes. Perhaps I'm reading too much into my own interpretation. I know more about how Distribution and RTE NL work than about how Dáil Committees or RTE the Broadcaster works.

It's not worth arguing as we may never actually know the answer.
We don't even know
"Public Launch" Date
When TV3 is going to join DTT
If TV3e will be on it at all
If Ka-Sat will work and thus Saorsat
Start of Saorsat service

The Cush

watty wrote: »

It's not worth arguing as we may never actually know the answer.

If everything goes to plan we should know around Q2 next year.

Sam Russell

The Cush wrote: »

If everything goes to plan we should know around Q2 next year.

I think that is a quote from these threads of two years ago. We were expecting Boxer to say when they were to launch about then, with a possible launch by Q1 2008, or perhaps Q2, 2008, if everything went to plan.

Deja Vu, or is that a Freeview channel?

Apogee

Some patent info which points where Eutelsat may be going with Ka-band.


http://lotfykamal.com/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=94&Itemid=111

Microwave frequency satellite signal reception installation
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2010/0088729.html

endakenny

The Cush wrote: »

Can't see TV3 being carried FOC if at all on Saorsat.

What does FOC mean?

St Senan

Free Of Charge

Peter Henderson

scaller wrote: »

Free Of Charge

Is that the same as free to air or the same as free to view ?

Don't forget that free to air and free to view are both free of charge, in theory.

Peter Henderson

Deja Vu, or is that a Freeview channel?

It's an album by Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young !

Apogee

Peter Henderson wrote: »

Is that the same as free to air or the same as free to view ?

Don't forget that free to air and free to view are both free of charge, in theory.

FTA or FTV are not relevant to whether TV3 will be uplinked by RTÉNL free-of-charge or not. The channels will be transmitted FTA on Saorsat regardless of whether that includes TV3 or not. No point going on Ka-band otherwise.