Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

LXFlyer

Daytime on weekdays it is expected to be:

Brides Glen-Parnell
Sandyford-Broombridge

Evenings, and on Sundays they should all be Brides Glen-Broombridge

But again that could all change!

Stephen15

lxflyer wrote: »

Daytime on weekdays it is expected to be:

Brides Glen-Parnell
Sandyford-Broombridge

Evenings, and on Sundays they should all be Brides Glen-Broombridge

But again that could all change!

Would Bride's Glen to Broombridge and Sandyford to Parnell not make more sense as trams could come directly from Broombridge Depot

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

Daytime on weekdays it is expected to be:
Brides Glen-Parnell
Sandyford-Broombridge

Maybe it's just me but terminating at Parnell feels like a poor choice. It's very close to the city centre and means half the NB trams through the city centre are no use to most people. I could understand a shuttle from Broadstone to Charlemont to provide extra capacity through the city centre but they used to do this to Heuston and dropped that.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

Maybe it's just me but terminating at Parnell feels like a poor choice. It's very close to the city centre and means half the NB trams through the city centre are no use to most people. I could understand a shuttle from Broadstone to Charlemont to provide extra capacity through the city centre but they used to do this to Heuston and dropped that.

Well the turnback is going to be at Parnell - that much is already decided. There is no provision for it to be elsewhere.

Not running the extra trams from Sandyford and only having the extras between Broadstone and Charlemont would be crazy - you would be causing a massive reduction in the existing Green Line capacity.

All along the planners have felt that the main demand on the revised Green Line is from the existing Green Line to the City Centre, and not on the northern section from there to Broombridge. Half the northbound trams will already be full with Green Line passengers travelling further into the city centre, so they will hardly be of "no use" and will then immediately address the demand travelling south again from Parnell.

Stephen15

Will there not trams aswell going from SSG to Broombridge and also trams that will still only go from BG to SSG

LXFlyer

Stephen15 wrote: »

Will there not trams aswell going from SSG to Broombridge and also trams that will still only go from BG to SSG

No.

The only turning points for trams from Broombridge will be Sandyford or Brides Glen, while trams from the south can turn at St Stephen's Green, Parnell and Broombridge.

When there are events/protests/marches on O'Connell Street, trams can turn back at Dominick Street from Broombridge and St Stephen's Green from the south.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

No it isn't - there's always a gap in the people standing in the aisle alongside the entrance to the seating areas (where the seats directly face one another) as there is nothing to hold onto.

Ok fair enough but realistically a gap is needed to allow people in and out.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Ok fair enough but realistically a gap is needed to allow people in and out.

Absolutely - I don't think that having people standing there is a good idea myself.

LeinsterDub

https://www.luascrosscity.ie/announcements/major-milestone-luas-cross-city-project-landmark-gauge-run-test-successfully-completed/

Gauge run video

lucernarian

lxflyer wrote: »

All along the planners have felt that the main demand on the revised Green Line is from the existing Green Line to the City Centre, and not on the northern section from there to Broombridge. Half the northbound trams will already be full with Green Line passengers travelling further into the city centre, so they will hardly be of "no use" and will then immediately address the demand travelling south again from Parnell.

I'm not sure if that is a well-founded "feeling".

Is the split between Brides Glen and Sandyford to remain 50/50?

My own feeling is the market from the very densely-populated north inner city and Cabra will be much bigger than the current market between Cherrywood and Sandyford.

You'd assume there won't be any trams held for arriving western commuter trains at Broombridge, so lengthy off-peak waits will really limit the utility of the transfer opportunity.

Jamie2k9

lucernarian wrote: »

I'm not sure if that is a well-founded "feeling".

Is the split between Brides Glen and Sandyford to remain 50/50?

My own feeling is the market from the very densely-populated north inner city and Cabra will be much bigger than the current market between Cherrywood and Sandyford.

You'd assume there won't be any trams held for arriving western commuter trains at Broombridge, so lengthy off-peak waits will really limit the utility of the transfer opportunity.

I'm sure no plan is finalized, it will take a few weeks if not months for them to gauge passenger patterns and adjust accordingly.

LXFlyer

lucernarian wrote: »

I'm not sure if that is a well-founded "feeling".

Is the split between Brides Glen and Sandyford to remain 50/50?

My own feeling is the market from the very densely-populated north inner city and Cabra will be much bigger than the current market between Cherrywood and Sandyford.

You'd assume there won't be any trams held for arriving western commuter trains at Broombridge, so lengthy off-peak waits will really limit the utility of the transfer opportunity.

Well that's the entire philosophy behind the business case for the project that's all I can say.

I've said all along that, given the fare penalty and the potential for long waits off-peak (especially given the locality and lack of facilities), that I don't see huge numbers transferring at Broombridge off-peak (even if the rail frequency was increased to every 30 minutes). Would you want to spend time there rather than a city centre rail station?

Trams are timetabled separately from trains, so no they won't be waiting there!

Time will tell - it'll be interesting to see what kind of modal switch there is in the Cabra area.

I'd expect that the split at the southern end will remain 50/50 (with some additional peak Sandyford to St Stephen's Green services) - demand is strong enough from Leopardstown Valley inwards.

markpb

lucernarian wrote: »

My own feeling is the market from the very densely-populated north inner city and Cabra will be much bigger than the current market between Cherrywood and Sandyford.

That may be true now but the area between Cherrywood and Sandyford will see huge population rises over the next ten years. The only question is how many of them will use the Luas (or public transport at all).

AlanG

lxflyer wrote: »

I've said all along that, given the fare penalty and the potential for long waits off-peak (especially given the locality and lack of facilities), that I don't see huge numbers transferring at Broombridge off-peak (even if the rail frequency was increased to every 30 minutes). Would you want to spend time there rather than a city centre rail station?

I think the fare penalty will really hold back usage at Broom bridge. The extra 300 to get Luas on the annual ticket will put people off which is a shame as a single price would really open up options for people to use more of the trains that terminate in Docklands and Connolly.

LXFlyer

AlanG wrote: »

I think the fare penalty will really hold back usage at Broom bridge. The extra 300 to get Luas on the annual ticket will put people off which is a shame as a single price would really open up options for people to use more of the trains that terminate in Docklands and Connolly.

It's not just that - many people on the Maynooth line using pay-as-you-go can get to Pearse for the same price as to Broombridge - why pay a 2-zone LUAS fare (albeit with EUR1 discount) on top of that to get to the city centre?

They don't even come close to the fare cap as it is so this would be a real penalty.

L1011

lxflyer wrote: »

It's not just that - many people on the Maynooth line using pay-as-you-go can get to Pearse for the same price as to Broombridge - why pay a 2-zone LUAS fare (albeit with EUR1 discount) on top of that to get to the city centre?

They don't even come close to the fare cap as it is so this would be a real penalty.

Pearse is in an awkward location and IE refuse to leave the second entrance/exit from Tara open most of the time so if you don't want to walk and you're going to the south city centre, transferring isn't that difficult.

There's plenty of people who sail close to the weekly Irish Rail cap (who should really be on annuals, but don't) just from Maynooth line commuting - the small distance up to the all modes cap won't kill them.

LXFlyer

L1011 wrote: »

Pearse is in an awkward location and IE refuse to leave the second entrance/exit from Tara open most of the time so if you don't want to walk and you're going to the south city centre, transferring isn't that difficult.

There's plenty of people who sail close to the weekly Irish Rail cap (who should really be on annuals, but don't) just from Maynooth line commuting - the small distance up to the all modes cap won't kill them.

Ah come on - it's not that hard to walk out of Tara St to O'Connell Bridge and the surrounding areas - you make it sound like an ordeal.

Anyone commuting from Clonsilla inwards and only using the railway Monday-Friday is only paying €24.60 to get to the city centre - that's a lot less than the €37 rail only cap, and those from Leixlip are paying €29.30 per week. The majority of commuters don't travel on public transport seven days a week. That's a lot of people well below the cap.

MJohnston

It's Maynooth/M3 Parkway commuters who want to reach out of city areas served by the Green Line who will want to change at Broombridge, heading to and from Sandyford offices for example. Those numbers might be small at the minute, but I think it'll provide a bit of extra potential for that to happen.

Stephen15

markpb wrote: »

That may be true now but the area between Cherrywood and Sandyford will see huge population rises over the next ten years. The only question is how many of them will use the Luas (or public transport at all).

I'd say a decent number as when the Cherrywood development is complete having the Luas should be used as one of the main selling points espeically for cc workers.

lucernarian

MJohnston wrote: »

It's Maynooth/M3 Parkway commuters who want to reach out of city areas served by the Green Line who will want to change at Broombridge, heading to and from Sandyford offices for example. Those numbers might be small at the minute, but I think it'll provide a bit of extra potential for that to happen.

Yes indeed, I can forsee this happening.

There would be potential for a much bigger transfer if the pricing and station layout wasn't so unhelpful for transfer passengers. Maybe there'll be a shift towards SHZ + luas annual tickets on the western commuter line but that will require it being a logistically preferable option without long waits at Broombridge.

LXFlyer

Unless there is a massive increase in service levels on the Maynooth line outside of peak hour, who in the their right mind would want to wait at Broombridge for up to 30 minutes (assuming rail frequency is increased to every 30 mins off-peak)?

Indeed potential long waits could exist even on the shoulders of the peak.

Without being a clairvoyant it's going to be very difficult to judge when you would need to be on a tram by to catch a particular train, and then if there are issues with the rail service (which there can be), the option of going for a bus won't be possible as it is in the city centre.

I still don't see the Rail/LUAS combination being preferable to driving from say stations in the Blanchardstown area or railway stations further out to Sandyford/Cherrywood - it's still going to take much longer than driving along the M50.

fxotoole

I'm commuting every day from Kilcock to Harcourt Street. A few of my neighbours also work in this area. I can see a good few people from Kilcock changing at Broombridge to avoid the hassle of going all the way to Pearse, just to get to Stephen's Green/Harcourt Street.

It's a pain getting the train to Pearse because that train doesn't bring you anywhere near where you want to be, and Luas Cross City will be a lot more direct, will cut out all the hassle associated with having to change in Connolly, and will bring me a lot closer to Harcourt Street. Plus if the predicted travel time from Broombridge to Harcourt Street is accurate, I calculate that it will cut 20 mins off my commute. I'll gladly pay the extra few hundred quid to have Luas included in the annual ticket, just so I can change at Broombridge.

Chivito550

lxflyer wrote: »

Well that's the entire philosophy behind the business case for the project that's all I can say.

I've said all along that, given the fare penalty and the potential for long waits off-peak (especially given the locality and lack of facilities), that I don't see huge numbers transferring at Broombridge off-peak (even if the rail frequency was increased to every 30 minutes). Would you want to spend time there rather than a city centre rail station?

Trams are timetabled separately from trains, so no they won't be waiting there!

Time will tell - it'll be interesting to see what kind of modal switch there is in the Cabra area.

I'd expect that the split at the southern end will remain 50/50 (with some additional peak Sandyford to St Stephen's Green services) - demand is strong enough from Leopardstown Valley inwards.

Maynooth/M3 Parkway frequencies are a lot better in the morning though. The interchange in Broombridge could be very useful for somebody living in city centre (not near a train, but near a LUAS) or south side needing to get to work out in business parks out in Blanchardstown area.

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

Maynooth/M3 Parkway frequencies are a lot better in the morning though. The interchange in Broombridge could be very useful for somebody living in city centre (not near a train, but near a LUAS) or south side needing to get to work out in business parks out in Blanchardstown area.

It's not the morning that I'm thinking of - it's the return journey later in the day where people would be going to get a train from Broombridge - it's going to be that little bit more difficult to judge when to be on a tram, especially if you're going to somewhere beyond Clonsilla where you need to be on a specific train. If you miss it, particularly on a winter's evening, Broombridge won't be the nicest place to have to wait for the next one.

As for going to business parks in Blanch - can you point me to any that are near the railway? Most of them are miles from it, with no bus connections. I don't see that happening really.

I'm not trying to be unduly negative here at all, just looking at this from a practical perspective.

Chivito550

lxflyer wrote: »

It's not the morning that I'm thinking of - it's the return journey later in the day where people would be going to get a train from Broombridge - it's going to be that little bit more difficult to judge when to be on a tram, especially if you're going to somewhere beyond Clonsilla where you need to be on a specific train.

As for going to business parks in Blanch - can you point me to any that are near the railway? Most of them are miles from it, with no bus connections. I don't see that happening really.

I'm not trying to be unduly negative here at all, just looking at this from a practical perspective.

Apologies, you are correct re the business parks. I was getting mixed up with where the shopping centre is.

Somebody working at Stephens Green, Harcourt St, Sandyford etc, living in Castleknock would be very happy with the connection at Broombridge. Looking at the times of trains at Broombridge heading to Castleknock, I don't foresee much waiting around heading home from work:

17:24, 17:32, 17:37, 17:53, 18:02, 18:19, 18:28, 18:36, 18:46, 19:02, 19:19, 19:32

12 trains in just over 2 hours. I think people will manage that fine.

More importantly, having the connection in place now is the right move for if and when they actually build DART Underground and extend the LUAS to Finglas. Broombridge will become a key hub if that happens. Better to build the connection now rather than try fix it in years to come.

Zebra3

Problems with switching at Broombridge are:

En route to city, trying to judge if the train will be stopped between Drumcondra and Connolly.

Leaving the city, not being stuck for an eternity waiting for a Maynooth/M3 bound train.

For both, dealing with delays caused by the reopening of the PPT.

Sadly the interchange at Broombridge will be not much more than add a nice look to the Dublin area's PT map, but in reality for the short-term (or more) it'll be of little practical use. Sadly.

Chivito550

Zebra3 wrote: »

Problems with switching at Broombridge are:

En route to city, trying to judge if the train will be stopped between Drumcondra and Connolly.

Leaving the city, not being stuck for an eternity waiting for a Maynooth/M3 bound train.

For both, dealing with delays caused by the reopening of the PPT.

Sadly the interchange at Broombridge will be not much more than add a nice look to the Dublin area's PT map, but in reality for the short-term (or more) it'll be of little practical use. Sadly.

So somebody living between Broombridge and Clonsilla who is studying in DIT or who is working at Stephen's Green/Harcourt/Charlement or working in Sandyford without the luxury of owning a car wouldn't use this connection? It's by far a better connection than any bus connections in this city anyway.

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

It's not the morning that I'm thinking of - it's the return journey later in the day where people would be going to get a train from Broombridge - it's going to be that little bit more difficult to judge when to be on a tram, especially if you're going to somewhere beyond Clonsilla where you need to be on a specific train. If you miss it, particularly on a winter's evening, Broombridge won't be the nicest place to have to wait for the next one.

As for going to business parks in Blanch - can you point me to any that are near the railway? Most of them are miles from it, with no bus connections. I don't see that happening really.

I'm not trying to be unduly negative here at all, just looking at this from a practical perspective.

Ah but you see, you're kind of just writing off that morning journey there, no? There's plenty could use that connection in the morning from Maynooth to Green Line (presumably some will be heading that direction in the evening if they work at Intel or HP too), and a different mode in the evening to come home.

L1011

lxflyer wrote: »

Ah come on - it's not that hard to walk out of Tara St to O'Connell Bridge and the surrounding areas - you make it sound like an ordeal.

Anyone commuting from Clonsilla inwards and only using the railway Monday-Friday is only paying €24.60 to get to the city centre - that's a lot less than the €37 rail only cap, and those from Leixlip are paying €29.30 per week. The majority of commuters don't travel on public transport seven days a week. That's a lot of people well below the cap.

You don't seem to like actual issues being pointed out

Closing the South entrance to Tara reduces it's useful catchment area significantly. It is a longer walk as a result to the main shopping and entertainment areas of the southside. It needs to stay open longer or all hours and consistently too

Stephen15

In fairness one of the good points about Dublin's public transport system is you can get to that you can get to the actual cc by oveground rail I know Hueston involves a bus/luas journey but most cities I've been have had their rail terminuses including suburban rail a good bit out of the cc but you hop on a good bus/tram/metro to get to the actual cc.