Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

Jamie2k9

Given the turnout will be rarely used, can't the bright sparks in TII and whoever else are looking after it have a word with Transdev, I am sure they will have no issue leaving a small area filled in with prehaps a piece of shaped wood (with of cycle lane) which can be easily removed if they need to use it.

murphaph

Cyclists just have to be careful around tram tracks. There are countless examples of junctions like this in Berlin (service connections for trams that are rarely used) and cyclists manage to negotiate them without coming off. A slight adjustment of the angle of attack is needed to make sure your wheels don't go into the groove.

BonnieSituation

murphaph wrote: »

Cyclists just have to be careful around tram tracks. There are countless examples of junctions like this in Berlin (service connections for trams that are rarely used) and cyclists manage to negotiate them without coming off. A slight adjustment of the angle of attack is needed to make sure your wheels don't go into the groove.

Have to agree with ya. Similar scenario in Amsterdam where cyclist and tram track are in constant contact at varying degrees. Never had issues and tbh, it never even occurred to me as one. When you're cycling you have to approach things sensibly. This OCS "problem" isn't and won't be such a big deal as this article is trying to make out.

If you know that there's tracks on the road on which you're cycling then you have to adjust how you're going to be cycling on that stretch.

Much ado about nothing. Once it's all up and running it won't even be an issue for those cycling on OCS.

fxotoole

Exactly, I don't see the big issue here. Cyclists just need to adjust accordingly.

LeinsterDub

BonnieSituation wrote: »

. This OCS "problem" isn't and won't be such a big deal as this article is trying to make out.

It's not the article that says there a potential issues it's a report conducted by the NTA

BonnieSituation

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It's not the article that says there a potential issues it's a report conducted by the NTA

The article is reporting on the report. Does it really matter?

SPDUB

Quackster wrote: »

The issue with OC St northbound is the service track linking the two Luas lines which curves left from OC St onto Abbey St and the risk of cyclists' tyres getting caught in the grooves of said service track as they won't be crossing this track at right angles.

This issue doesn't arise yet as these grooves are temporarily filled in.

Those grooves have been uncovered for weeks and if you are going straight ahead i.e. cycling past Eason and the GPO they are at enough of an angle that I haven't found them particularly problematic

Now if you making a left turn into Abbey st you might have a problem but I'm not convinced it's a major one

MJohnston

murphaph wrote: »

Cyclists just have to be careful around tram tracks. There are countless examples of junctions like this in Berlin (service connections for trams that are rarely used) and cyclists manage to negotiate them without coming off. A slight adjustment of the angle of attack is needed to make sure your wheels don't go into the groove.

Easier said than done - OCS is crowded with Dublin buses, tour buses, coaches, taxis, and pedestrians who don't wait for green crossing lights. Cycling in Dublin generally requires a lot of awareness of your surroundings, but on OCS this is much more true and you need to have eyes everywhere, and this is before you add in the Luas. Saying "adjust your angle of attack" is all well and good, but it's not a practical suggestion a lot of the time, in a way that's really hard to understand unless you've cycled it regularly yourself.

I'd avoid OCS completely myself, but I'd imagine there are some who need to access parts of the city where it is the only option.

LeinsterDub

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The article is reporting on the report. Does it really matter?

It matters as a random article in the press should be taken with a pinch of salt while an official report by the NTA carries more weight

BonnieSituation

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It matters as a random article in the press should be taken with a pinch of salt while an official report by the NTA carries more weight

It's not "random". It wasn't like a million monkeys were given a million typewriters here. Though the quality of the IT has gone down drastically in the last decade.

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So you have an opinion on my opinion. Grand.

I still think it's much ado about nothing and it will come to pass that things will be fine.

NuMarvel

Saw this in the DART Expansion thread and figured it might be relevant here too, in the context of the interchange with Boombridge:

Zebra3 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-rail-plans-move-to-electrichybrid-fleet-35892464.html

IE saying their preference is DART to Maynooth first, before Balbriggan.

LeinsterDub

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's not "random". It wasn't like a million monkeys were given a million typewriters here. Though the quality of the IT has gone down drastically in the last decade.

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So you have an opinion on my opinion. Grand.

I still think it's much ado about nothing and it will come to pass that things will be fine.

You're being ridiculous now most people would agree that a Report by the NTA carries more weight than an article by any media source no matter how creditable

BonnieSituation

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You're being ridiculous now most people would agree that a Report by the NTA carries more weight than an article by any media source no matter how creditable

You're being ridiculous in fairness. Let's look at my original post where your knickers started to twist...

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BonnieSituation wrote: »

Have to agree with ya. Similar scenario in Amsterdam where cyclist and tram track are in constant contact at varying degrees. Never had issues and tbh, it never even occurred to me as one. When you're cycling you have to approach things sensibly. This OCS "problem" isn't and won't be such a big deal as this article is trying to make out.

If you know that there's tracks on the road on which you're cycling then you have to adjust how you're going to be cycling on that stretch.

Much ado about nothing. Once it's all up and running it won't even be an issue for those cycling on OCS.

Assuming it's the emboldened part you took umbrage with based on your subsequent post....

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It's not the article that says there a potential issues it's a report conducted by the NTA

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How did you suddenly construe in ALL that I wrote that I had given more "weight" to an article rather than a report.

Someone posted a link to an article which was reporting on the NTA report.

The content of both which are making out that the interfacing of cyclists and tracks is a far bigger deal than I think they will end up being.

Why concentrate on my usage of the word "article". It matters not. You either think the NTA and the blown up article are right or they are not.


The NTA are highlighting potential issues (which I think are minor) and the article reporting on that report are blowing it out of proportion (which I obviously think is ridiculous). And you are still going on about what I "wrote".

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So moving on... do you think Henry St will be a no-go are for cyclists? Or will we have to put Stephen15 on watch for all the "illegal cycling" that will occur at that junction come December-ish?

LeinsterDub

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So moving on... do you think Henry St will be a no-go are for cyclists? Or will we have to put Stephen15 on watch for all the "illegal cycling" that will occur at that junction come December-ish?

Will Henry St becoming a no-go area ? I think that's quite a hyperbolic statement in fairness however the OCS area certainly has become more challenging to cyclist and perhaps more dangerous.

ArmaniJeanss

I think OCS will be fine for cycling once the current roadwork barriers are removed. Most cyclists will be in the left lane and the tram lines shouldn't be an issue.
Only bit I'd be wary of is the left turn at the top into Parnell, very important there to stay as left as possible as if you go a metre towards the centre you'll be horribly parallel with the tram line and will crash. Pedestrians tend to move forward at these lights and impinge on the junction, making it difficult to stay as far left as needed.

BonnieSituation

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Will Henry St becoming a no-go area ? I think that's quite a hyperbolic statement in fairness however the OCS area certainly has become more challenging to cyclist and perhaps more dangerous.

It is a very hyperbolic statement alright. Delighted I didn't make it.

It has become more challenging. But in no way is it beyond impossible.

I have little need to use OCS when I'm cycling, in either direction and tbh would have always avoided it and used Capel or Gardiner depending on where I was off to or coming from. I think it will all be fine once the trams are in operation.

MJohnston

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I think OCS will be fine for cycling once the current roadwork barriers are removed. Most cyclists will be in the left lane and the tram lines shouldn't be an issue.
Only bit I'd be wary of is the left turn at the top into Parnell, very important there to stay as left as possible as if you go a metre towards the centre you'll be horribly parallel with the tram line and will crash. Pedestrians tend to move forward at these lights and impinge on the junction, making it difficult to stay as far left as needed.

As I've said, it's not just about the tramlines, it's about all the other changes that the Luas will mean. Much more traffic on the left lane, an addition mechanical threat added to the road, pedestrians being their usual crazy jaywalking-without-looking selves, etc.

DCC needs to get on board with the idea of contra-flow cycle lanes, and we need them on parallel routes to OCS so that cyclists don't have to use that street.

Chivito550

MJohnston wrote: »

Piece is behind paywall, but I presume it means that cyclists won't be able to get near Henry Street - as in they won't be able to cycle on O'Connell Street with the Luas operating. Not about them cycling on Henry St.

Luas will definitely make things a lot more dangerous here for cyclists, not that OCS was ever particularly safe.

How do they manage in Amsterdam, where everyone cycles, and they've a way more extensive tram network?

BonnieSituation

Chivito550 wrote: »

How do they manage in Amsterdam, where everyone cycles, and they've a way more extensive tram network?

With little difficulty and a big pile of cop on.

MJohnston

Chivito550 wrote: »

How do they manage in Amsterdam, where everyone cycles, and they've a way more extensive tram network?

I don't know Amsterdam, but given how much they supply proper cycling infrastructure in that city, I'd imagine they manage because they have proper bike lanes, and alternate routes away from tram sections. Dublin has neither.

BonnieSituation

MJohnston wrote: »

I don't know Amsterdam, but given how much they supply proper cycling infrastructure in that city, I'd imagine they manage because they have proper bike lanes, and alternate routes away from tram sections. Dublin has neither.

At almost every junction in the Dam in the city core you have to cross tracks at various angles. Bike lanes or not this is still something you have to be careful of. It really isn't that hard to "be careful".

MJohnston

BonnieSituation wrote: »

At almost every junction in the Dam in the city core you have to cross tracks at various angles. Bike lanes or not this is still something you have to be careful of. It really isn't that hard to "be careful".

And how much bus and car traffic do you have to deal with also?

No offence, but if all you have to offer to this debate is "be careful" that's a rather worthless contribution. You think Dublin cyclists don't already have to be careful every second they're in the city centre?

BonnieSituation

MJohnston wrote: »

No offence, but if all you have to offer to this debate is "be careful" that's a rather worthless contribution. You think Dublin cyclists don't already have to be careful every second they're in the city centre?

Offence taken. Sometimes what seems so simple isn't always facetious.

Dublin cyclists will be fine once Luas(i) are trundling down OCS.

MJohnston wrote: »

And how much bus and car traffic do you have to deal with also?

Actually loads when crossing these junctions and on non-segregated streets. Not every street in Amsterdam is segregated, but people get on fine. It's amazing what being aware and being careful will do for ya re safety.

There's actually a big pile of stuff out there on Dutch traffic management theory/psychology which is great to read. In a lot of cases safety is improved by interfacing various modes together as it removes barriers that increase carelessness and speed and forces all road users to "be careful".

Tom Vanderbilt wrote a book about it a few years back that is a great read (if you're into that sort of thing).

http://tomvanderbilt.com/the-book/

So yeah, far from being facetious my inputs are based on experience and the fact that the no. 1 priority for all users is to cop on.

MJohnston

Ah yes, so what is a cyclist to do in a city like Dublin where most of the other road users and pedestrians (and some fellow cyclists) aren't being careful? Ultimately a lot of your safety as a cyclist is out of your hands.

My argument is simply that "being careful" is far from good enough on OCS (and preempts the idea that cyclists are to blame for any accidents they get into), and that the opening of the Luas (or indeed just the addition of the unfilled lines) is a marked decrease in safety. And following from that, this could be mitigated if DCC actually provided capable and safe cycling infrastructure, whether that be degraded bike paths on OCS, or improved access to parallel routes. Do you disagree with this?

LXFlyer

Let's be honest, this is just yet another example of a lack of proper planning for the LUAS BXD, in much the same way as there is no real planning for how to deal with the bus routes post LUAS BXD other than trial and error.

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

Let's be honest, this is just yet another example of a lack of proper planning for the LUAS BXD, in much the same way as there is no real planning for how to deal with the bus routes post LUAS BXD other than trial and error.

Heh, to me that's optimistic. I think these issues likely did come up during planning and were summarily ignored by whatever government authority was calling the shots. At least, I think that's far more likely to be the case with cycling provision, but I'm sure they pay little heed to bus needs either.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Heh, to me that's optimistic. I think these issues likely did come up during planning and were summarily ignored by whatever government authority was calling the shots. At least, I think that's far more likely to be the case with cycling provision, but I'm sure they pay little heed to bus needs either.

Well as I've posted numerous times, this should all have formed an intrinsic part of the planning approval process for BXD - it's shameful that we are at this point without a final plan.

markpb

BonnieSituation wrote: »

At almost every junction in the Dam in the city core you have to cross tracks at various angles. Bike lanes or not this is still something you have to be careful of. It really isn't that hard to "be careful".

The fixes that are mentioned in the NTA report are relatively subtle, i.e. infill tracks at certain places, specific angles used at junctions, etc. It seems quite likely that even someone familiar with Amsterdam might not be aware that these things were taken into account and might just attribute the low rate of accidents to cyclists simply "being careful".

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

Let's be honest, this is just yet another example of a lack of proper planning for the LUAS BXD, in much the same way as there is no real planning for how to deal with the bus routes post LUAS BXD other than trial and error.

Cyclists wont be happy until cars, buses, trams and people are off the streets!

markpb

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Cyclists wont be happy until cars, buses, trams and people are off the streets!

Isn't this true of every mode of transport? Great contribution!