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Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

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    #2942
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,687 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    markpb wrote: »
    Isn't this true of every mode of transport? Great contribution!

    Nope, all you hear from cyclists is moan, moan and moan. Other modes just get on with it.


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    #2943
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,269 ✭✭✭markpb


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Nope, all you hear from cyclists is moan, moan and moan. Other modes just get on with it.

    That is the most brazenly wrong thing I've seen on boards in a very long time!

    Motorists complain about the state of the roads, paying motor tax, paying insurance, congestion, cyclists on the road and cyclists running red lights and pedestrians stepping out in front of them, crossing the road slowly or pressing the button at pedestrian lights but crossing before they go green. Bus passengers complain about waiting for buses, buses not turning up, unfriendly bus drivers, congestion, idiot drivers using the bus lane illegally, cyclists delaying the bus and taxi drivers parked in the bus lane or bus stop. Pedestrians complain about traffic, about crossing the road, about other road users breaking red lights, about the state of footpaths. I could go on but you really need to try harder.

    Also, it might have escaped you but this particular gripe was raised by the National Transport Authority, not any cyclist.


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    #2944
    Quackster
    Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 5,760 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quackster


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Nope, all you hear from cyclists is moan, moan and moan. Other modes just get on with it.

    As someone who's a motorist, cyclist, pedestrian and public transport user, this 'us v them' ****e that's constantly being trotted out is getting beyond tedious.


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    #2945
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,687 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    markpb wrote: »
    That is the most brazenly wrong thing I've seen on boards in a very long time!

    Motorists complain about the state of the roads, paying motor tax, paying insurance, congestion, cyclists on the road and cyclists running red lights and pedestrians stepping out in front of them, crossing the road slowly or pressing the button at pedestrian lights but crossing before they go green. Bus passengers complain about waiting for buses, buses not turning up, unfriendly bus drivers, congestion, idiot drivers using the bus lane illegally, cyclists delaying the bus and taxi drivers parked in the bus lane or bus stop. Pedestrians complain about traffic, about crossing the road, about other road users breaking red lights, about the state of footpaths. I could go on but you really need to try harder.

    Also, it might have escaped you but this particular gripe was raised by the National Transport Authority, not any cyclist.

    What the NTA suddenly taught about it 4 years lather, somebody will of raised it with them.
    As someone who's a motorist, cyclist, pedestrian and public transport user, this 'us v them' ****e that's constantly being trotted out is getting beyond tedious.

    No disagreeing but just about everything we hear about cyclists is calls for x y and z. It's not half as bad with the rest.


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    #2946
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,925 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Quackster wrote: »
    As someone who's a motorist, cyclist, pedestrian and public transport user, this 'us v them' ****e that's constantly being trotted out is getting beyond tedious.

    Snap on that.


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    #2947
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,925 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Ah yes, so what is a cyclist to do in a city like Dublin where most of the other road users and pedestrians (and some fellow cyclists) aren't being careful? Ultimately a lot of your safety as a cyclist is out of your hands.

    My argument is simply that "being careful" is far from good enough on OCS (and preempts the idea that cyclists are to blame for any accidents they get into), and that the opening of the Luas (or indeed just the addition of the unfilled lines) is a marked decrease in safety. And following from that, this could be mitigated if DCC actually provided capable and safe cycling infrastructure, whether that be degraded bike paths on OCS, or improved access to parallel routes. Do you disagree with this?

    That's not a uniquely Dublin phenomenon.

    My argument is simply that the absolute ballache of planning has us where we are and that the points raised by the NTA's report whilst worthy of consideration aren't exactly the most earthshattering in observation.

    It will turn out to be not the most insurmountable of obstacles for cyclists using OCS.

    When Luas launched in 2004 similar conversatons of "think of the poor cyclists" when it came to the interfaces of them and the tracks. Let's be honest was there an upswing of cyclist injuries as a result of the tracks now suddenly in their way? No, there wasn't and in the 13 years since people have just learned to live with this situation. In fact the only time I have seen a person fall on a bike at the Luas track has been in that section from Queen St to Church St.
    That's stupidity and bad cycling and a cyclist "not being careful".

    markpb wrote: »
    The fixes that are mentioned in the NTA report are relatively subtle, i.e. infill tracks at certain places, specific angles used at junctions, etc. It seems quite likely that even someone familiar with Amsterdam might not be aware that these things were taken into account and might just attribute the low rate of accidents to cyclists simply "being careful".

    Do you honestly think that the areas in which infill might be useful are so impossible to navigate with a bike? I don't get the hullaballoo here.


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    #2948
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Nope, all you hear from cyclists is moan, moan and moan. Other modes just get on with it.

    Its the same with a lot of motorists and some bus users but rail and luas users don't complain so much as they don't share the roadspace with other users.


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    #2949
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,687 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Deedsie wrote: »
    I'm a cyclist and a motorist. What do I want?

    100 million investment by 2020...


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    #2950
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,492 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: Can we cut the anti cycle nonsense. This is about BXD cross city Luas.

    Please restrict posts to Luas.

    Thankyou.


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    #2951
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,894 ✭✭✭trellheim


    some pics

    Broadstone at the Gauging ( photo from Grangegorman FB )

    GuBJpA2.jpg

    and a pic I took from the NCR looking down at the station box on Tuesday it will be a tight squeeze !!!!

    kcJP9lN.jpg


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    #2952
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    trellheim wrote: »
    and a pic I took from the NCR looking down at the station box on Tuesday it will be a tight squeeze !!!!

    kcJP9lN.jpg

    Looks very like the Dart line between between DL and Dalkey hopefully it won't have similar speeds.


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    #2953
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,572 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Looks very like the Dart line between between DL and Dalkey hopefully it won't have similar speeds.

    It's a station so it'll be slow anyway.


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    #2954
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,690 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    I wonder if they could have recessed into the wall for increased platform width


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    #2955
    yer man!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭yer man!


    Or they could have put the platform in the middle like the one in busaras.


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    #2956
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    I've seen railway platforms on the continent where the two yellow lines nearly touch one another so I wouldn't worry about platform width too much.


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    #2957
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,861 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I've seen railway platforms on the continent where the two yellow lines nearly touch one another so I wouldn't worry about platform width too much.

    Looks incredibly narrow from those pics.


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    #2958
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,572 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    It'll not be the busiest stop in the world anyway, so I think it'll be fine. Looks about the same width as most platforms, just without space behind them.


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    #2959
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Looks incredibly narrow from those pics.

    Compared to these platforms in Italy they're actually quite wide


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    #2960
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,894 ✭✭✭trellheim


    PS Grangegorman have said they will open the thruway to the campus when the LUAS opens as well


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    #2961
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    yer man! wrote: »
    Or they could have put the platform in the middle like the one in busaras.

    Or staggered them like Jervis


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    #2962
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,861 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    MJohnston wrote: »
    It'll not be the busiest stop in the world anyway, so I think it'll be fine. Looks about the same width as most platforms, just without space behind them.

    What stop is it?


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    #2963
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,687 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Staggered platforms are dangerous, just look at the fools around Jervis daily.

    I suspect an island wasn't considered for accessibility reasons.


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    #2964
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,572 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    What stop is it?

    Not sure of the name, but it's between Cabra Road and NCR.


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    #2965
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,372 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Not sure of the name, but it's between Cabra Road and NCR.
    Phibsborough stop.

    https://www.luascrosscity.ie/whats-the-plan/stops/phibsborough/


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    #2966
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Staggered platforms are dangerous, just look at the fools around Jervis daily.

    I suspect an island wasn't considered for accessibility reasons.

    Err... what?

    The risk factors around Jervis has little or nothing to do with the staggered stops. It's mainly down to how busy the footpaths / stops are in a limited space and that problem would be worse with non-staggered stops.


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    #2967
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Offence taken. Sometimes what seems so simple isn't always facetious.

    Dublin cyclists will be fine once Luas(i) are trundling down OCS.



    Actually loads when crossing these junctions and on non-segregated streets. Not every street in Amsterdam is segregated, but people get on fine. It's amazing what being aware and being careful will do for ya re safety.

    There's actually a big pile of stuff out there on Dutch traffic management theory/psychology which is great to read. In a lot of cases safety is improved by interfacing various modes together as it removes barriers that increase carelessness and speed and forces all road users to "be careful".

    Tom Vanderbilt wrote a book about it a few years back that is a great read (if you're into that sort of thing).

    http://tomvanderbilt.com/the-book/

    So yeah, far from being facetious my inputs are based on experience and the fact that the no. 1 priority for all users is to cop on.

    What are you talking about?

    Where in Amsterdam are there anything like the (1) Parnell Street / O'Connell Street junction? (2) College Street / Pearse Street / etc junction? OR (3) the Parnell Street / Parnell Square? Or (4) the St Stephen's Green / Dawson Street junction? Or the Constitution Hill?

    Compared to Dublin there's feck all buses and Amsterdam has a hell of a lot of more space given over to bicycles, even on smaller streets.

    Amsterdam overall has more extensive segregated of trams from everything and more space given to cycling (both segregated and not).

    The only junction in Amsterdam that I can think of which even comes close to most of the cross city junctions is: (1) in a lower traffic area, including few buses, and (2) a known poor design which they plan to address and know was a mistake not to address 20 years or more ago.


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    #2968
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,687 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    monument wrote: »
    Err... what?

    The risk factors around Jervis has little or nothing to do with the staggered stops. It's mainly down to how busy the footpaths / stops are in a limited space and that problem would be worse with non-staggered stops.

    Busy footpaths, trams drivers can barley see what's coming from the right if there is a eastbound tram stopped there. It's a pretty dangerous set up and it's been busy just adds to the problem.


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    #2969
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,861 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    marno21 wrote: »
    Phibsborough stop.

    https://www.luascrosscity.ie/whats-the-plan/stops/phibsborough/

    Hmm. Dalymount Park is due to be redeveloped to a 10,000 all-seater stadium and DCC plan to hold concerts there which would have potentially bigger crowds, and that narrow station will be dealing with a lot of those crowds.....


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    #2970
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,269 ✭✭✭markpb


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Hmm. Dalymount Park is due to be redeveloped to a 10,000 all-seater stadium and DCC plan to hold concerts there which would have potentially bigger crowds, and that narrow station will be dealing with a lot of those crowds.....

    Manchester tram stop isn't much bigger, had trams direct to the intercity rail network and handles much bigger crowds. They just use crowd control outside the tram stop. Considering the relatively infrequent peak use of the stop, the proximity to the city centre and the significant cost of widening it, that's probably an acceptable compromise.


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    #2971
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,572 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Hmm. Dalymount Park is due to be redeveloped to a 10,000 all-seater stadium and DCC plan to hold concerts there which would have potentially bigger crowds, and that narrow station will be dealing with a lot of those crowds.....

    They could just do what Lansdowne used to do, close the Phibsboro stop and direct all the football crowds to the Cabra stop on Connacht Street, which is really close also, but much bigger.

    It's not like the Phibsboro stop could have been any bigger than it is!


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