Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

thomond2006

Foxtrol wrote: »

But actually do you really think the Irish management were begging Hayes to play in the last Autumn Internationals? That they begged him to start against the mighty Samoa (when he ended up being shoved around the park)?

Let me spin your question like this: Do you think Hayes begged to play?

irishbucsfan

Foxtrol wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The management pleaded with Hayes to stay on when he wanted to retire originally.

Absolutely no way he should be expected to do anything other than play for his country for as long as he can. It's not nor was it ever his or any other players job to develop young players. That's up to the management.

Well we differ here then. I see graceful retirement being a player realising that (possibly in spite what management say) you realise your time has come and that you’re holding back the team more than you’re bringing to it.

But actually do you really think the Irish management were begging Hayes to play in the last Autumn Internationals? That they begged him to start against the mighty Samoa (when he ended up being shoved around the park)?

Yes. They did. It was stated in the press (think it was Smal) around the time. They were very concerned about the potential lack of depth at the world cup, they had thought it would be Buckley/Hayes in 2011.

Should Brian O'Driscoll retire graciously? Or Paul O'Connell? They might see themselves as past their best. Mike Ross is getting on...

The idea John Hayes should walk away from an internatinal contract after his coaches have asked him to stay on is ludicrous to me.

Foxtrol

thomond2006 wrote: »

oh my god

Are you saying that if you're offered a central contract you wouldn't take it? It's not greed, it's bloody common sense. The management clearly felt he was worth it, blame them and not the Bull if you have an issue with it.

If I was given a central contract while reaching retirement age and was selected continuously, blocking better, younger players I would find it understandable that questions were raised to both management and to myself as to why I continue to play.

It’s like a former champion boxer who is at the end of his career and wont hang up his gloves despite being knocked out by amateurs. Do you blame the promoter who pays him to keep going or the boxer who doesn’t pack it in?

Foxtrol

Foxtrol wrote: »

If I was given a central contract while reaching retirement age and was selected continuously, blocking better, younger players I would find it understandable that questions were raised to both management and to myself as to why I continue to play.

It’s like a former champion boxer who is at the end of his career and wont hang up his gloves despite being knocked out by amateurs. Do you blame the promoter who pays him to keep going or the boxer who doesn’t pack it in?

should BOD just have retired after the WC?

Foxtrol

thomond2006 wrote: »

Let me spin your question like this: Do you think Hayes begged to play?

Of course not (he certainly didn’t go public in threatening to retire if he wasn’t played anyway). I’m not begging to start against England but if Kidney called me now and said he wants me to start I’d probably say I wasn’t up to playing and there are better people that could and should be chosen ahead of me.

thomond2006

Foxtrol wrote: »

If I was given a central contract while reaching retirement age and was selected continuously, blocking better, younger players I would find it understandable that questions were raised to both management and to myself as to why I continue to play.

It’s like a former champion boxer who is at the end of his career and wont hang up his gloves despite being knocked out by amateurs. Do you blame the promoter who pays him to keep going or the boxer who doesn’t pack it in?

Foxtrol wrote: »

Of course not (he certainly didn’t go public in threatening to retire if he wasn’t played anyway). I’m not begging to start against England but if Kidney called me now and said he wants me to start I’d probably say I wasn’t up to playing and there are better people that could and should be chosen ahead of me.

Give us all a shout from heaven when you've attained sainthood ya?

Foxtrol

Deleted User wrote: »

should BOD just have retired after the WC?

If BOD gets to the stage that the only Autumn International he is starting is against Samoa and is played off the park by his opposite number then I’d say he’s missed the point to retire gracefully.

molloyjh

jm08 wrote: »

so, in other words you mostly agree with me

darcy isn't rotated though. he is first choice 12 and starter for leinster.

If we weren't missing our first choice 13 for the whole season who knows what would have happened. Given Joes tactic of playing the physically stronger team away he was always going to play McFadden at 13 in the away games so he didn't have a chance at playing 12 for half the games so far.

He was injured (IIRC) for the Glasgow game at home, he started at 12 against Bath in the Aviva and against Montpellier he was on the wing due to Fitzys injury.

So realistically because of injury he was only available to start 1 game at 12. And he did.

Which still ignores the point which is that most people are not talking about dropping Darcy at all anyway...

Foxtrol

thomond2006 wrote: »

Give us all a shout from heaven when you've attained sainthood ya?

You've nicely sidestepped the question I raised in the boxing analogy.

Let’s get to the bottom of it do you honestly think he retired from international rugby graciously or are you possibly just attacking me because I’ve broken a taboo of questioning Hayes?

CIARAN_BOYLE

Foxtrol wrote: »

You've nicely sidestepped the question I raised in the boxing analogy.

Let’s get to the bottom of it do you honestly think he retired from international rugby graciously or are you possibly just attacking me because I’ve broken a taboo of questioning Hayes?

Before Ross came through (and it was only really september 2010 when he got regular game time at Leinster) Hayes was the best option at TH prop.

At that stage Hayes was under contract and he wasn't going to walk out on a contract.

Foxtrol

tolosenc wrote: »

It flabbergasts me that people can be so vitriolic about a player like that. Everyone knew he was past it at international level for a couple of years, which is not a problem, but someone decided he was better that Buckley (probably still is) and Ross (definitely was not). Not his fault he got picked. Similar happens with the football team. Paul McShane is rubbish, but it;s not his fault he gets picked, so get off his back!

Again, everything in your post here seems to agree with me that he didn’t retire graciously so get off your high horse. From the outset I stated I have great respect the man but he is not infallible and I believe (whether pushed into it or not) he slightly tainted his legacy by continuing for longer than he should.

phog

Foxtrol wrote: »

You've nicely sidestepped the question I raised in the boxing analogy.

Let’s get to the bottom of it do you honestly think he retired from international rugby graciously or are you possibly just attacking me because I’ve broken a taboo of questioning Hayes?

In my eyes he did, in your view he didn't. People differ.

darragh_haven

Foxtrol wrote: »

If BOD gets to the stage that the only Autumn International he is starting is against Samoa and is played off the park by his opposite number then I’d say he’s missed the point to retire gracefully.

Samoa are Pacific Islanders and traditionally have a strong scrum. And yes Hayes got pushed around against them. If BOD was playing in an Autumn internationl against NZ (or a. n. other with very good backs) and got played off the park, would you be calling for him to hang up his boots. I doubt it.....
Compare like with like!

Foxtrol

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Before Ross came through (and it was only really september 2010 when he got regular game time at Leinster) Hayes was the best option at TH prop.

At that stage Hayes was under contract and he wasn't going to walk out on a contract.

So which would you class as being more gracious way of retiring?

Realising that there is better player below that should be being picked but isn’t because your old coach is selecting you and deciding your time has come to retire or staying on until the end of your contract and being beaten off the pack by the likes of Samoa.

I understand the possible reasoning for him staying on but you can’t have your cake and eat it. You can’t continue as long as he did and expect for people to look on the end of your career and say you retired gracefully.

Foxtrol

darragh_haven wrote: »

Samoa are Pacific Islanders and traditionally have a strong scrum. And yes Hayes got pushed around against them. If BOD was playing in an Autumn internationl against NZ (or a. n. other with very good backs) and got played off the park, would you be calling for him to hang up his boots. I doubt it.....
Compare like with like!

Did you really just say Samoa are to scrumaging as NZ are to backs?

darragh_haven

Foxtrol wrote: »

So which would you class as being more gracious way of retiring?

Realising that there is better player below that should be being picked but isn’t because your old coach is selecting you and deciding your time has come to retire or staying on until the end of your contract and being beaten off the pack by the likes of Samoa.

I understand the possible reasoning for him staying on but you can’t have your cake and eat it. You can’t continue as long as he did and expect for people to look on the end of your career and say you retired gracefully.

I can see why you call yourself foxTROL.....

darragh_haven

Foxtrol wrote: »

Did you really just say Samoa are to scrumaging as NZ are to backs?

No, i read my post again and i don't see that written anywhere.:p

Foxtrol

phog wrote: »

In my eyes he did, in your view he didn't. People differ.

Thanks. I can see and respect how some could view it that way as well. I really don’t believe my opinion is that farfetched to deserve the general type of outraged response I just received, especially as you are one of the few who have outright disagreed with me, unlike the majority who solely made excuses as to why it was ok that he continued when his performances deteriorated.

Otacon

John Hayes continued to put in his best when asked of him by his club and country. He retired in front of his biggest fans, on his field. If I only could retire like that...

totallegend

Wow, this is probably my fault.

I wasn't suggesting Hayes should not have stayed on with Ireland, merely that his downward spiral (at the age of 38, so let's keep it in context) somewhat tainted his overall legacy as a player, but shouldn't detract from his achievements in his long heyday.

I just think that if we had a natural route of guys retiring from one aspect of the game, they could extend their lifespan in others, while still going out at the top of the game.
Leaving the financial side out of it, I just think it would have been more dignified for Hayes to sign off on his Ireland career after the 2009 GS rather than be scuffling with Tony Buckley, of all people, to be the back-up to the sub prop at the World Cup.

"You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

dougieruggie

Why is John Hayes getting a hard time? He played when asked. When he wasn't picked he didn't go off ranting in post match interviews or moaning in the papers. He accepted that Ross was ahead of him and moved on. To be honest, he seems like an upstanding gentleman.

Foxtrol

Otacon wrote: »

John Hayes continued to put in his best when asked of him by his club and country. He retired in front of his biggest fans, on his field. If I only could retire like that...

When you add to the fact he appears to be infallible, he really is some man.

Foxtrol

dougieruggie wrote: »

Why is John Hayes getting a hard time? He played when asked. When he wasn't picked he didn't go off ranting in post match interviews or moaning in the papers. He accepted that Ross was ahead of him and moved on. To be honest, he seems like an upstanding gentleman.

John Hayes is not getting a hard time. The mere inference that he may have not been a shining light when it comes to retiring graciously from international rugby appears to have gotten a lot of peoples knickers in a twist. No one said anything that when you look at the evidence is overly outlandish.

Everyone is in agreement that he is a gentleman and an Irish rugby legend.

onlyrocknroll

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Typical Kidney gold in the IT today. Asked if he thought referees had kept to their stated intentions of how they would officiate the 6 Nations he said:

"Refereeing is a tough job. No two games will ever be refereed exactly the same. It's the job for everybody to adjust to it. Lads are coming out and giving it their best go and its up to us to adjust accordingly as the game goes on."

TMI Declan.

The man must be infuriating to know.

Mrs Kidney - "Would you like me to cook or will we go out for dinner?"

DK - "Well obviously dinner is a very important meal, we have to have dinner. So we should consider our options and make our choices... because at the end of the day dinner is vital. I don't think anybody can dispute that"

Mrs Kidney - "So that means ... ...?"

dastardly00

onlyrocknroll wrote: »

The man must be infuriating to know.

Mrs Kidney - "Would you like me to cook or will we go out for dinner?"

DK - "Well obviously dinner is a very important meal, we have to have dinner. So we should consider our options and make our choices... because at the end of the day dinner is vital. I don't think anybody can dispute that"

Mrs Kidney - "So that means ... ...?"

Mrs Kidney should just tell DK to go on a diet! :pac:

JustinDee

onlyrocknroll wrote: »

The man must be infuriating to know

Not in the slightest.

onlyrocknroll

JustinDee wrote: »

Not in the slightest.

Of course. I've only ever heard very positive things from people who know him.

To be clear I was just joking.

Riskymove

Foxtrol wrote: »

John Hayes is not getting a hard time.

the problem for many posters was their view that he should not have been selected and there were better choices

unfortunately many allowed their view to manifest as attacking Hayes rather than Kidney

tolosenc

onlyrocknroll wrote: »

The man must be infuriating to know.

"Well, knowing me is a very subjective thing. In some ways you know me and in other ways you don't..."

irishbucsfan

You're definitely going to know a lot of people. Some people you're going to know better than others. I think the lads will know each other and that's all that matters