Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Tox56 · 13-03-2012 5:13pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

If you compare D'arcy in his pomp to McFadden at the moment there is a bit of a difference. Remember we're talking about a two times Lions tourist and World Player of the Year nominee.

I don't think McFadden is a special player, but he is a similar type of player to D'Arcy, and is probably better right now.

irishbucsfan · 13-03-2012 5:16pm

I don't think McFadden and Darcy are similar at all to be honest. Especially when you consider D'Arcys strength is defense which is McFaddens weakness!

Clegg · 13-03-2012 5:23pm

Has anyone else seen the shortlist for 6 Nations player of the tournament? Sexton and Ryan are the 2 Irish candidates.

It's a terrible list imo. Ferris and Kearney have been Irelands best players this tournament and they can't even get a nomination!! Ryan has only started 1 match ffs.

irishbucsfan · 13-03-2012 5:26pm

DONNCHA RYAN!?

GerM · 13-03-2012 5:29pm

Player of the tournament is based on players who have received man of the match awards only.

Comparing Darce with McFadden is like comparing Keith Wood and Frankie Sheahan. Just two totally different calibre players. The difference being that Wood had about 7 years at the top and went out very young. Darce is now on the wane but still playing. He was absolutely electric for about 5 years and couple play anywhere from 11-15. He would have been in the set up for longer if he had been brought through a bit more carefully. McFadden is a decent, hardworking player who gets by on pure determination and raw effort. The only real similarity is that McFadden goes into contact the same way Darce has done in recent years, head down, pumping the legs and is very hard to put down despite not being a big bloke.

Podge_irl · 13-03-2012 5:31pm

They changed the nomination process last year to all the MOTM award winners. Calling it idiotic would be generous.

molloyjh · 13-03-2012 5:41pm

jm08 wrote: »

1. most would not agree with your first two points in that ogara is playing very good rugby at the moment

It doesn't matter how many people agree or disagree with who I think the better OH is. DK has obviously made his mind up, and that's the important one. I've never said ROG isn't playing well, just that Sexton is better all round. That doesn't by implication mean that I think ROG is playing badly.

jm08 wrote: »

and secondly, mcfadden is the natural successor to darcy - he isn't

In fairness I never said he was Darce's natural successor. I just made the point he was a more likely long term option that Sexton, who is our long term option at OH. I used him as the example because he's been our 22nd man this year.

jm08 wrote: »

having sexton playing 12 at the moment could be regarded as a fairly unavoidable situation.

Of course it's avoidable. With a centre on the bench who has 3 tries under his belt with the equivalent of less than 4 full games you do have an option. Ok so Ferg hasn't set the world alight, but he hasn't been shown up either. What would really be so wrong with giving the guy a shot? At least then maybe we'd know.

jm08 wrote: »

All those changes come about nowadays because players are expected to be able to play more than one position. With all the resources the lions had with them, Tommy Bowe ended up starting a test match at 13 for the first time. Contepomi had no problem switching from 10 to 12 to fullback as well - probably because he was talented enough to do it.

Those changes happen when players have a background of playing in multiple positions to some degree, or if a side is stuck. Neither of which are the case here.

Dave6858 · 13-03-2012 5:57pm

jm08 wrote: »

don't think he is doing it to accommodate an oh that has no future for ireland . madigan and keatley have a fair bit to go yet before anyone would be remotely confident of them playing international rugby against a top 10 country.

Kidney is putting ROG on at 10 to keep him happy when in reality he should be keeping the bench warm unless Sexton gets injured.
Sexton should start and finish at 10 because this is how you build experience and confidence,changing him to 12 is a cop out from DK.
ROG was a good servent to us but its time to move on and look for a new OT as understudy to Sexton(there for ROG has no FUTURE for Ireland)

jm08 · 13-03-2012 6:35pm

molloyjh wrote: »

It doesn't matter how many people agree or disagree with who I think the better OH is. DK has obviously made his mind up, and that's the important one. I've never said ROG isn't playing well, just that Sexton is better all round. That doesn't by implication mean that I think ROG is playing badly.

sexton is improving - particularly his game management - dont think that is at ogara standard yet.

In fairness I never said he was Darce's natural successor. I just made the point he was a more likely long term option that Sexton, who is our long term option at OH. I used him as the example because he's been our 22nd man this year.

there are far better long-term options coming up (as mentioned by various posters here).

Of course it's avoidable. With a centre on the bench who has 3 tries under his belt with the equivalent of less than 4 full games you do have an option. Ok so Ferg hasn't set the world alight, but he hasn't been shown up either. What would really be so wrong with giving the guy a shot? At least then maybe we'd know.

the tries he scored were from the wing & fullback france, russia and scotland.

i think he was shown up against wales in the 6ns and russia (defensively) in world cup.

Those changes happen when players have a background of playing in multiple positions to some degree, or if a side is stuck. Neither of which are the case here.

most top players play multiple positions now - just look at the french and oh and sh, ruan pienaar oh, sh and fb, jean de villiers wing & centre.

molloyjh · 13-03-2012 6:43pm

jm08 wrote: »

sexton is improving - particularly his game management - dont think that is at ogara standard yet.

You're entitled to your opinion on it, but it's irrelevant given that Sexton is Irelands first choice OH which is the point.

jm08 wrote: »

there are far better long-term options coming up (as mentioned by various posters here).

Maybe, I'm not saying there isn't. I just don't see the logic in not giving McFadden a shot there given that he plays there provincially and does so quite well. If someone better comes along in a year or two then that's all well and good too.

jm08 wrote: »

the tries he scored were from the wing & fullback france, russia and scotland.

i think he was shown up against wales in the 6ns and russia (defensively) in world cup.

He actually had a pretty decent game against Wales, nothing spectacular but decent enbough. That one missed tackle that you're thinking of was Darcys to make, not his. No way could you expect him to take a George North at full throttle on his weak shoulder like that. He's more of a 12 than a 13 anyway so would be better inside Earls.

And if you look at 2 of the tries he scored (against France and Scotland) they were not wingers tries. If anything they were more reminiscent of BOD (e.g. against England and Wales in 2009).

jm08 · 13-03-2012 6:44pm

Dave6858 wrote: »

Kidney is putting ROG on at 10 to keep him happy when in reality he should be keeping the bench warm unless Sexton gets injured.
Sexton should start and finish at 10 because this is how you build experience and confidence,changing him to 12 is a cop out from DK.
ROG was a good servent to us but its time to move on and look for a new OT as understudy to Sexton(there for ROG has no FUTURE for Ireland)

dan carter, jonny wilkinson, luke mcalister, toby flood, dan carter, james hook and most recently owen farrell have played or play ocasionally at inside centre . I don't think its beyond sexton .

how do you propose sexton's understudy is going to get gametime then are you going to put sexton on the bench ?

Tox56 · 13-03-2012 6:46pm

jm08 wrote: »

dan carter, jonny wilkinson, luke mcalister, toby flood, dan carter, james hook and most recently owen farrell have played or play ocasionally at inside centre . I don't think its beyond sexton .

how do you propose sexton's understudy is going to get gametime then are you going to put sexton on the bench ?

Well.. yes? Put someone who will actually learn from inside centre play there, put Sexton on the bench, or don't bring ROG on in the first place.

Podge_irl · 13-03-2012 6:48pm

jm08 wrote: »

I don't think its beyond sexton .

how do you propose sexton's understudy is going to get gametime then are you going to put sexton on the bench ?

I don't think it's beyond him either. It's just ****ing pointless.

jm08 · 13-03-2012 6:53pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Maybe, I'm not saying there isn't. I just don't see the logic in not giving McFadden a shot there given that he plays there provincially and does so quite well. If someone better comes along in a year or two then that's all well and good too.

He actually had a pretty decent game against Wales, nothing spectacular but decent enbough. That one missed tackle that you're thinking of was Darcys to make, not his. No way could you expect him to take a George North at full throttle on his weak shoulder like that. He's more of a 12 than a 13 anyway so would be better inside Earls.

And if you look at 2 of the tries he scored (against France and Scotland) they were not wingers tries. If anything they were more reminiscent of BOD (e.g. against England and Wales in 2009).

he can't displace darcy for leinster, why should he displace him for darcy for ireland. schmidt & kidney see him the same way (i think he is a very honest tryer and a very good bench option).

the tries he scored, he wasn't the inside centre on the pitch - someone else was (darcy and sexton). think he did ok against wales, but attack was poor. ireland's attack benefit with two playmakers on the pitch specially since bod is out.

Tox56 · 13-03-2012 6:54pm

jm08 wrote: »

he can't displace darcy for leinster, why should he displace him for darcy for ireland. schmidt & kidney see him the same way (i think he is a very honest tryer and a very good bench option).

the tries he scored, he wasn't the inside centre on the pitch - someone else was (darcy and sexton). think he did ok against wales, but attack was poor. ireland's attack benefit with two playmakers on the pitch specially since bod is out.

Joe's rotation! It's world famous you know.

jm08 · 13-03-2012 7:22pm

Tox56 wrote: »

Joe's rotation! It's world famous you know.

ya, yud think that leinster followers would be able to understand rotation though facts are only ones to get rotated in leinster are the front row and the scrumhalf and darcy doesnt get rotated in the heineken cup.

.ak · 13-03-2012 7:23pm

jm08 wrote: »

ya, yud think that leinster followers would be able to understand rotation though facts are only ones to get rotated in leinster are the front row and the scrumhalf and darcy doesnt get rotated in the heineken cup.

Yeah but Schmidt doesn't take Darce off and move Sexton there.... :rolleyes:

irishbucsfan · 13-03-2012 7:33pm

jm08 wrote: »

Tox56 wrote: »

Joe's rotation! It's world famous you know.

ya, yud think that leinster followers would be able to understand rotation though facts are only ones to get rotated in leinster are the front row and the scrumhalf and darcy doesnt get rotated in the heineken cup.

Showing you haven't followed Leinster in the heineken cup there.

Rotation in the front row at every position, Toner/Browne/Cullen rotated in the row. Ruddock, Jennings, O'Brien, McLaughlin and Heaslip all rotated in the back row.

Then in the backs you had Reddan/Boss. Madigan started because of injury but also got plenty of time off the bench. In the center we saw McFadden/O'Malley/D'Arcy and in the back 3 we had Fitzgerald/Nacewa/Kearneys... Can't remember if Carr started one?

Basically what you said is complete rubbish

sock puppet · 13-03-2012 7:48pm

There's a pretty clear first choice player in most positions for Leinster though. Inside centre is one of them.

Not saying that means Darcy should start for Ireland, just that he's undoubtedly Leinster's first choice inside centre.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 13-03-2012 7:56pm

McFadden has played 5 HEC games this season. 1 at 12, 3 at 13 and 1 at 14 for a total of 400 minutes. In three of those games Darcy came off early and McFadden went to 12.

His versatility has hurt him as he tried to stake down a starting spot.

For comparison Darcy has started five games and came off the bench in another one for a total of 394 minutes of HEC rugby this season.

Yes Darcy is first choice at Leinster at 12 but thats as much because McFadden is also 1st/2nd choice at 13 and #3 on the wing after Isa and Luke and ahead of (or alongside) D Kearney and Carr

Tox56 · 13-03-2012 7:57pm

sock puppet wrote: »

There's a pretty clear first choice player in most positions for Leinster though. Inside centre is one of them.

Not saying that means Darcy should start for Ireland, just that he's undoubtedly Leinster's first choice inside centre.

It's difficult, because you can't really say "McFadden hasn't displaced D'Arcy" because there is a lot of rotation. It is technically true that he hasn't displaced him as first-choice for the biggest of the matches, but McFadden is getting so much gametime at 12 due to rotation. His versatility doesn't help the situation though.

molloyjh · 13-03-2012 8:31pm

jm08 wrote: »

he can't displace darcy for leinster, why should he displace him for darcy for ireland. schmidt & kidney see him the same way (i think he is a very honest tryer and a very good bench option).

the tries he scored, he wasn't the inside centre on the pitch - someone else was (darcy and sexton). think he did ok against wales, but attack was poor. ireland's attack benefit with two playmakers on the pitch specially since bod is out.

Sorry, but where have I ever said he should displace Darcy? I've only ever said that if you're going to take Darce off it would make more sense to replace him with McFadden than Sexton....nor did I ever say he was inside centre for his tries.

shuffol · 13-03-2012 9:18pm

It shouldnt matter that much that D'arcy starts ahead of Mcfadden for Leinster, Ireland and Leinster are different sides with different priorities, right now Ireland is struggling at 12 and if its thought Mcfadden could do a better job there then Mcfadden should be selected and Kidney shouldnt be constrained by Schmidts selection policy. Should Charlie Hodgson be starting at 10 for England ahead of Farrell just because he starts there for Saracens, Once again we are seeing a complete lack of vision from Kidney, he's more concerned about keeping ROG and Sexton happy than giving Mcfadden gametime at 12. You'd have to be concerned with D'arcy against the All blacks midfield given his recent performances, some attempt should've been made to give us some other options in that area.

tolosenc · 13-03-2012 11:33pm

shuffol wrote: »

It shouldnt matter that much that D'arcy starts ahead of Mcfadden for Leinster, Ireland and Leinster are different sides with different priorities, right now Ireland is struggling at 12 and if its thought Mcfadden could do a better job there then Mcfadden should be selected and Kidney shouldnt be constrained by Schmidts selection policy. Should Charlie Hodgson be starting at 10 for England ahead of Farrell just because he starts there for Saracens, Once again we are seeing a complete lack of vision from Kidney, he's more concerned about keeping ROG and Sexton happy than giving Mcfadden gametime at 12. You'd have to be concerned with D'arcy against the All blacks midfield given his recent performances, some attempt should've been made to give us some other options in that area.

Well, he has a track record of picking who he wants regardless of who is playing where at provincial level, cf. DOC & Ryan

jm08 · 14-03-2012 12:29am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Showing you haven't followed Leinster in the heineken cup there.

Rotation in the front row at every position, Toner/Browne/Cullen rotated in the row. Ruddock, Jennings, O'Brien, McLaughlin and Heaslip all rotated in the back row.

Then in the backs you had Reddan/Boss. Madigan started because of injury but also got plenty of time off the bench. In the center we saw McFadden/O'Malley/D'Arcy and in the back 3 we had Fitzgerald/Nacewa/Kearneys... Can't remember if Carr started one?

Basically what you said is complete rubbish

Most are 'rotated' because of injury.
Darcy started every hc game last season at 12 and all but one this season. the one who are never rotated for hc games when fit are: cullen, sean obrien, Heislip, sexton, fitz, darcy, bod, nacewa and kearney. straus & ross will nearly always start. the rest fit in when required.

Tox56 · 14-03-2012 12:31am

jm08 wrote: »

Most are 'rotated' because of injury.
Darcy started every hc game last season at 12 and all but one this season. the one who are never rotated for hc games when fit are: cullen, sean obrien, Heislip, sexton, fitz, darcy, bod, nacewa and kearney. straus & ross will nearly always start. the rest fit in when required.

Sexton is not someone who is rotated, neither are Nacewa or Kearney under most circumstances, for the big games neither is Heaslip. Why on earth would BOD be rotated for the bigger games..

Even for the big games, Cronin and Strauss are rotated, D'Arcy/McFadden/EOM rotate around within eachother, Jennings and McLaughlin are rotated, Boss and Reddan likewise, Toner and Browne too.

They aren't as fixed as that, but that is as structured as you can make it.

tolosenc · 14-03-2012 1:15am

jm08 wrote: »

Most are 'rotated' because of injury.
Darcy started every hc game last season at 12 and all but one this season. the one who are never rotated for hc games when fit are: cullen, sean obrien, Heislip, sexton, fitz, darcy, bod, nacewa and kearney. straus & ross will nearly always start. the rest fit in when required.

Are you suggestiong that players like Macken and Auva'a get Heineken Cup gametime? That'd be like your lot starting Keatley! (*shudders*)

jm08 · 14-03-2012 1:25am

tolosenc wrote: »

Are you suggestiong that players like Macken and Auva'a get Heineken Cup gametime? That'd be like your lot starting Keatley! (*shudders*)

nope. don't know how you got that idea

jm08 · 14-03-2012 1:28am

Tox56 wrote: »

Sexton is not someone who is rotated, neither are Nacewa or Kearney under most circumstances, for the big games neither is Heaslip. Why on earth would BOD be rotated for the bigger games..

Even for the big games, Cronin and Strauss are rotated, D'Arcy/McFadden/EOM rotate around within eachother, Jennings and McLaughlin are rotated, Boss and Reddan likewise, Toner and Browne too.

They aren't as fixed as that, but that is as structured as you can make it.

so, in other words you mostly agree with me

darcy isn't rotated though. he is first choice 12 and starter for leinster.

tolosenc · 14-03-2012 3:30am

jm08 wrote: »

nope. don't know how you got that idea

I don't understand your point then. Big players shouldn't be rotated out of HEC squads, but Darce should?

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

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