Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

ambid

"Scotland and Ireland have both won the Six Nations once since professionalism."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0326/1224313892937.html

Anybody else feel a sudden chill when you read this?

Take away all the rhetoric, and this sentence is a devastating indictment of national team performance over many years.

What I find especially interesting is ex-pros, like Emmet Byrne last weekend, stating current players are bored with Kidney's amateur psychology mind games. It seems safe to assume they have inside knowledge of the mood in the squad and whether the players still have confidence in the coach.

molloyjh

To sum it up nicely: why should I be bothered if Ireland win or lose if those in a position to make it happen don't appear to be bothered themselves? After all 4 successive failed tournaments surely indicates change is required. If there's no drive from the union to make this happen why should I get worked up over it any more? I'm personally just sick and tired of investing myself in a set-up that is overly conservative and negative to the point that it is self-defeating.

Right now I'm more interested in the Leinster scene because I can enjoy the experience, win or lose. I can see postive rugby, change if and when it is required, sensible selections. I can see a direction, development of talent. All things that I'm fed up of not seeing at international level.

I can honestly say that this is the first year that I have really felt this way. But it's been coming. And it's not because of results. It's not because of some sort of tribal bs. It's because of all the things me and others like me were saying at the very start of this years 6 Nations. Judgements we were making about the tournament "before a ball was even kicked". Opinions we were all but told off for having, but were ultimately proven to once again be valid and accurate. Right now I'd take losing with a sense of direction and purpose over losing aimlessly, which is all we've been doing for the last few years. It'd be a start.

peterako

molloyjh wrote: »

To sum it up nicely: why should I be bothered if Ireland win or lose if those in a position to make it happen don't appear to be bothered themselves? After all 4 successive failed tournaments surely indicates change is required. If there's no drive from the union to make this happen why should I get worked up over it any more? I'm personally just sick and tired of investing myself in a set-up that is overly conservative and negative to the point that it is self-defeating.

Right now I'm more interested in the Leinster scene because I can enjoy the experience, win or lose. I can see postive rugby, change if and when it is required, sensible selections. I can see a direction, development of talent. All things that I'm fed up of not seeing at international level.

I can honestly say that this is the first year that I have really felt this way. But it's been coming. And it's not because of results. It's not because of some sort of tribal bs. It's because of all the things me and others like me were saying at the very start of this years 6 Nations. Judgements we were making about the tournament "before a ball was even kicked". Opinions we were all but told off for having, but were ultimately proven to once again be valid and accurate. Right now I'd take losing with a sense of direction and purpose over losing aimlessly, which is all we've been doing for the last few years. It'd be a start.

Very well said and sums up my sentiments very well too....

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

To sum it up nicely: why should I be bothered if Ireland win or lose if those in a position to make it happen don't appear to be bothered themselves? After all 4 successive failed tournaments surely indicates change is required. If there's no drive from the union to make this happen why should I get worked up over it any more? I'm personally just sick and tired of investing myself in a set-up that is overly conservative and negative to the point that it is self-defeating.

Right now I'm more interested in the Leinster scene because I can enjoy the experience, win or lose. I can see postive rugby, change if and when it is required, sensible selections. I can see a direction, development of talent. All things that I'm fed up of not seeing at international level.

I can honestly say that this is the first year that I have really felt this way. But it's been coming. And it's not because of results. It's not because of some sort of tribal bs. It's because of all the things me and others like me were saying at the very start of this years 6 Nations. Judgements we were making about the tournament "before a ball was even kicked". Opinions we were all but told off for having, but were ultimately proven to once again be valid and accurate. Right now I'd take losing with a sense of direction and purpose over losing aimlessly, which is all we've been doing for the last few years. It'd be a start.

Agreed. I felt the same the other night when Leinster lost to Ospreys. We were truely awful in the second half - but atleast there was glimmers of what the team is capable of and what direction they want and also new talent looking to make an impact. However when Ireland lose there's 100+ page thread on here about where we went wrong - because it's just that hard to pinpoint, considering the complete lack of a modern day gameplan.

siltirocker

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm aware. But I thought that presenting massively grey areas of an argument as a black and white case was a good idea to highlight how you're treating the "results" = "support" issue.

I would also be impressed if Connacht's win ratio vs the other Provinces has changed significantly in the last 10 years

Infact this is shaping up to be Connacht's 2nd worst season since the leagues inception.

Yet the have tripled their average attendance.

JustinDee

siltirocker wrote: »

Infact this is shaping up to be Connacht's 2nd worst season since the leagues inception.
Yet the have tripled their average attendance.

What is their Heineken Cup record like?

molloyjh

JustinDee wrote: »

What is their Heineken Cup record like?

Not far off their league record actually. 4 wins from 18 in the Pro12 and 1 from 6 in the HEC. Given that they are not in the HEC by virtue of their results then the rise in support has nothing to do with their results at all...

JustinDee

molloyjh wrote: »

Not far off their league record actually. 4 wins from 18 in the Pro12 and 1 from 6 in the HEC. Given that they are not in the HEC by virtue of their results then the rise in support has nothing to do with their results at all...

Success, as I pointed out earlier, is driving the spike in profile. Doesn't matter if this is thanks to another province. Style has nothing to do with it.

.ak

JustinDee wrote: »

Success, as I pointed out earlier, is driving the spike in profile. Doesn't matter if this is thanks to another province. Style has nothing to do with it.

I would've thought Connacht's rise in attendance figures is down to the Rugby they're playing. They're no longer push overs, fight hard for every game, yet still have no success in regards to league position. Don't know if you can pin that on other branches or rugby attitude in Ireland in general.

CatFromHue

.ak wrote: »

I would've thought Connacht's rise in attendance figures is down to the Rugby they're playing. They're no longer push overs, fight hard for every game, yet still have no success in regards to league position. Don't know if you can pin that on other branches or rugby attitude in Ireland in general.

They weren't push overs last season. They finished up last season on P22 W7 D1 Try Bonus 3 Losing Bonus 6 Points For 394 all in the Magners of course.

I think the off the field changes as well as the HEC have made big differences.

molloyjh

JustinDee wrote: »

Success, as I pointed out earlier, is driving the spike in profile. Doesn't matter if this is thanks to another province. Style has nothing to do with it.

Well then maybe our definitions of success are different. Getting into the HEC on the back of someone else's success and then losing all but 1 of your games in it doesn't constitute success to me.

I know it's not all about style. In fact style is a very, very small part in why you would choose to follow a team. And success does play a bigger factor certainly. But people are going to Connacht games because of a increased profile in rugby in general in the country as well as interest (mixed with a bit of pride) in seeing them in the HEC. Not because of anything Connacht are doing.

Given that your question was...

JustinDee wrote: »

Which teams are you thinking of that have seen a rise in support despite results?

...Connacht is still a fair answer.

If we were to actually look at the point where this all started though it was about support for the national team where you tried to claim there would be more support for the side if they were winning. While there is certainly merit in that point it ignores the fact that a lot of us here are losing interest because of the reasons behind the losing and not the losing itself. And that movement in the right direction, even if it still meant losses for a time, would be a positive shift that many of us would support and really get behind.

Constantly talking about winning and success (using very loose definitions of either) as the primary motivator behind support is just another way to drive the topic off point. Which is that a lot of us here are losing interest for reasons other than the actual results. Maybe if those issues were addressed we might see a reversal in fortunes of the team, both from a results perspective and a support perspective. But I can guarantee that I for one would get on-board again if there was real direction in getting the issues sorted regardless of the short-term results. As I'm sure many here would. And that is really the point.

Banbridgeman

Declan Kidney has got to go. Ive been told by a good friend and current pro that most of the players don't agree with him and are incredibly frustrated with his management.

.ak

Whilst there's no shortage of people with 'good friends' around these parts, I have no doubt the above is true in one way or the other. But that's what happens when you lose on a team and win on another.

We often bemoan the team from our perspective, but from a players perspective what's happening in the Irish setup must be infuriating.

armchaircoach

Just struck me that over the next three weeks the main protagonists for the Irish 13 jersey are all going to face off against each other
Tomorrow: BOD v Earls
Next Week: Earls v Cave
Next week: BOD v Cave

Should make some good watching and maybe help sort out the pecking order

JustinDee

Banbridgeman wrote: »

Declan Kidney has got to go. Ive been told by a good friend and current pro that most of the players don't agree with him and are incredibly frustrated with his management.

I've been told by certain players (non-Munster too) that he and the others are the best coaches they've played under.
Oh well...

Podge_irl

JustinDee wrote: »

I've been told by certain players (non-Munster too) that he and the others are the best coaches they've played under.
Oh well...

Weren't pretty much all the players big supporters of EOS up to (and indeed after) the end too?

CiaranMT

.ak wrote: »

Whilst there's no shortage of people with 'good friends' around these parts, I have no doubt the above is true in one way or the other. But that's what happens when you lose on a team and win on another.

We often bemoan the team from our perspective, but from a players perspective what's happening in the Irish setup must be infuriating.

You would wonder though, if it is.

Ireland played the most expansive rugby so far under Kidney, reflected in the number of tries scored. But for a lack of backbone against Wales (it should never have come down to the Ferris decision) and France, we'd have been facing into a title decider against England. That game was a complete capitulation, granted, but it's not like Ireland were that far away from the pace at the same time.

jacothelad

JustinDee wrote: »

I've been told by certain players (non-Munster too) that he and the others are the best coaches they've played under.
Oh well...

Yes. It's hard to think that players would be untruthful about the man who selects them for Ireland and very lucrative careers.

irishbucsfan

CiaranMT wrote: »

.ak wrote: »

Whilst there's no shortage of people with 'good friends' around these parts, I have no doubt the above is true in one way or the other. But that's what happens when you lose on a team and win on another.

We often bemoan the team from our perspective, but from a players perspective what's happening in the Irish setup must be infuriating.

You would wonder though, if it is.

Ireland played the most expansive rugby so far under Kidney, reflected in the number of tries scored. But for a lack of backbone against Wales (it should never have come down to the Ferris decision) and France, we'd have been facing into a title decider against England. That game was a complete capitulation, granted, but it's not like Ireland were that far away from the pace at the same time.

Eh? Nothing to do with backbone against wales. It was a poor attacking gameplan and static defense.

thomond2006

JustinDee wrote: »

I've been told by certain players (non-Munster too) that he and the others are the best coaches they've played under.
Oh well...

Ah come on now Justin, they are hardly going to tell you he's useless.

shuffol

There's bound to be a few unhappy campers in the squad. Heaslip questioned Kidneys selections during the 2011 6N, Sexton never seems overly happy in a green shirt, Reddan gets messed about a fair bit, SOBs the designted backrow sub these days irregardless of performance, Mclaughlins comments after the squad announcement and Tuohys tweet would suggest that there's a few unhappy players up in Ulster. Trimble siad the team gave in against England which doesnt sound like a side with a great team spirit. Most of its minor stuff but it wouldnt fill me with confidence that all is well in camp.

JustinDee

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ah come on now Justin, they are hardly going to tell you he's useless.

These guys are pretty blunt and honest, I can tell you that for sure.

thomond2006

JustinDee wrote: »

These guys are pretty blunt and honest, I can tell you that for sure.

There is bluntness and honesty and then there's stupidity.

It would be stupidity for them to criticise Kidney if that's what they actually thought (I'm not saying that's the case or not).

We'll agree to disagree I think.

jacothelad

thomond2006 wrote: »

There is bluntness and honesty and then there's stupidity.

It would be stupidity for them to criticise Kidney if that's what they actually thought (I'm not saying that's the case or not).

We'll agree to disagree I think.

I'm pretty sure that if some players had misgivings about Kidney they would keep it to themselves. He's been very good indeed to some players and has managed to extend the international life of quite a few by judicious selections while simultaneously letting other players continue to develop at their provinces without the need to travel to Limerick.......;)

phog

thomond2006 wrote: »

There is bluntness and honesty and then there's stupidity.

It would be stupidity for them to criticise Kidney if that's what they actually thought (I'm not saying that's the case or not).

We'll agree to disagree I think.

Would you not think if they had misgivings about Kidney and were afraid to express those opinions that they'd keep it to themsleves rather than go to Justin and express a positive opinion and make a liar of themselves?

tolosenc

Ok then, were these a select small bunch of players that only Kidney would ever have given caps to?

padser

JustinDee wrote: »

I've been told by certain players (non-Munster too) that he and the others are the best coaches they've played under.
Oh well...

Hold the presses! Are you seriously saying that Irish players (people whose careers including potentially how much they paid lie largely in DKs hands) are NOT bad mouthing DK to the IRFU? Woh, that's amazing.

Honestly, All that shows is that the players are not reckless / stupid

leftleg

Warning Farrelly Alert;

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/hugh-farrelly-ulster-victory-would-be-bad-for-ireland-3072155.html

Good auld Hugh is at it again;


For, while it has been good to see the spark returning to Ravenhill over the past two seasons, there is no escaping the fact that the spine of the team is non-Irish qualified and affecting the touring prospects of Ulster's Ireland hopefuls.

John Afoa -- We saw in Twickenham what the New Zealander's presence is doing for Tom Court's chances of coping at tight-head.

Johann Muller -- Second-row status means one of either Lewis Stevenson (increasingly impressive) or Dan Tuohy will be on the bench.

Pedrie Wannenberg -- Will keep Willie Faloon out of the side and Chris Henry out of position if Stephen Ferris is cleared to play.

Ruan Pienaar -- forcing Paul Marshall to make his name as an impact sub.


As if Dan, Chris and Paul will ever actually get game time under Kidney anyway;

What a silly article; typical Hugh

bilston

CatFromHue wrote: »

"If Ireland don’t perform in the Six Nations there is little said in the media. If Munster or Leinster miss out on the ERC play-offs, there is war. It is out of balance and it is not good for the national team’s cause."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0326/1224313892937.html

---

That's from Matt Williams in today's Irish Times.

There is very little talk in the media about this. A couple of people have skirted with the idea but the vast majority have not.

I suppose it's self preservation from the journalists. If they speak out against Ireland they may find they lose access to the players for a few weeks for interviews. Didn't something like that happen to David Kelly in the not so distant past?

thomond2006

Another journalist (like Thornley) who has sold out.