Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

irishbucsfan · 14-03-2012 7:54am

jm08 wrote: »

Tox56 wrote: »

Sexton is not someone who is rotated, neither are Nacewa or Kearney under most circumstances, for the big games neither is Heaslip. Why on earth would BOD be rotated for the bigger games..

Even for the big games, Cronin and Strauss are rotated, D'Arcy/McFadden/EOM rotate around within eachother, Jennings and McLaughlin are rotated, Boss and Reddan likewise, Toner and Browne too.

They aren't as fixed as that, but that is as structured as you can make it.

so, in other words you mostly agree with me

darcy isn't rotated though. he is first choice 12 and starter for leinster.

Are you saying DArcy played every game at 12 in the H Cup? He didn't.

Were not talking about constant rotation, were talking about 1 or 2 occasions where the backups that are closest to the first team get a chance to start at the highest level without injury.

This season in the heineken cup Leinster have made unforced changes at nearly ever position at some stage. How many unforced changes have Ireland made? 0.

siltirocker · 14-03-2012 10:50am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Are you saying DArcy played every game at 12 in the H Cup? He didn't.

Were not talking about constant rotation, were talking about 1 or 2 occasions where the backups that are closest to the first team get a chance to start at the highest level without injury.

This season in the heineken cup Leinster have made unforced changes at nearly ever position at some stage. How many unforced changes have Ireland made? 0.

When available he did. . . didn't he?

rrpc · 14-03-2012 11:01am

A lot of discussion on D'Arcy and McFadden when the topic started out on having Sexton and O'Gara on the pitch at the same time...

To my mind it's incredibly risky having both your OHs play together for so long. Almost half an hour in the Scotland game with no backup on the bench, but also with still one match to play. Just seems like an unnecessary gamble to me, especially since it's not something that's going to have any life in it for the future. Sexton isn't a 12 and doesn't provide anything in that position other than defense... which is why it was done imo.

D'Arcy and McFadden are very alike in many respects. Both have been in and out of the Irish squad before settling and both have started out in different positions to that which they have settled in. D'Arcy was a fullback/wing before moving to centre, McFadden was a wing.

The major difficulty for McFadden is that he's replacing D'Arcy. It's always harder to replace a guy who's had such a great career.

GerM · 14-03-2012 11:27am

siltirocker wrote: »

When available he did. . . didn't he?

He benched for the home game against Bath with McFadden at 12.

GerM · 14-03-2012 11:31am

rrpc wrote: »

D'Arcy was a fullback/wing before moving to centre, McFadden was a wing.

McFadden is a 13 by trade. It's where he started out and made the majority of his early performances. If he could learn positioning, he'd be a decent 13 too but that's a big if. Still don't think he's settled on any position. He has started in three different positions this season in the HEC for Leinster.

Unfortunately for him, it's quite likely that he'll revert to benching for the business end of the HEC. His ability to cover several positions makes him a great sub to have.

.ak · 14-03-2012 12:00pm

GerM wrote: »

McFadden is a 13 by trade. It's where he started out and made the majority of his early performances. If he could learn positioning, he'd be a decent 13 too but that's a big if. Still don't think he's settled on any position. He has started in three different positions this season in the HEC for Leinster.

Unfortunately for him, it's quite likely that he'll revert to benching for the business end of the HEC. His ability to cover several positions makes him a great sub to have.

I think it is unfortunate for him - I'd imagine at this level it's hard to become decent at anything if you're not getting regular starts in that position. Hopefully we see him utilized at 12 more next season, as I think it'll benefit when Darce hang's up his boots, both for Leinster and Ireland.

chancer12 · 14-03-2012 12:06pm

Dave6858 wrote: »

Kidney is putting ROG on at 10 to keep him happy when in reality he should be keeping the bench warm unless Sexton gets injured.
Sexton should start and finish at 10 because this is how you build experience and confidence,changing him to 12 is a cop out from DK.
ROG was a good servent to us but its time to move on and look for a new OT as understudy to Sexton(there for ROG has no FUTURE for Ireland)

Agree completely, there should be more Wolfhounds matches to give game time to up an coming provincial players.

ROG has been a great servent to Ireland and you'd like to see him retire gracefully rather than being imposed on the team by Kidney and being eventually resented by players and supporters alike.

What's so wrong with having a much bigger squad and rotating players (within position) for matches, that way there's healthy competition and you are developing constantly rather than waiting for injury then panicking

phog · 14-03-2012 12:16pm

chancer12 wrote: »

ROG has been a great servent to Ireland and you'd like to see him retire gracefully rather than being imposed on the team by Kidney and being eventually resented by players and supporters alike.

Utter bullsh*t.

Fishooks12 · 14-03-2012 12:21pm

chancer12 wrote: »

ROG has been a great servent to Ireland and you'd like to see him retire gracefully rather than being imposed on the team by Kidney and being eventually resented by players and supporters alike.

What horse ****

Without even getting into that ****e about him being "resented"

Picture this scenario, 10 minutes into the game on Saturday, no ROG, who has "gracefully retired", Sexton pulls up and has to be taken off.

Who do you bring on? Madigan? Bags of potential but even his biggest fans here realise he´s not ready for test level yet. Keatley? Struggling to keep his shirt with Munster at the moment?

Stupid post

.ak · 14-03-2012 12:22pm

chancer12 wrote: »

Agree completely, there should be more Wolfhounds matches to give game time to up an coming provincial players.

ROG has been a great servent to Ireland and you'd like to see him retire gracefully rather than being imposed on the team by Kidney and being eventually resented by players and supporters alike.

What's so wrong with having a much bigger squad and rotating players (within position) for matches, that way there's healthy competition and you are developing constantly rather than waiting for injury then panicking

:pac:

chancer12 · 14-03-2012 12:39pm

Fishooks12 wrote: »

What horse ****

Without even getting into that ****e about him being "resented"

Picture this scenario, 10 minutes into the game on Saturday, no ROG, who has "gracefully retired", Sexton pulls up and has to be taken off.

Who do you bring on? Madigan? Bags of potential but even his biggest fans here realise he´s not ready for test level yet. Keatley? Struggling to keep his shirt with Munster at the moment?

Stupid post

Don't be so hysterical, I never said retire him this week. He has another season (max) in him

Foxtrol · 14-03-2012 1:06pm

Fishooks12 wrote: »

What horse ****

Without even getting into that ****e about him being "resented"

Picture this scenario, 10 minutes into the game on Saturday, no ROG, who has "gracefully retired", Sexton pulls up and has to be taken off.

Who do you bring on? Madigan? Bags of potential but even his biggest fans here realise he´s not ready for test level yet. Keatley? Struggling to keep his shirt with Munster at the moment?

Stupid post

You can just as easily make up many hypothetical situations where ROG plays on for Ireland despite losing form and then costs the team. No one is saying for him to retire now but at the same time he shouldn’t go down the road as the likes of Hayes. Though I have great respect for him, near the end of his career Hayes met resentment from many fans (including myself) for allowing himself to continue with Ireland when he was no longer capable, while also blocking a younger, better player (Ross) from getting gametime. It’s impossible for us to tell that a number of players didn’t feel the same (again this is not saying they didn’t still have massive respect for him). Surely you agree there is a way to retire gracefully.

14-03-2012 1:15pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

You can just as easily make up many hypothetical situations where ROG plays on for Ireland despite losing form and then costs the team. No one is saying for him to retire now but at the same time he shouldn’t go down the road as the likes of Hayes. Though I have great respect for him, near the end of his career Hayes met resentment from many fans (including myself) for allowing himself to continue with Ireland when he was no longer capable, while also blocking a younger, better player (Ross) from getting gametime. It’s impossible for us to tell that a number of players didn’t feel the same (again this is not saying they didn’t still have massive respect for him). Surely you agree there is a way to retire gracefully.

personally had no problem whatsoever with John Hayes offering himself up for selection. It can't be easy for someone to stop doing what they've done for years.

The problem wasn't Hayes', no self respecting pro would turn down a national call up.

fitz · 14-03-2012 1:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

personally had no problem whatsoever with John Hayes offering himself up for selection. It can't be easy for someone to stop doing what they've done for years.

The problem wasn't Hayes', no self respecting pro would turn down a national call up.

Absolutely.
However, pushing your selection in the media in the somewhat undermining way that ROG has is hardly what I'd consider moving towards retirement in a graceful manner.

leftleg · 14-03-2012 1:19pm

The problem is Kidney; no getting around it; Hayes at tight head instead of Ross; DOC instead of Ryan and Sexton at 12; I feel stupid just typing all that

totallegend · 14-03-2012 1:22pm

Deleted User wrote: »

personally had no problem whatsoever with John Hayes offering himself up for selection. It can't be easy for someone to stop doing what they've done for years.

The problem wasn't Hayes', no self respecting pro would turn down a national call up.

No, of course not, nor was it Hayes' fault that Ireland couldn't produce a decent tight-head.

But still, there is the angle of "going out on top"; Hayes played on well after he was able to hack it at provincial and especially international level, maybe it skewed unfairly how he is viewed in hindsight?

I suppose one of the side-effects of the IRFU set-up is that no-one ever retires from internationals to concentrate on their province, like you often see in other countries.

padraig.od · 14-03-2012 1:39pm

totallegend wrote: »

No, of course not, nor was it Hayes' fault that Ireland couldn't produce a decent tight-head.

But still, there is the angle of "going out on top"; Hayes played on well after he was able to hack it at provincial and especially international level, maybe it skewed unfairly how he is viewed in hindsight?

I suppose one of the side-effects of the IRFU set-up is that no-one ever retires from internationals to concentrate on their province, like you often see in other countries.

Fair point but there is nothing to stop the IRFU from not offering them a contract and the province stepping in to keep them around (see TOL for example)

dreamer_ire · 14-03-2012 1:41pm

totallegend wrote: »

No, of course not, nor was it Hayes' fault that Ireland couldn't produce a decent tight-head.

But still, there is the angle of "going out on top"; Hayes played on well after he was able to hack it at provincial and especially international level, maybe it skewed unfairly how he is viewed in hindsight?

I suppose one of the side-effects of the IRFU set-up is that no-one ever retires from internationals to concentrate on their province, like you often see in other countries.

I can understand the points being made regarding ROGs interviews but I do take issue with the comparison to Hayes. How would we have viewed Hayes had he buggered off at the height of his career and potentially left us without a TH with any experience of note?

I'm a Munster fan through and through and I'm of the opinion that Kidney's conservatism is what is holding back the emergence of new talent at international level. I don't see it as bias, just him living up to his reputation as a safe pair of hands. Unfortunately for us, a safe pair of hands is not what is currently required but the we/IRFU can hardly be surprised at his selection choices. He's doing what he's known for! And as frustrating as it is for us as fans, imagine what it's like for players such as Sexton, Ryan, O'Mahoney, McFadden and a whole host of Ulster players who should have been making more regular appearances.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 14-03-2012 2:03pm

With the way many are posting about ROG, you'd swear he was over the hill and finished. The reality is that he has had more influence on the HC than any other player in the competition and would hold realistic ambitions of starting for every 6N team bar Ireland.

Bringing him on for D'Arcy isn't a great idea looking forward, but a ROG-Sexton axis is much stronger than a Sexton-McFadden one. People forget than McFadden has been responsible for the conceding of 3 tries in his last 2 starts. The management probably don't trust him with such a central role or view him as the figure at 12.

GerM · 14-03-2012 2:16pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

With the way many are posting about ROG, you'd swear he was over the hill and finished. The reality is that he has had more influence on the HC than any other player in the competition and would hold realistic ambitions of starting for every 6N team bar Ireland.

Bringing him on for D'Arcy isn't a great idea looking forward, but a ROG-Sexton axis is much stronger than a Sexton-McFadden one. People forget than McFadden has been responsible for the conceding of 3 tries in his last 2 starts. The management probably don't trust him with such a central role or view him as the figure at 12.

In fairness, CB, the first paragraph is irrelevant. I'd disagree that ROG/Sexton is stronger than Sexton/McFadden. McFadden's defensive issues have been with patrolling the wider channel at 13 where he's often lost. He has no issue with the straight up tackling that's required at 12. He's fairly good at it, in fact. Putting a defensively suspect player on and playing someone in a position they've no experience in is a significantly weaker option.

Foxtrol · 14-03-2012 2:30pm

dreamer_ire wrote: »

I can understand the points being made regarding ROGs interviews but I do take issue with the comparison to Hayes. How would we have viewed Hayes had he buggered off at the height of his career and potentially left us without a TH with any experience of note?

I don't think anyone begrudges a player when they retire, even if it’s well before what the public see as the right time. Even though the eventual blame for selecting him rests with Kidney, it was Hayes who left himself open to it happening and because of both their actions Ireland was still left to start a TH with practically no international experience.

thomond2006 · 14-03-2012 2:32pm

I don't think anyone begrudges a player when they retire, even if it’s well before what the public see as the right time. Even though the eventual blame for selecting him rests with Kidney, it was Hayes who left himself open to it happening and because of both their actions Ireland was still left to start a TH with practically no international experience.

If Hayes retired from Ireland duty, he would have immediately lost his international contract and a large portion of his salary. Therefore blaming him for leaving himself available for Ireland duty is a load of cack tbh.

Foxtrol · 14-03-2012 2:37pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

If Hayes retired from Ireland duty, he would have immediately lost his international contract and a large portion of his salary. Therefore blaming him for leaving himself available for Ireland duty is a load of cack tbh.

I understand that but putting his own income before the team and his legacy is not what I would call retiring gracefully. Which is why I used Hayes in the first place as an example of a player who hadn’t done so.

phog · 14-03-2012 2:38pm

totallegend wrote: »

No, of course not, nor was it Hayes' fault that Ireland couldn't produce a decent tight-head.

But still, there is the angle of "going out on top"; Hayes played on well after he was able to hack it at provincial and especially international level, maybe it skewed unfairly how he is viewed in hindsight?

I suppose one of the side-effects of the IRFU set-up is that no-one ever retires from internationals to concentrate on their province, like you often see in other countries.

Don't the provinces offer contracts to players that have lost their central contract?

irishbucsfan · 14-03-2012 2:42pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

thomond2006 wrote: »

If Hayes retired from Ireland duty, he would have immediately lost his international contract and a large portion of his salary. Therefore blaming him for leaving himself available for Ireland duty is a load of cack tbh.

I understand that but putting his own income before the team and his legacy is not what I would call retiring gracefully. Which is why I used Hayes in the first place as an example of a player who hadn’t done so.

The management pleaded with Hayes to stay on when he wanted to retire originally.

Absolutely no way he should be expected to do anything other than play for his country for as long as he can. It's not nor was it ever his or any other players job to develop young players. That's up to the management.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 14-03-2012 2:43pm

phog wrote: »

Don't the provinces offer contracts to players that have lost their central contract?

yes but its significantly smaller

according to TOL's agent in an interview a few weeks ago the central contract that TOL is coming off is six figures higher than anything Munster are allowed to offer to an IQ player.

I don't know how accurate that was but it just makes you think about the difference between central and provincial contracts

thomond2006 · 14-03-2012 2:43pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

I understand that but putting his own income before the team and his legacy is not what I would call retiring gracefully. Which is why I used Hayes in the first place as an example of a player who hadn’t done so.

oh my god

Are you saying that if you're offered a central contract you wouldn't take it? It's not greed, it's bloody common sense. The management clearly felt he was worth it, blame them and not the Bull if you have an issue with it.

tolosenc · 14-03-2012 2:45pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

If Hayes retired from Ireland duty, he would have immediately lost his international contract and a large portion of his salary. Therefore blaming him for leaving himself available for Ireland duty is a load of cack tbh.

It flabbergasts me that people can be so vitriolic about a player like that. Everyone knew he was past it at international level for a couple of years, which is not a problem, but someone decided he was better that Buckley (probably still is) and Ross (definitely was not). Not his fault he got picked. Similar happens with the football team. Paul McShane is rubbish, but it;s not his fault he gets picked, so get off his back!

irishbucsfan · 14-03-2012 2:47pm

Typical Kidney gold in the IT today. Asked if he thought referees had kept to their stated intentions of how they would officiate the 6 Nations he said:

"Refereeing is a tough job. No two games will ever be refereed exactly the same. It's the job for everybody to adjust to it. Lads are coming out and giving it their best go and its up to us to adjust accordingly as the game goes on."

TMI Declan.

Foxtrol · 14-03-2012 2:50pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The management pleaded with Hayes to stay on when he wanted to retire originally.

Absolutely no way he should be expected to do anything other than play for his country for as long as he can. It's not nor was it ever his or any other players job to develop young players. That's up to the management.

Well we differ here then. I see graceful retirement being a player realising that (possibly in spite what management say) you realise your time has come and that you’re holding back the team more than you’re bringing to it.

But actually do you really think the Irish management were begging Hayes to play in the last Autumn Internationals? That they begged him to start against the mighty Samoa (when he ended up being shoved around the park)?

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

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