Kenny sacks Bruton

SB-08

snow ghost wrote: »

What an embarassment on Vincent Browne - Bruton giggling away like a little child after being put on the ropes by Browne.

Does this Muppet Bruton honestly think he offers a viable alternative as a leader? He has no charisma, no credibility and no integrity as for him being a leader, that is just ridiculous.

He stabbed his leader in the back when the focus should clearly have been on ousting Cowen et al, and this giggling traitor with nothing to offer is doing more damage to his party than anyone could imagine.

Bruton - a disgraceful weasel.

He was nervous alright but I thought he handled it well considering it is VB afterall. Had Enda been there instead it wouldve been 100 times worse and I can't see how anyone could seriously think otherwise - watching Enda trying to come accross well in an interview is even more cringeworthy than Gordon Brown - that forced smile Kenny does in particular and his astonishingly poor communication skills, especially on the economy is the main reason why he needs to go and why FG are falling in the polls when they should be miles higher.

Bruton is far from perfect, no Irish politition is even close tbh, but he is on a totally different level in terms of coming accross as being knowledgable about the economy, competent and articulate - three things Enda lacks severly. I don't know about you but I certainly do not want the next leader of the country knowing as little about the economy as Enda Kenny appears to. I mean look at the mess we are in now with Cowen, and he had alot of experience with the economy prior to becoming taoiseach (obviously for the worse as we know too well but at least he had alot of experience in the field). The notion of having a taoiseach with the level of knowledge on the the most important issue - the economy as Enda appears to have is utterly ridiculous. Bruton may not be Obama in terms of communication skills but compared to Kenny he is quite clearly streets ahead and I am more than confident once he takes over we will see a distict rise in the polls for FG as they will no longer have such an utterly laughable leader.

I would love to see Enda on Vincent Browne though - it would make for some superb entertainment - he might even harp on about the now infamous 'CONTRACT' again.;)

RonMexico

snow ghost wrote: »

Come on... giggling away like school child caught pinching a cookie from the cookie jar doesn't engender any statesmen like qualities in him.

Kenny might be a bit wooden at times, but I believe he has integrity. After Bruton's actions, I believe Bruton he has no integrity and would be unelectable as leader.

Moreover, Bruton gave a weak drivelleing response when Browne asked him what he stood for.

Fianna Fail must be hoping that Bruton does oust Kenny - because it FF's only chance of getting into government after the next election.

Bruton is an absolute disgrace.

For someone that claims to have never voted Fine Gael you sure as hell come across as a Kenny autobot. The reality is that Kenny does not inspire people, is a poor public speaker, has failed to capitalise on the publics outrage at FF and has allowed Gilmore and Joan Brutal to pass them out in the polls. Enda is toast and not soon enough either.

Breezer

snow ghost wrote: »

Fianna Fail must be hoping that Bruton does oust Kenny - because it FF's only chance of getting into government after the next election.

This is unbelievable. For months if not years, people have said that Enda Kenny is the reason they won't vote for Fine Gael. They have dubbed him Fianna Fáil's secret weapon etc. They have said Richard Bruton is the man, that they would vote for Fine Gael if only Bruton took charge.

Bruton mounts a leadership challenge and all of a sudden Bruton is a traitor, he's going to keep Fianna Fáil in power, if only Enda had stayed, sure look at the Trojan work Enda did for the party...

It reminds me of how we treat Irish football managers to be honest. Maybe Roy Keane should be in charge of Fine Gael. Yes, Keane - now there's a man of substance, conviction; he'd remind you of Richard Bruton (before this afternoon...) :rolleyes:

yahoo_moe

snow ghost wrote: »

Moreover, Bruton gave a weak drivelleing response when Browne asked him what he stood for.

Same on the Frontline (didn't see VB).

I just can't get my head around the oddness of the whole thing at all - came up with a few different theories about how it links to the confidence vote in Cowen but ultimately discarded them all and concluded that Richard Bruton is just an incredibly egotistical man (and a much poorer politician than I thought).

Foxtrol

dixiefly wrote: »

Appalling answer by Bruton when asked the obvious question by Browne about the timing just before the no confidence motion in Cowen. He seemed to regard the dail vote as irrelevant ... a pretty inappropriate answer for someone that has aspirations to be Taoiseach.

Bruton needed an opportunity to bring up a leadership race and the polls over the last week gave it to him. I'd say he would have rather it not have been the same week as a no confidence motion but when the opportunity arose he was always going to take it.

Looking at the bigger picture this was the best chance he may ever have of becoming taoiseach. If you assume that the leader of FG will lead a government after the next election and even if they only lasts one term with Kenny in charge it would still be 7 years before there would, in all likelihood, be another leadership race. Even if FG were to take back power at the following election he would probably be waiting an overall of 12 years before having the chance to be taoiseach. Looking at it from that perspective the PR stunt of calling a no confidence vote in the government does seem quite "irrelevant" in his bigger picture.

Liam Byrne

Foxtrol wrote: »

Looking at it from that perspective the PR stunt of calling a no confidence vote in the government does seem quite "irrelevant" in his bigger picture.

It was hardly a "PR stunt" to represent the people's interests when two reports point out how Cowen screwed the country, now was it ?

Kenny took a chance on Thursday, while FF members were dossing off.

FF blocked it, adding to the perception that they are blocking the democratic process.

If Kenny hadn't tried for it, he wouldn't have been doing his job.

hotmail.com

If Kenny goes, he'll be quickly forgotten.

eoinbn

Bruton has always come across as a bit fidgety but there is little doubt that he knows his stuff. The problem with Kenny is that he also doesn't come across well AND that there is questions over his understanding of the issues. These might be ill-founded but it's very much on the minds of people when it comes to deciding who to vote for.

The woman at the end of the panel pointed out that Bruton has just given Fianna Fáil and Cowen a lifeline....distracting the media from the real issue.

When over the last two years hasn't there been a huge issue of the day? When George Lee left the party in Jan/Feb he was also accused of taking the spotlight off the government during a time of crisis- it's just one crisis after another in Ireland Inc. so there will never be a good time.

JonathanAnon

Could nobody have just got the whip to put around a message saying "No Fianna Gaeler go on any media source until the meeting tomorrow"... Best for FG was for Enda to step aside to deputy leader and remain in the organiser role, and let Bruton take the leadership. This is just a fkn disaster, worse than the George Lee fiasco..

If this is the way that FG go about business, we really should be worried about their competency if they are elected... Though the way they have been consistently shooting themselves in the foot since the last election, I dont think we'll have anything to worry about.

The only winners here are FF (because the two reports condemning their handling of the economy were not discussed in the media this week) and Labour (who will just push further ahead in the polls).

Breezer

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It was hardly a "PR stunt" to represent the people's interests when two reports point out how Cowen screwed the country, now was it ?

Kenny took a chance on Thursday, while FF members were dossing off.

FF blocked it, adding to the perception that they are blocking the democratic process.

If Kenny hadn't tried for it, he wouldn't have been doing his job.

I agree it's an important part of the democratic process Liam, but it's going to go exactly the same way as every other no confidence motion the Opposition has put down has gone.

Previously, people were decrying Kenny for doing this: "Shure look at him, always moaning and calling for resignations." (Often followed by "That Enda Kenny's useless, put Richard Bruton in charge.") Now all of a sudden this is vital to the country and Bruton shouldn't be disrupting it.

I'm not saying they're wrong, I've defended Kenny for putting them down all along. But I've concluded that the leader (or person likely to become leader) of Fine Gael simply can't win in this country.

Foxtrol

snow ghost wrote: »

Kenny might be a bit wooden at times, but I believe he has integrity. After Bruton's actions, I believe Bruton he has no integrity and would be unelectable as leader.

Moreover, Bruton gave a weak drivelleing response when Browne asked him what he stood for.

Fianna Fail must be hoping that Bruton does oust Kenny - because it FF's only chance of getting into government after the next election.

Bruton is an absolute disgrace.

That makes no sense. If I was anyone in FF I'd want Kenny to barely win his own "confidence" motion and limp on. Bruton has destroyed all Kenny's credibility and pushed all of his weaknesses into the spotlight. Anyone who wants the government to change need to hope Kenny goes with the least amount of resistance. (That is unless Kenny gets the miraculous support of all of his front bench)

snow ghost

RonMexico wrote: »

For someone that claims to have never voted Fine Gael you sure as hell come across as a Kenny autobot. The reality is that Kenny does not inspire people, is a poor public speaker, has failed to capitalise on the publics outrage at FF and has allowed Gilmore and Joan Brutal to pass them out in the polls. Enda is toast and not soon enough either.

RonMexico,

I can assure you that I have never voted for Fine Gael in my life, and have no reason to say otherwise.

My main political concern at the moment would be ousting the corrupt regime in government. In that respect, I am disgusted with Bruton for doing this and doing it when a there was a vote of no confidence against Cowen. What the hell was he thinking?

As someone with no allegiance to any Fine Gael representative, I can only say that is how I now perceive Bruton - as a backstabbing traitor.

As someone who would have considered voting for Fine Gael under Kenny, I would never vote for them under Bruton following his actions.

snow ghost

Foxtrol wrote: »

That makes no sense. If I was anyone in FF I'd want Kenny to barely win his own "confidence" motion and limp on. Bruton has destroyed all Kenny's credibility and pushed all of his weaknesses into the spotlight. Anyone who wants the government to change need to hope Kenny goes with the least amount of resistance. (That is unless Kenny gets the miraculous support of all of his front bench)

Foxtrol,

As I just posted to RonMexico, I am an non-FG voter, who would have voted for them - I wont vote for them under Bruton.

If there are other people like me - that is very benefical to FF.

snow ghost

yahoo_moe wrote: »

Same on the Frontline (didn't see VB).

I just can't get my head around the oddness of the whole thing at all - came up with a few different theories about how it links to the confidence vote in Cowen but ultimately discarded them all and concluded that Richard Bruton is just an incredibly egotistical man (and a much poorer politician than I thought).

Same as that - he has gone way down in my opinion of him.

Foxtrol

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It was hardly a "PR stunt" to represent the people's interests when two reports point out how Cowen screwed the country, now was it ?

Kenny took a chance on Thursday, while FF members were dossing off.

FF blocked it, adding to the perception that they are blocking the democratic process.

If Kenny hadn't tried for it, he wouldn't have been doing his job.

I do agree but its hardly a motion that anyone thinks is going to be won so hence I'd class it as one being done for PR purposes.

To try to take the morale high ground and say that Bruton is putting himself before this motion is to say that you actually think that if he'd come out backing Kenny that the motion would have had a chance in hell of passing without FF and Green's getting their voting buttons mixed up again.

Breezer

snow ghost wrote: »

Foxtrol,

As I just posted to RonMexico, I am an non-FG voter, who would have voted for them - I wont vote for them under Bruton.

If there are other people like me - that is very benefical to FF.

Fair enough snow ghost. But the overwhelming theme of the last few years regarding Fine Gael was how inept Kenny was and how if he only stepped down and allowed Bruton to run the show, people would vote for them. You can check back on this forum, there's probably 50 threads to that effect.

I find it amazing how everybody suddenly loves Enda Kenny today (I'm not directing this at you in particular).

SB-08

snow ghost wrote: »

.

As someone who would have considered voting for Fine Gael under Kenny, I would never vote for them under Bruton following his actions.

Thankfully most on the fence voters such as myself are the total opposite. Never in a million years would I have voted for FG under good ole Enda - sure had I been the casting director of Father Ted I'd have given him the job no problem but running the country? Enda? Not a chance. I have been saying for years I would vote for FG if Bruton, someone who actually knows what they are bloody talking about (for the most part anyways) was the leader, as have most people I know including FG voters who had switched to Labour solely due to Kenny's laughable performance in public. All you have to do is watch the Dail each week and Kenny - it takes him about five minutes to say 10 words FFS.:rolleyes:

Do you seriously think the spineless FF will voted against Cowen? Not a chance - they would been too afraid it will lead to an election which will result in them loosing their seats and their large salaries. It is yet another pointless move by Kenny and clearly has no chance of passing. Bruton had no choice but to do this now as Kenny was asking him to publicaly back him - would you rather he just lied like a FF minister would do?

snow ghost

Breezer wrote: »

Fair enough snow ghost. But the overwhelming theme of the last few years regarding Fine Gael was how inept Kenny was and how if he only stepped down and allowed Bruton to run the show, people would vote for them. You can check back on this forum, there's probably 50 threads to that effect.

I find it amazing how everybody suddenly loves Enda Kenny today (I'm not directing this at you in particular).

Fair point Breezer, perhaps it was the manner in which Bruton did this and his timing - he comes across very badly in my eyes for that.

To do this - and to his own leader and party - when a vote of no confidence was happening against Cowen, is just beyond belief, and for that reason I would not trust him to lead a government now. As he clearly has little cop on.

Foxtrol

snow ghost wrote: »

Foxtrol,

As I just posted to RonMexico, I am an non-FG voter, who would have voted for them - I wont vote for them under Bruton.

If there are other people like me - that is very benefical to FF.

At this stage (barring the head counts released to the media being wrong) this situation is only going to become more and more beneficial to FF the longer Kenny holds on to his position. FG could come out of this stronger if Kenny falls on his sword (that has been placed there by Bruton) in an attempt to unite the party. It looks at this stage that he has been out maneuvered by Bruton.

InvisibleBadger

I've been looking at the odds on Paddy Power for next FG leader, and Bruton is way ahead. Hayes and Varadkar are next in order, but Varadkar is only 31. Is Bruton the best candidate in FG? He didn't seem very leaderlike on VB tonight.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

oh my god !
they didnt kill kenny
YOU BA@STARDS !

Breezer

snow ghost wrote: »

Fair point Breezer, perhaps it was the manner in which Bruton did this and his timing - he comes across very badly in my eyes for that.

To do this - and to his own leader and party - when a vote of no confidence was happening against Cowen, is just beyond belief, and for that reason I would not trust him to lead a government now. As he clearly has little cop on.

I accept what you're saying, but at the same time I think we have to realise:

1) This no confidence vote is not going to succeed, just like every other one that's been put down in the lifetime of this Dáil.

2) Bruton's hand was forced, in my opinion. You had a particularly disastrous poll result for FG, on the back of a series of very mediocre ones at a time when the party should be riding high. You had the media questioning Kenny's ability to lead (as usual, admittedly). Bruton is an honest man. He's been unwaveringly loyal to Kenny for years, but when he was asked on live television whether or not he could still support Kenny, he couldn't honestly answer yes. He didn't say no, but obviously the media, and then Kenny himself, latched on to this. Yes, Bruton was privately sounding out support, but nothing would necessarily have happened before tomorrow. However, today Kenny, not Bruton, created this fiasco by sacking him.

IMO it would have been better to leave the entire leadership question until after the vote of no confidence tomorrow, which was what was intended to happen and the reason the FG front bench meeting was put back to tomorrow afternoon. Kenny, however, forced this situation by sacking Bruton. At that point, the focus was off FF and Cowen regardless of how Bruton responded, so he set the ball rolling regarding the leadership challenge.

RonMexico

snow ghost wrote: »

RonMexico,

I can assure you that I have never voted for Fine Gael in my life, and have no reason to say otherwise.

My main political concern at the moment would be ousting the corrupt regime in government. In that respect, I am disgusted with Bruton for doing this and doing it when a there was a vote of no confidence against Cowen. What the hell was he thinking?

As someone with no allegiance to any Fine Gael representative, I can only say that is how I now perceive Bruton - as a backstabbing traitor.

As someone who would have considered voting for Fine Gael under Kenny, I would never vote for them under Bruton following his actions.

Well I am the opposite. I have never voted Fine Gael but there was no way I was going to vote FF or labour in the next election. That left FG but with Enda Kenny in charge I wouldn't dare, leaving only independents. I am but one of many. I would gladly vote for FG led by Bruton in the morning however. Enda forced his hand after yet another damning poll. Bruton didn't orchestrate this, the public perception of Kenny forced this to a head.

sesna

Breezer wrote: »

IMO it would have been better to leave the entire leadership question until after the vote of no confidence tomorrow, which was what was intended to happen and the reason the FG front bench meeting was put back to tomorrow afternoon. Kenny, however, forced this situation by sacking Bruton. /QUOTE]

The confidence motion is going to be a farce as it is, thanks to Brutons awful timing. It would have been worse if Kenny had Bruton sitting beside him, while placing a leadship confidence motion in Cowen. He had no choice but to sack Bruton, who has been planning this since last February.

Breezer

sesna wrote: »

The confidence motion is going to be a farce as it is, thanks to Brutons awful timing. It would have been worse if Kenny had Bruton sitting beside him, while placing a leadship confidence motion in Cowen. He had no choice but to sack Bruton, who has been planning this since last February.

Not with everything out in the public arena, no. But the two have been colleagues and friends for 25 years, according to the pair of them. I see no reason why the matter could not have been kept private, within the party, for a further 24 hours.

I don't hold Kenny alone responsible for the situation. Reilly, Varadkar, Fitzgerald etc. should not have been talking to the media about leadership challenges before the confidence motion. Bruton attempted to avoid doing so: OK, it was blatantly obvious but still speculation until people started talking about phone calls being made etc.

I say this as someone who has consistently defended Kenny in the past: this is a nightmare situation, but what's done is done. The parliamentary party can now choose to have either Kenny or Bruton on the front bench (never mind the leadership), directing policy. I believe that Kenny has been a good chairman of the party, but without a strong financial voice, and with support already haemorrhaging to Labour over a series of opinion polls, if I had to choose one I know who it would be. It would seem like most of the front bench, and to be honest, most of the electorate, agree with me.

Foxtrol

Breezer wrote: »

Not with everything out in the public arena, no. But the two have been colleagues and friends for 25 years, according to the pair of them. I see no reason why the matter could not have been kept private, within the party, for a further 24 hours.

I don't hold Kenny alone responsible for the situation. Reilly, Varadkar, Fitzgerald etc. should not have been talking to the media about leadership challenges before the confidence motion. Bruton attempted to avoid doing so: OK, it was blatantly obvious but still speculation until people started talking about phone calls being made etc.

Politically I really dont see the logic in Kenny sacking Bruton unless he a) thinks he already has the support of the vast majority of the front bench or b) thinks he can influence them into supporting him if Bruton isnt there.
Its a massive gamble but if it does work Bruton will be end up being a back bench judas figure.

However, I agree that Kenny's made the wrong move by making it public as now anything other than resounding support leaves him out of any sort of power role in FG.

Breezer

Foxtrol wrote: »

However, I agree that Kenny's made the wrong move by making it public as now anything other than resounding support leaves him out of any sort of power role in FG.

I wouldn't necessarily say that. He is still well-liked within Fine Gael (and apparently all over the country as of this evening :rolleyes:) If Bruton wins, I can see Kenny retaining a senior position. It would acknowledge his ability and the fantastic work he has done within the party, while also helping to smooth over the split in the party that has now come to the fore. If egos have been too bruised this won't happen, but there doesn't seem to be any personal animosity between Bruton and Kenny. Both seem genuinely disappointed that it has come to this, and seem to simply be doing what they feel it their duty to do.

However if Kenny wins, I can't see how Bruton can come back to the front bench.

Foxtrol

Breezer wrote: »

I wouldn't necessarily say that. He is still well-liked within Fine Gael (and apparently all over the country as of this evening :rolleyes:) If Bruton wins, I can see Kenny retaining a senior position. It would acknowledge his ability and the fantastic work he has done within the party, while also helping to smooth over the split in the party that has now come to the fore. If egos have been too bruised this won't happen, but there doesn't seem to be any personal animosity between Bruton and Kenny. Both seem genuinely disappointed that it has come to this, and seem to simply be doing what they feel it their duty to do.

However if Kenny wins, I can't see how Bruton can come back to the front bench.

I think it all depends on how the next 24 hours go. I cant see Kenny being on the front bench in the near future if he tries to limp on after barely surviving his confidence motion and in the process causes multiple resignations before eventually resigning himself a few weeks/months down the line.

If he had kept things behind closed doors it would have been much easier for a deal to be made. At this stage with a defeat I think after saying a few words about uniting the party he would then need to take a step back from the publicity of a front bench role until the run up or post general election.

alank1234

sesna wrote: »

Breezer wrote: »

IMO it would have been better to leave the entire leadership question until after the vote of no confidence tomorrow, which was what was intended to happen and the reason the FG front bench meeting was put back to tomorrow afternoon. Kenny, however, forced this situation by sacking Bruton. /QUOTE]

The confidence motion is going to be a farce as it is, thanks to Brutons awful timing. It would have been worse if Kenny had Bruton sitting beside him, while placing a leadship confidence motion in Cowen. He had no choice but to sack Bruton, who has been planning this since last February.

Hi
stay with me for a mo - WHY NOW - why did Bruton choose this moment - when all of the attention should be on FF ?? Madness - NO -

Conspiracy theorists will love this - - - - - - -

suppose for a mo that Bruton has a pact with the greens - he will team with them in the next election (poss as well as Lab) in return for the greens NOT voting with the govt tomorrow (tues) - the govt falls and the decision on Thursday for FG is now - who do you want to lead you into the forthcoming general election - Kenny or Bruton! That goes in Brutons favour I reckon - the greens get to shore up their position and get into the next govt - FG get the new leader - and lets face it - Kenny has NEVER been popular - and we end up with a unity or peoples govt as it will be called Im sure

---

Don't get me wrong - not saying i like it - or even believe it - but comments welcome - otherwise - WHY NOW - I know 1 thing - its no accident!!!!!!

Alan K - Laois

Breezer

alank1234 wrote: »

Hi
stay with me for a mo - WHY NOW - why did Bruton choose this moment - when all of the attention should be on FF ?? Madness - NO -

Why now? A chain of events: Bruton reacted to a long series of relatively poor polls. The media (beginning with Miriam O'Callaghan, who knew fine well what she was doing) went into a frenzy over one very dramatic poll. A few key FG figures stupidly took the bait and started talking. Kenny had a moment of panic and hit the nuclear button. The media reacted to this, taking all focus off FF. Bruton threw his hat in the ring, knowing it was now or never.

Conspiracy theorists will love this - - - - - - - suppose for a mo that Bruton has a pact with the greens - he will team with them in the next election (poss as well as Lab) in return for the greens NOT voting with the govt tomorrow (tues)

I guess I'm not a conspiracy theorist. Why would Bruton, or anyone else, team with the Greens? They're finished. Gilmore isn't going to be teaming with anyone before an election, he wants to be Taoiseach (and quite possibly will be. Remember what happened when the media told us Joe Higgins could seriously become an MEP?)