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Bloody Sunday killings to be ruled unlawful

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    #242
    gent9662
    Closed Accounts Posts: 697 ✭✭✭gent9662


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    What is your point, exactly?


    Time to move on and forgive and forget


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    #243
    Promac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,407 ✭✭✭Promac


    gandalf wrote: »
    Who is this unionist whackjob on Spotlight tonight, Gregory Campbell. Did anyone else just watch that disgusting inability to accept the Saville Report. He finished with a rant saying the IRA were state sponsored from the Southern Side of the border. With hatred and a twisted attitude like that is there any hope for reconciliation in Northern Ireland.

    None at all I'm afraid. That's why all the Irish people from Northern Ireland are leaving.


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    #244
    Livvie
    Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Livvie


    caseyann wrote: »
    Sorry i meant the ones that lived here and the big wigs who lived off the back of Irish slaves.Not the normal everyday joes in England.No insult intended :)

    None taken. :)


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    #245
    Promac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,407 ✭✭✭Promac


    dclane wrote: »
    Time to move on and forgive and forget

    Why can't you let people have 1 friggin day of happiness? 1 day to enjoy the result they've been waiting on for 38 years.


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    #246
    citytillidie
    Registered Users Posts: 22,061 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    dclane wrote: »
    Simple fact is that gunfire came out of the bogside, the British army was perfectly within their right to return fire. The collateral damage that was caused as a result of them returning fire was not and should not be classified as murder.

    If anybody was to blame for the deaths of the innocent it should be those IRA men that fired at the soldiers. I think the report was a complete waist of time and resources.

    How can you return fire after you have opened fire?

    ******



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    #247
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Great video here on the crowd's response to Cameron's statement. Would bring a tear to your eye: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2010/jun/15/northernireland


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    #248
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭caseyann


    dclane wrote: »
    How many Jews did the Nazis murder? Or how many Vietnamese did the Americans kill, or how many Japanese for that matter? Why do they forgive and forget?

    yet you want to persist with this anti english theme, as I said, I lost a relative to the troubles, I think that gives me more of a mandate to state my opinions.

    If you want to quote history you will realise that every nation in europe fought against each other and bad things happened but how far back are you going to go? 400 yrs of oppression and tyranny!! yawn! heard it all before and dig the ballads! but step into the 2000's mate!

    Every nation in Europe? Name them all? This isn't about them or any of that its about 14 people and 38 years of lies and ignoring it.Its not about the IRA.It is about trained apparent professional army shooting on civil rights march.And no matter what you say the British have held their hands up and admitted it.


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    #249
    KELTICKNIGHTT
    Registered Users Posts: 3,799 ✭✭✭KELTICKNIGHTT


    Livvie wrote: »
    That's true. I hope that this verdict will make them more aware.

    I actually know two people who are still too scared to travel to Ireland because they fear that as English, they might be attacked. And I would harbour a guess that a huge number of English people have never even realised that the IRA was not the Irish army. It's just really sad. And frustrating.
    alot of english come too ireland,like alot irish go to uk and all ok
    have too say thats weird


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    #250
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    caseyann wrote: »
    And again like for like,How many Irish people died at the hands of British rule and the British people stood back and let it happen.More or less like what they did in India and other such countries.They impoverished and murdered and enslaved Irish people for how long?
    Lets go back way back and start counting our Irish dead if you want to play it like that.

    Yeah, why not have a good old anti British rant while your at it.:rolleyes:


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    #251
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    dclane wrote: »
    I am as Irish as they come my friend, collateral damage happens during a war and can you honestly say that the soldiers were wrong to return fire when fired upon?

    The innocent killings were caused the actions of the IRA and it is the IRA who should apologise to the families of the dead. The English followed orders and did things by the book. The report means nothing and nothing should come from it.

    Humane Irish or not you are wrong and that is a fact. Your views are based on falsehoods. However, the soldiers did do things by the book is so far as following orders and no more. They were ordered to open fire on innocent civilians, unarmed and waving a white flag. They did so.
    However, 'I was only following orders' is no defence when it comes to the slaughter of innocents.


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    #252
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭caseyann


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Yeah, why not have a good old anti British rant while your at it.:rolleyes:


    Its not like that and stop picking,these are pointing to the guilty from previous.Not now.And i dont like those who oppressed my family for generations and i dont have to.Doesnt reflect on English today:rolleyes:


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    #253
    Livvie
    Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Livvie


    KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »
    alot of english come too ireland,like alot irish go to uk and all ok
    have too say thats weird

    Weird and a bit pathetic really. But it just goes to show what damage the media can do, especially to people who are maybe simplistic in nature, and/or low on intelligence.


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    #254
    weepee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭weepee


    There is 'NO' evidence that the IRA fired at troops in Derry, and that the Crown Forces simply 'returned' fire.


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    #255
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Shea O'Meara wrote: »
    Humane Irish or not you are wrong and that is a fact. Your views are based on falsehoods. However, the soldiers did do things by the book is so far as following orders and no more. They were ordered to open fire on innocent civilians, unarmed and waving a white flag. They did so.
    However, 'I was only following orders' is no defence when it comes to the slaughter of innocents.

    Who gave the order to fire on Innocent civilians? The piont of this report was to lay the facts bare, somewhere in this report a fact like that would be highlighted.

    Whatever the last order the troops where given was I am pretty sure it was not "Go shoot some unarmed civilians"

    Just so I am clear I am asking you this question
    Who (name and rank )gave the order to fire on Innocent civilians?

    Because you have stated in the above quotation it was so

    I am not looking for any other comment.


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    #256
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    This thread is starting to drift off into fantasy land.

    If orders were given, I missed that bit in what I have read so far.

    Most people in England know the difference between the IRA and the Irish army, maybe there are a few simple minded ones that don't, but i don't know any. In fact, i don't know many English people who haven't been to Ireland. I think Livvie should maybe save those sort of comments for After Hours.


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    #257
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Zambia232 wrote: »
    Who gave the order to fire on Innocent civilians? The piont of this report was to lay the facts bare, somewhere in this report a fact like that would be highlighted.

    Whatever the last order the troops where given was I am pretty sure it was not "Go shoot some unarmed civilians"

    Just so I am clear I am asking you this question
    Who (name and rank )gave the order to fire on Innocent civilians?

    Because you have stated in the above quotation it was so

    I am not looking for any other comment.

    On Spotlight(BBC) tonight, a group of former soldiers said Wilford was a scapegoat for orders from above. They did not say what the orders were but one can only conclude they were specific.


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    #258
    Deep Easterly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭Deep Easterly


    Shea O'Meara wrote: »

    'I was only following orders' is no defence when it comes to the slaughter of innocents.

    Nail on head! ;)


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    #259
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    "Colonel Wilford was directly in charge of the soldiers who went into the Bogside to arrest rioters. It was his job to run a successful operation to round up trouble-makers, protect the public and get his troops back to base unharmed."

    If Wilford did issue such an order then why did only 5 soldiers shoot people?

    I have never served in a combat company but I cant see this degree of Micromanaging from Colonel to Private.


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    #260
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Zambia232 wrote: »
    "Colonel Wilford was directly in charge of the soldiers who went into the Bogside to arrest rioters. It was his job to run a successful operation to round up trouble-makers, protect the public and get his troops back to base unharmed."

    If Wilford did issue such an order then why did only 5 soldiers shoot people?

    I have never served in a combat company but I cant see this degree of Micromanaging from Colonel to Private.

    I thought Wiford was told not to go in, but chose to ignore the order, which is what is supposed to have caused the confusion?

    The manner in which these people were killed gives me the feeling it is panicked, undisciplined soldiers, not men instructed to kill people.


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    #261
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    The manner in which these people were killed gives me the feeling it is panicked, undisciplined soldiers, not men instructed to kill people.

    Maybe - But it doesn't explain many of the killings. Like the shooting of a kid who lay mortally wounded on the ground.. Or the murder of a man waving a white flag who was attempting to assist another dieing man.

    These aren't the actions of panicked men in my opinion. They are the actions of blood-thirsty men who were waiting for something to kick off.


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    #262
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    gurramok wrote: »
    On Spotlight(BBC) tonight, a group of former soldiers said Wilford was a scapegoat for orders from above. They did not say what the orders were but one can only conclude they were specific.

    Do you have a video by any chance?


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    #263
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Sorry here is the rest I simply quoted that to identify the guy named

    Colonel Wilford was directly in charge of the soldiers who went into the Bogside to arrest rioters. It was his job to run a successful operation to round up trouble-makers, protect the public and get his troops back to base unharmed.

    Derek Wilford was in charge of the Parachute Regiment on the day
    But Saville concludes that the soldiers only went into the Bogside because the colonel went further than his orders from Brigadier MacLellan. His superior wanted to avoid running battles that would make it impossible to distinguish between rioters and peaceful marchers.

    "Colonel Wilford either deliberately disobeyed Brigadier MacLellan's order or failed for no good reason to appreciate the clear limits of what he had been authorised to do," said Saville.

    "Colonel Wilford decided to send Support Company into the Bogside because at the time he gave the order he had concluded (without informing Brigadier MacLellan) that there was now no prospect of making any, or any significant, arrests in the area he had originally suggested, as the rioting was dying down and people were moving away.

    "In addition it appears to us that he wanted to demonstrate that the way to deal with rioters in Londonderry was not for soldiers to shelter behind barricades like (as he put it) "Aunt Sallies" while being stoned, as he perceived the local troops had been doing, but instead to go aggressively after rioters, as he and his soldiers had been doing in Belfast.

    "What Colonel Wilford failed to appreciate, or regarded as of little consequence, was that his soldiers… would almost certainly be unable to identify anyone as a rioter."

    link

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/northern_ireland/foyle_and_west/10287463.stm


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    #264
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    The manner in which these people were killed gives me the feeling it is panicked, undisciplined soldiers, not men instructed to kill people.

    I think the only people who knew their state of mind was them. However even if they where in Panic or undisciplined their actions were still inexcusable.

    While I stand by the position I don't believe and the report does not state they had orders to target unarmed people. I cant think of any other reason these men had to fire that is lawfull.


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    #265
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Maybe - But it doesn't explain many of the killings. Like the shooting of a kid who lay mortally wounded on the ground.. Or the murder of a man waving a white flag who was attempting to assist another dieing man.

    These aren't the actions of panicked men in my opinion. They are the actions of blood-thirsty men who were waiting for something to kick off.

    Or maybe a mixture of the two.


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    #266
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Zambia232 wrote: »
    I think the only people who knew their state of mind was them. However even if they where in Panic or undisciplined their actions were still inexcusable.

    While I stand by the position I don't believe and the report does not state they had orders to target unarmed people. I cant think of any other reason these men had to fire that is lawfull.

    I would agree 100% with you there.


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    #267
    Livvie
    Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Livvie


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    This thread is starting to drift off into fantasy land.

    If orders were given, I missed that bit in what I have read so far.

    Most people in England know the difference between the IRA and the Irish army, maybe there are a few simple minded ones that don't, but i don't know any. In fact, i don't know many English people who haven't been to Ireland. I think Livvie should maybe save those sort of comments for After Hours.

    Sorry - I didn't want to offend anyone. I was just referring to two people I know and saying how sad it was, not suggesting that the nation is full of people like that. It was in response to a comment about how British people allowed it all to happen...most British people were guilty of ignorance of the facts. They didn't know the history, and believed what the media fed them.


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    #268
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    Zambia232 wrote: »
    Who gave the order to fire on Innocent civilians? The piont of this report was to lay the facts bare, somewhere in this report a fact like that would be highlighted.

    Whatever the last order the troops where given was I am pretty sure it was not "Go shoot some unarmed civilians"

    Just so I am clear I am asking you this question
    Who (name and rank )gave the order to fire on Innocent civilians?

    Because you have stated in the above quotation it was so

    I am not looking for any other comment.

    "The soldiers of Support Company who entered the Bogside area of Derry 'did so as a result of an order ... which should have not been given' by their commander, the report said.
    The civilians died after troops opened fire on a civil rights march.

    Mr Cameron said Lord Saville 'finds that on balance the first shot in the vicinity of the march was fired by the British Army.
    'He finds that none of the casualties shot by the soldiers of Support Company was armed with a firearm.'"

    Do you know what? Ask your Prime Minister, It's Cameron quoted here;)

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0615/bloodysunday.html

    Any slim chance you can be happy the families have some peace of mind after 38 years of lies?


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    #269
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    This thread is starting to drift off into fantasy land.

    If orders were given, I missed that bit in what I have read so far.

    .....

    Please see post above.


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    #270
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Ordering troops into bogside is somewhat different to ordering them to open fire.

    Any chance you could stick to the facts and respect the memories of those killed by not sensationalising it more than necessary.


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    #271
    joolsveer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭joolsveer


    I am old enough to remember Bloody Sunday. I was growing up in a Dublin which seemed on another planet with regard to the troubles. As soon as this slaughter was perpetrated, however, I know of schoolmates who turned into militant republicans and travelled to the north to join up. The mother of a friend of mine set off for Derry to help out. It was a turning point in the view of many this side of the border. God knows what effect it had on those in Derry and Belfast.

    I soon after witnessed the protests at the British Embassy in Merrion Square which led to the petrol bombing and burning of the building. There was an atmosphere of hatred towards the British establishment because of their ability to tar the victims as nail bombers and terrorists.


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