Bloody Sunday killings to be ruled unlawful

KeithAFC

Zambia232 wrote: »

If your actions are childish and immature you should not be surprised when people tell you its past your bedtime.

You have contributed nothing to this thread.

In your opinion. Remember to say that.:rolleyes:

loldog

KeithAFC wrote: »

In your opinion. Remember to say that.:rolleyes:

That's a good point Keith.

.

drakshug

citytillidie wrote: »

As was posted the IRA have said sorry for their crimes, those who commented them have spent time in jail for it and during the peace process they were let out.

So now can we have closure from both sides? I hope so or are we going to still get the usual neanderthal Unionist rhetoric and the usual anti Brit Republican Rhetoric.
Crimes were committed by both sides. Enough were killed and maimed.
Let us hope their lives were not in vain and the people of this island can live together in peace and equality.

gsxr1

KeithAFC wrote: »

No Surrender sums it up perfectly.

We will all live perfectly happy together and im happy now but we will never forget and we will never live under the Irish flag.

thats Ok . thats your thing. I have plenty of friends who believe the same

the electorate will vote on such matters.

But this thread is not the place to debate such a matter. Please dont

Exile 1798

There have been a number of very illogical and fact-less posts from supporters of the British Army in this thread trying to deflect from the obvious conclusion that British soldiers should be tried for murder.

I was going to quote them and reply but there have been so many that it would be impossible. Their arguments they can be summed up as this:

* What about the IRA? What about this incident or that incident? These should all be investigated!
* If IRA members aren't charged for this or that, then British soldiers shouldn't be charged over the Bloody Sunday massacre.

The fact is that past incidents involving the IRA are still open to investigation and people accused of involvement are still subject to prosecution. In 2008 an Armagh man was charged with the "murder" of a active duty British soldier in 1977. The year before two Tyrone men where charged with the "attempted murder" of another British soldier from 1981. The PSNI has said that wherever evidence exists they will investigate and pursue prosecution and their actions bare this out.

So not only are the "but what about them?" arguments distasteful, they are also completely wrong in their assumptions.

As Irish citizens are being charged and are open to being charged with the "murders" of British soldiers over 30 years previous, then surely we are right to expect British soldiers to be charged with the murders of Irish civilians from 1972, especially when all the evidence is well known?

dlofnep

Hear Hear!

sensibleken

Exile 1798 wrote: »

There have been a number of very illogical and fact-less posts from supporters of the British Army in this thread trying to deflect from the obvious conclusion that British soldiers should be tried for murder.

I was going to quote them and reply but there have been so many that it would be impossible. Their arguments they can be summed up as this:

* What about the IRA? What about this incident or that incident? These should all be investigated!
* If IRA members aren't charged for this or that, then British soldiers shouldn't be charged over the Bloody Sunday massacre.

The fact is that past incidents involving the IRA are still open to investigation and people accused of involvement are still subject to prosecution. In 2008 an Armagh man was charged with the "murder" of a active duty British soldier in 1977. The year before two Tyrone men where charged with the "attempted murder" of another British soldier from 1981. The PSNI has said that wherever evidence exists they will investigate and pursue prosecution and their actions bare this out.

So not only are the "but what about them?" arguments distasteful, they are also completely wrong in their assumptions.

As Irish citizens are being charged and are open to being charged with the "murders" of British soldiers over 30 years previous, then surely we are right to expect British soldiers to be charged with the murders of Irish civilians from 1972, especially when all the evidence is well known?

This should be the closing arguement in this debate. A British crime is solved and the loyalists shout what 'what about the IRA', then a nationalist crime is solved and the nationalists shout 'what about the British army'.

its a bit like a never ending game of tennis where each player keeps shouting its their turn to hit the ball just as its flying toward them.

the book of the troubles is not finished, this is just one more chapter completed. cant we just be thankfull that these types of declarations can now be made in a peacefull and rational enviroment?

[-0-]

The soldiers medals given to them by the Queen need to be taken off them.
The soldiers also need to be held accountable. They should be locked up or hung.

Fratton Fred

[-0-] wrote: »

The soldiers medals given to them by the Queen need to be taken off them.
The soldiers also need to be held accountable. They should be locked up or hung.

what medals were they given?I know Wilford received an OBE 12 months later, but what other medals were given out?

I doubt very much if anyone is going to be hung over this, it's kind of contrary to UK and EU law.

gurramok

'Bloody Sunday soldiers like 'Nazi stormtroopers'
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/bloody-sunday-soldiers-like-nazi-stormtroopers-2223356.html

Fallout from the Saville Report on Bloody Sunday continued yesterday with a former senior British army officer describing the soldiers involved in shootings as "more like Nazi stormtroopers than British paratroopers".

Colonel Richard Kemp, who served seven tours of duty in Northern Ireland and commanded British troops in Afghanistan, said his immediate reaction to the report was that "guilty soldiers should be jailed for a long time".

He went on: "I think that the actions we have heard described are much more like the actions of Nazi stormtroopers than British paratroopers."

Well said Richard.

Fratton Fred

gurramok wrote: »

'Bloody Sunday soldiers like 'Nazi stormtroopers'
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/bloody-sunday-soldiers-like-nazi-stormtroopers-2223356.html
Well said Richard.

From what I gather, there are a lot of people in the army who want them made examples of, as they brought shame on their regiment and the army as a whole.

I can't say I disagree.

weepee

Its very simple. The 'spearhead' Regiment of the British Army, The Parachute Regiment, were sent from Belfast, where they had previously killed 11 civilians in two days, to put a stop to a Nationalist protest. A Regiment which is trained in aggressive combat, not some policing operation.

Fratton Fred

weepee wrote: »

Its very simple. The 'spearhead' Regiment of the British Army, The Parachute Regiment, were sent from Belfast, where they had previously killed 11 civilians in two days, to put a stop to a Nationalist protest. A Regiment which is trained in aggressive combat, not some policing operation.

The parachute regiment are trained to jump out of a planne, yomp 50 miles and kill people. Sending them in to do police work was always a flawed plan.

Am I right in thinking that after that rotation they never went back?

KELTICKNIGHTT

KeithAFC wrote: »

No Surrender sums it up perfectly.

We will all live perfectly happy together and im happy now but we will never forget and we will never live under the Irish flag.

you be so lucky

weepee

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The parachute regiment are trained to jump out of a planne, yomp 50 miles and kill people. Sending them in to do police work was always a flawed plan.

Am I right in thinking that after that rotation they never went back?

All three regiments of the Parachute Regiment did 14 tours of duty in the North, ending in 05.

KELTICKNIGHTT

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

And what happens if a majority votes for a united Ireland?

better if we didnt if same as these comments

weepee

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

better if we didnt if same as these comments

Yeah, you could go on at pretending the north isnt an Irish issue.

KELTICKNIGHTT

weepee wrote: »

Yeah, you could go on at pretending the north isnt an Irish issue.

not really,grew up with it and some dont seeem to have moved into mordern times,after all,is is about what happen on bloody sunday and who knows if the BA didnt do what they did,im happy as many in ireland and sure the worls who know about it that they got peace and truth for there loved ones,

weepee

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

not really,grew up with it and some dont seeem to have moved into mordern times,after all,is is about what happen on bloody sunday and who knows if the BA didnt do what they did,im happy as many in ireland and sure the worls who know about it that they got peace and truth for there loved ones,

I will agree-the most important thing to me was that the relatives victims got closure.

KELTICKNIGHTT

weepee wrote: »

I will agree-the most important thing to me was that the relatives victims got closure.

think most would,think if bloody sunday didnt happen,maybe we be looking at different events afterwards,but who knows

weepee

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

think most would,think if bloody sunday didnt happen,maybe we be looking at different events afterwards,but who knows

Dont know, these troops were building themselves a reputation in Belfast for taking no shxt, killing 11 people in Springhill and Ballymurphy the summer before.

They also went on to kill in the New Lodge, Ardoyne and Oldpark after Bloody Sunday.

KELTICKNIGHTT

weepee wrote: »

Dont know, these troops were building themselves a reputation in Belfast for taking no shxt, killing 11 people in Springhill and Ballymurphy the summer before.

They also went on to kill in the New Lodge, Ardoyne and Oldpark after Bloody Sunday.

i know they where brought in specialy ,also dont see anything happen too them because of report and any court time which i dont think will ever happen,i served in irish defence forces along time ago along the border.but very happy for familys because of what was in report,they said alot more that i thought they would,happy for people of derry

weepee

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

i know they where brought in specialy ,also dont see anything happen too them because of report and any court time which i dont think will ever happen,i served in irish defence forces along time ago along the border,but very happy for familys because of what was in report,they said alot more that i thought they would,happy for people of derry

The British government went as far as it was prepared to go, during the week. The Parachute Regiment will remain intact, the soldiers involved, especially soldier F, will never go on trial, unless a civil action is taking against him, and as far as Westminster is concerned, the case is closed.
Interesting that so much talk was about the excessive cost, didnt mention how the cost multiplied because of challenges at every turn.

PS: Went and signed up for the Defence Forces in Monaghan in 81, couldnt go ahead with it due to circumstances, always wondered how life would have turned out if I had.

KELTICKNIGHTT

weepee wrote: »

The British government went as far as it was prepared to go, during the week. The Parachute Regiment will remain intact, the soldiers involved, especially soldier F, will never go on trial, unless a civil action is taking against him, and as far as Westminster is concerned, the case is closed.
Interesting that so much talk was about the excessive cost, didnt mention how the cost multiplied because of challenges at every turn.

PS: Went and signed up for the Defence Forces in Monaghan in 81, couldnt go ahead with it due to circumstances, always wondered how life would have turned out if I had.

was ups and downs ,but got too travel you could say ,abit over seas ,did good few tours before i left,then went over seas ,but glad i did join,

Noreen1

I'm genuinely pleased for the families of the Bloody Sunday victims, but I am also saddened that it has brought a lot of bitterness to the fore.

I can sympathise with all of the people who lost loved ones in Northern Ireland. The truth is, there were far too many innocent victims, both Nationalist and Unionist.

It is clear that some people will never obtain closure, and from a purely Humanitarian viewpoint, that is a real tragedy, both for the people themselves, and the Communities they live in.

Unfortunately, there is no easy fix for this. Realistically, there is no way that inquiries can be carried out into the murders carried out by paramilitary organisations, whether those organisations were Loyalist or Republican.
The most we can hope for there is that justice will be administered impartially by the forces of law and order - and I, for one, genuinely hope that that will happen.

However, if that were to bring old tensions to the fore, in the way that the Saville report has, then it would be better if no-one - on either side got justice.

On the other hand, if it leads to the kind of hope for reconciliation that was demonstrated in the Bogside today, when the Bishops reached the hand of Friendship and Reconciliation to the people of the Bogside, and were accepted, then no amount of money could pay for that!

IMO, both parties deserve the utmost respect. Fair play where it's due!

Only the people of Northern Ireland, whether Nationalist or Unionist, can decide the reaction to any possible forthcoming proceedings.

IMO, it is time for both sides of the Political divide to try to truly take on board that grave hurt was inflicted by both sides. Only then will any further investigation, whether in the form of an inquiry or a criminal trial, bring closure and hope for real peace.

Noreen

weepee

Noreen1 wrote: »

I'm genuinely pleased for the families of the Bloody Sunday victims, but I am also saddened that it has brought a lot of bitterness to the fore.

I can sympathise with all of the people who lost loved ones in Northern Ireland. The truth is, there were far too many innocent victims, both Nationalist and Unionist.

It is clear that some people will never obtain closure, and from a purely Humanitarian viewpoint, that is a real tragedy, both for the people themselves, and the Communities they live in.

Unfortunately, there is no easy fix for this. Realistically, there is no way that inquiries can be carried out into the murders carried out by paramilitary organisations, whether those organisations were Loyalist or Republican.
The most we can hope for there is that justice will be administered impartially by the forces of law and order - and I, for one, genuinely hope that that will happen.

However, if that were to bring old tensions to the fore, in the way that the Saville report has, then it would be better if no-one - on either side got justice.

On the other hand, if it leads to the kind of hope for reconciliation that was demonstrated in the Bogside today, when the Bishops reached the hand of Friendship and Reconciliation to the people of the Bogside, and were accepted, then no amount of money could pay for that!

IMO, both parties deserve the utmost respect. Fair play where it's due!

Only the people of Northern Ireland, whether Nationalist or Unionist, can decide the reaction to any possible forthcoming proceedings.

IMO, it is time for both sides of the Political divide to try to truly take on board that grave hurt was inflicted by both sides. Only then will any further investigation, whether in the form of an inquiry or a criminal trial, bring closure and hope for real peace.

Noreen

Noreen, closure will only arrive when the last person who lived thru it passes away. Ive suffered PTSD for 40 years, there wont be any enquiry into that.

Noreen1

weepee wrote: »

Noreen, closure will only arrive when the last person who lived thru it passes away. Ive suffered PTSD for 40 years, there wont be any enquiry into that.

No, unfortunately, there wont. And even if there were compensation paid to every victim, it could never compensate for the suffering caused to you, or the people of Northern Ireland.

The best that can be hoped for is that wounds and tensions wont be exascerbated by any enquiries - that was the main point I was trying to make - I wasn't trying to minimise the real hurt that has been caused to the people of Northern Ireland in any way whatsoever.

Closure might arrive when the last person who lived through it passes away. Much as I wish it could be different, healing the divide will probably take a lot longer. Injustice has a long memory - maybe the best we can hope for as a result of the troubles is that people (Especially people who are in a position of power, no matter what their political affiliation, or social standing) will learn the lesson that injustice generally only breeds more injustice, and it is usually the innocent that suffer the most.
Only when that lesson is taken on board by people throughout the world can there be real peace and social justice.
I think that's a dream worth struggling for.

Noreen

weepee

Noreen1 wrote: »

No, unfortunately, there wont. And even if there were compensation paid to every victim, it could never compensate for the suffering caused to you, or the people of Northern Ireland.

The best that can be hoped for is that wounds and tensions wont be exascerbated by any enquiries - that was the main point I was trying to make - I wasn't trying to minimise the real hurt that has been caused to the people of Northern Ireland in any way whatsoever.

Closure might arrive when the last person who lived through it passes away. Much as I wish it could be different, healing the divide will probably take a lot longer. Injustice has a long memory - maybe the best we can hope for as a result of the troubles is that people (Especially people who are in a position of power, no matter what their political affiliation, or social standing) will learn the lesson that injustice generally only breeds more injustice, and it is usually the innocent that suffer the most.
Only when that lesson is taken on board by people throughout the world can there be real peace and social justice.
I think that's a dream worth struggling for.

Noreen

It never crossed my mind that you were attempting to demeanour the situation, apologies if thats how it came across.

Your correct, even after the last person passes away, the hurt will remain, lets be honest, politics in the south are still to a degree split down 'civil war' lines, yet all those who lived thru it are gone now.

My compensation will be, if my children never have to witness the events I saw, or the fear I felt, the utter hopelessness of every day living, and of course, a childhood which got mislead at a very young age.

Sadly for Unionism, they are a self diminishing mindset, never in the 400 years of planters living in Ireland, have they made any serious attempt to amalgamate into Irish society, on the contrary, they done their job well, until 1921, keeping Ireland, just that little piece of the Empire. Now they are reduced to six north eastern counties, were, in four of those counties, they are a minority, and in the capital, Belfast, its running about 50/50.

So, evolution will rid this land of British shackles once and for all-I just wont be around to see it happen.

Noreen1

weepee wrote: »

It never crossed my mind that you were attempting to demeanour the situation, apologies if thats how it came across.

No problem. I hope your PTS improves.

Noreen