Bloody Sunday killings to be ruled unlawful

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

Yep, that's what I thought. Deflect, dodge, deny.

Hang on, I haven't dodged anything. It would appear that you are the one dodging and denying things.

walshb

how do you know what Martin intended that day? For the record, it would be a massive risk for any Irish person to go around carrying a weapon in the North Of Ireland. I don't believe it was proved that Martin had any weapon in his possession.

If he did he would have been asking to get shot. The British would relish the chance to gun down any Irish person with a weapon, and in this case, without a ****ing weapon.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Hang on, I haven't dodged anything. It would appear that you are the one dodging and denying things.

You're the one trying to turn this into Lord Savilles report on Martin Mc Guinness. Therefore...

Nodin

walshb wrote: »

how do you know what Martin intended that day? For the record, it would be a massive risk for any Irish person to go around carrying a weapon in the North Of Ireland. I don't believe it was proved that Martin had any weapon in his possession.

If he did he would have been asking to get shot. The British would relish the chance to gun down any Irish person with a weapon, and in this case, without a ****ing weapon.

Don't take the bait. If somebody wants to discuss Marty, let them start a thread.

karma_

I fail to see what your point is Fred. Would you really be shocked that members of the IRA were in the Bogside? Really?

Jaap

walshb wrote: »

I take it that you lost nobody in this massacre?

Justice has been FINALLY served, it does not matter how long ago it was, it was wanted and needed, and eventually the British soldiers are officially found to be killers, killers of unarmed persons.

I didn't lose anybody in this massacre...but Bloody Sunday only accounted for 14 deaths of almost 3000 during the troubles...that is about half a percentage!!!
BUT every life is important!!! We needed an investigation in to what went on that day!!!
14 deaths = 200 millions pounds spent on the Saville Enquiry
Just as we need an equiry in to all other deaths...don't you think...to give closure to other families???
Investigating 3000 deaths = 42857 million...go on George Osborne...sign the cheque!!!

Nodin

Jaap wrote: »

I didn't lose anybody in this massacre...but Bloody Sunday only accounted for 14 deaths of almost 3000 during the troubles...that is about half a percentage!!!
BUT every life is important!!! We needed an investigation in to what went on that day!!!
14 deaths = 200 millions pounds spent on the Saville Enquiry
Just as we need an equiry in to all other deaths...don't you think...to give closure to other families???
Investigating 3000 deaths = 42857 million...go on George Osborne...sign the cheque!!!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66434336&postcount=311

karma_

Jaap wrote: »

I didn't lose anybody in this massacre...but Bloody Sunday only accounted for 14 deaths of almost 3000 during the troubles...that is about half a percentage!!!
BUT every life is important!!! We needed an investigation in to what went on that day!!!
14 deaths = 200 millions pounds spent on the Saville Enquiry
Just as we need an equiry in to all other deaths...don't you think...to give closure to other families???
Investigating 3000 deaths = 42857 million...go on George Osborne...sign the cheque!!!

An expensive lesson all right, but maybe you should be directing your rage at Widgery for flat out lying the first time around. The truth then would have avoided this.

Also, just grasp the nettle and admit that there is a marked difference in the Army killing innocent people(then lying to cover it up)and terrorists killing innocent people, it really ain't that hard to make that differentiation.

Jaap

karma_ wrote: »

An expensive lesson all right, but maybe you should be directing your rage at Widgery for flat out lying the first time around. The truth then would have avoided this.

Also, just grasp the nettle and admit that there is a marked difference in the Army killing innocent people(then lying to cover it up)and terrorists killing innocent people, it really ain't that hard to make that differentiation.

Read my previous posts my friend about the run up to Bloody Sunday...soldiers being killed all over Northern Ireland...RUC officers being murdered 3 days before in Londonderry.
THE IRA and Sinn Fein use the term "war" to describe the conflict in Northern Ireland...in a war we usually have two armies...in this case the Irish Republican Army...and the British Army...do you agree???
At least the army that represents me have accountability...and have apologised...one of the leaders of the other army won't even admit he had a machine gun in his hand on Bloody Sunday!!!
At least Gerry Adams agreed with the BBC Newsnight reporter than all deaths in the troubles should be investigated...including those by the IRA...and they should lead to prosecutions!!! Although Gerry wasn't in the IRA, so he'd be getting off scott free!!

Livvie

Surely the guilt of the IRA, UVF and whoever else, whilst not to be under-estimated, is irrelevant in this thread?

This is about the unjustifiable killing of innocent civilians in Derry on a specific day in time, the subsequent apology from the British Government, and the vindication of the victims.

There doubtless are many other incidents that can be used in comparison, but they shouldn't detract from this one.

karma_

Jaap wrote: »

Read my previous posts my friend about the run up to Bloody Sunday...soldiers being killed all over Northern Ireland...RUC officers being murdered 3 days before in Londonderry.
THE IRA and Sinn Fein use the term "war" to describe the conflict in Northern Ireland...in a war we usually have two armies...in this case the Irish Republican Army...and the British Army...do you agree???
At least the army that represents me have accountability...and have apologised...one of the leaders of the other army won't even admit he had a machine gun in his hand on Bloody Sunday!!!
At least Gerry Adams agreed with the BBC Newsnight reporter than all deaths in the troubles should be investigated...including those by the IRA...and they should lead to prosecutions!!! Although Gerry wasn't in the IRA, so he'd be getting off scott free!!

The British government, the Irish government and the military regarded the IRA as a terrorist organisation and not an army, for the express reason it would have legitimised them. In this day and age it should not have to be pointed out to anyone the difference between the IRA, a guerilla organisation and a state sponsored military. I put it to you that you are being deliberately obtuse.

Bloody Sunday has nowt to do with the IRA, or republicans to be honest, it's about those who were killed and then accused of wrong doing, and it's about the people of Derry.

Nodin

Jaap wrote: »

Read my previous posts my friend about the run up to Bloody Sunday...soldiers being (...........)to prosecutions!!! Although Gerry wasn't in the IRA, so he'd be getting off scott free!!

So now its "But Gerry and Marty...."

monosharp

As someone who grew up in a pro-Republican area (south) but to un-republican parents, I went from being a nieve young lad singing rebel songs with the best of them to actually learning a bit of cope on.

Thankfully the victims names have been cleared, too late and too long, but I hope that no one is nieve enough to think that all British soldiers in the North during the troubles were like these few individuals in the Paras.

Up North and down South, Irish people have a very black and white way of looking at things. Unionists and Republicans up North especially.

Most of the British soldiers stationed in the North were young lads doing a job, keeping the peace in a place with two opposing cultures, both so alien to them they might as well have been peacekeeping in Gaza. How many lives, Irish lives, were saved by their presence ?

So after 40 years can we all grow up and move along like adults or will we continue to play the childish games that the Israeli's and Palestinians seem so intent on continuing. Can we please not use this as a political football to score some points.

Shea O'Meara

Zambia232 wrote: »

So you cannot give the name of the person.

Wilford only ordered his men into the bogside. There is no evidence he ordered them to shoot unarmed civilians.

"The officer who gave the order for the paras to deploy, the late Colonel Derek Wilford, either misunderstood or exceeded an order to him to permit limited engagement. His order, and the deadly fire of some of the paras, produced a massacre."

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b0facd80-78b6-11df-a312-00144feabdc0.html

Now you can argue 'engage' in military terms means 'have a cup of tea with', if you like.

Zambia232 wrote: »

The facts are shocking enough they don't need further salt.

I believe you and your Pal Fred are the ones trying to detract and sour from the thread and the report.

Zambia232 wrote: »

Yesterday was a very good day for both the UK and Ireland I am indeed happy.

Agreed.

Fratton Fred

walshb wrote: »

how do you know what Martin intended that day? For the record, it would be a massive risk for any Irish person to go around carrying a weapon in the North Of Ireland. I don't believe it was proved that Martin had any weapon in his possession.

If he did he would have been asking to get shot. The British would relish the chance to gun down any Irish person with a weapon, and in this case, without a ****ing weapon.

Last Paragraph.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/15/bloody-sunday-inquiry-key-findings


fwiw, my thoughts on the cost of the enquiry are pretty simple. The UK tax payer has forked out tens of billions to bail out a bunch of crooks and chancers in the city, the £200m to give closure on this incident is insignificant tbh. This had to be done.

Wolfe Tone

Quite pathetic, some posts on here. Seems to be a blanket refusal from some posters to see that the BA massacred these people without adding a unwarranted "but" onto it. No matter what preceded the events of that day it doesn't in any way justify it. I hear time and time again that the BA are one of the most professional and well trained forces in the world. Well in this instance, like on multiple occasions in the past, they quite clearly lost the run of themselves. For such a supposably crack force there is NO justification for that. None whatsoever.The blame and responsibility lies 100% on the BA.

McGuinnesses presence there whether he had a tommy gun or not is irrelevant. The fact is he did nothing.

Run_to_da_hills

I can remember Bloody Sunday well, I was only 11 at the time. Had I been any older I would have been at that March that led to the burning of the British Embassy. We had our own little protest at home by burning all our Airfix British Soldiers and tanks etc.

In Dalkey National school, there was a very strong republican feeling at the time, our teacher read the full account of the day from the Irish Times to the class, We were thought Amhran Na Bfiann and some of the new release rebel songs such as "The Men Behind the Wire".

I was caught daubing "Up the IRA" on a neighbours wall a few days later, it got back to my old man and got a good hiding.

I would put this formal apology from the UK Government as one of the highlights of the peace process.

dlofnep

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I would put this formal apology from the UK Government as one of the highlights of the peace process.

Spot on.

Fratton Fred

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

In Dalkey National school, there was a very strong republican feeling

Now there's a turn up for the books.:D

drakshug

Most of us from the UK knew that the paras shot innocent people. We didn't need an enquiry for that. David Cameron has apologised for all of us. It was a disgrace what happened.

Are the various other factions in the troubles going to be subject to enquiries relating to civilian deaths or is it only Republican deaths that are worthy. Napalming pubs. Kidnappings, canary wharf etc etc.
Just wondering if it is going to be balanced.

Run_to_da_hills

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Now there's a turn up for the books.:D

Dalkey in 1972 was a far cry from the Dalkey of today. The Average price of a council cottage would have been around £700 to £1000 and most of the town would have been renting them from the council as they could not afford. Most in my class would have come from "Working Class" backgrounds which would have had quite a strong republican support among them.

Bottle_of_Smoke

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Quite pathetic, some posts on here. Seems to be a blanket refusal from some posters to see that the BA massacred these people without adding a unwarranted "but" onto it. No matter what preceded the events of that day it doesn't in any way justify it. I hear time and time again that the BA are one of the most professional and well trained forces in the world. Well in this instance, like on multiple occasions in the past, they quite clearly lost the run of themselves. For such a supposably crack force there is NO justification for that. None whatsoever.The blame and responsibility lies 100% on the BA.

McGuinnesses presence there whether he had a tommy gun or not is irrelevant. The fact is he did nothing.

I think it stems from people discussing Bloody Sunday in the context of the troubles and the IRA.

ie 'the IRA committed atrocities but what do you expect given the actions of the BA at Bloody Sunday' etc. Now that the British government have admitted the massacre was unjustifiable Unionists probably fear the IRA campaign will be seen in a more sympathetic manner.

I had a read through the pulseresources.org forum thread, whilst there may be some pathetic posts here the stuff they're saying over there would make you sick.

KeithAFC

Mcguiness is not innocent. He played a huge part in the troubles.

I feel sorry for the people who got killed. That was terrible.

But lets not forget.

Zambia

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

"The officer who gave the order for the paras to deploy, the late Colonel Derek Wilford, either misunderstood or exceeded an order to him to permit limited engagement. His order, and the deadly fire of some of the paras, produced a massacre."

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b0facd80-78b6-11df-a312-00144feabdc0.html

Now you can argue 'engage' in military terms means 'have a cup of tea with', if you like.

The report states he let his men chase the rioters. When his orders were to hold his men back. While Wilfords actions are very arrogant there is no evidence to believe he intended for his men to shoot down people in cold blood. There is no record in the report of an order of that nature.

So if you are saying that Colonel Wilford ordered his men to shoot unarmed Civilians, there is no evidence in this report or any others to support it. Engage does not mean murder especially in a crowd control scenario.

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

I believe you and your Pal Fred are the ones trying to detract and sour from the thread and the report.

You said That the mens officers ordered them to gun down unarmed civilians. I simply asked you to back up your statement by telling me the officer who ordered it. If there was evidence Wilford or any officer gave such an order there would be no case for the 5 soldiers to answer.

As there is a case for the 5 soldier's to answer then the evidence indicates no order was given. They may have the impression they had a green light to shoot people but they did not.

dlofnep

KeithAFC wrote: »

Mcguiness is not innocent. He played a huge part in the troubles.

I feel sorry for the people who got killed. That was terrible.

But lets not forget.

Could you show an ounce of humanity, and at least be respectful instead of posting inappropriate and completely off-topic images?

drakshug

Yeah.

The time for those images are long gone.

The only thing, as someone with no links to Ireland or any of the politics, is that there is going to be a backlash soon. The paras were out of control but it is being used to gain political points and, in some sectors, being used for anti Brit rhetoric.
As I've said before, we knew the civil rights marchers were murdered. At last their families can get some closure if that is any recompense.
However, listening and reading the media it seems that this is a closing chapter. It isn't. There are a lot more closures to be made. If there are insistences on court cases, then it has to be made on both sides.
Anyone who has killed a civilian should be brought to justice.

A Dub in Glasgo

drakshug wrote: »

Most of us from the UK knew that the paras shot innocent people. We didn't need an enquiry for that. David Cameron has apologised for all of us. It was a disgrace what happened.

I have spoken to loads today who had no idea that their soldiers killed so many innocent civilians in NI

Are the various other factions in the troubles going to be subject to enquiries relating to civilian deaths or is it only Republican deaths that are worthy. Napalming pubs. Kidnappings, canary wharf etc etc.
Just wondering if it is going to be balanced.

Probably not as they will be subject to the rule of law even if they were convicted and released early. Huge difference to a state committing a massacre and covering it up for 38 years with no prosecutions.

KeithAFC

dlofnep wrote: »

Could you show an ounce of humanity, and at least be respectful instead of posting inappropriate and completely off-topic images?

Omagh, Banbridge, we will never forget. No Surrender.

dlofnep

KeithAFC wrote: »

Omagh, Banbridge, we will never forget. No Surrender.

And we will never forget either. Omagh was a terrible attack on civilian life.

You need to drop this "no surrender" rhetoric. It doesn't serve you well.

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

Omagh, Banbridge, we will never forget. No Surrender.

Disgusting. You wont even acknowledge that these INNOCENT men were murdered?