Bloody Sunday killings to be ruled unlawful

KELTICKNIGHTT · 15-06-2010 6:39pm

have read the summary report and will take some time too read the full report,alot too take in,i DONT share views by some here,but will say that the familes have found what they have being waiting for so long and the loved ones can rest in peace,,some facts probly will shock me,so details already have.will remain too be seem weather any soldiers will face court will remain too be seem,
Congratulations for the families and well done to Lord Saville and the other judges and all involved

sceptre · 15-06-2010 7:04pm

I've deleted about 20 posts. They've been collectively labelled "Assorted posts deleted: mainly ****stirring, personalisation, idiocy and making the universe worth less" in the deletion log.

Many of these posts have been personalising the discussion and insulting other forum members. Such posts have been issued with yellow or red cards.

There are still strong views on this topic from at least two sides (and probably not just two). Regardless of your own strong views, insulting fellow forum members, personalising the discussion, accusations of trolling, being a clever little comedy monkey who probably is trolling etc are still prohibited by the forum charter. You might not like the other guy in this discussion or any other but you still don't get to insult the other guy because he/she has views that are "wrong" or opposite to yours. The forum charter still applies as always. If you've not read it (and it's apparent that some of you haven't), I strongly advise reading it before typing an insulting post at your fellow forum members that will get you issued with a formal reminder or a local ban. Your call, the charter exists and is an easy read.

/mod

If none of the above applies to you, just carry on. If it does, please carry on more carefully.

Wolfe Tone · 15-06-2010 7:20pm

I think that a very important step has been taken here today. The next step is legal action and prosecutions. I think the soldiers themselves should be named and shamed.

sceptre · 15-06-2010 7:26pm

dclane wrote: »

The report means nothing and nothing should come from it.

Er, no.

The report means quite a lot to the people involved (yes, on both sides - even more than two sides considering the political situation at the time). It means a lot to the notion of accountability. And it means a lot to actual accountability. It should have been done years ago, though I'm rather glad it was done in the current climate - carried out in the mid-70s it would been far more likely to be a whitewash.

Justice may take some time and in this case it clearly has. But justice gets there and in this case it clearly has.

You can blame whoever you want for the climate at the time and the actions that led to people being out on the streets on that day. But the conclusions of the report are precise, considered, clear and just. You obviously don't like the conclusions and you've got a right to hold that view. But unless there's something significant and relevant you've got to add that changes (or should change) the conclusions of the report, something isn't wrong or meaningless merely because you don't like it. That's the difference between opinion and fact, a difference everyone would do well to consider and remember.

Unless you've got something significant and relevant to add that changes (or should change) the conclusions of the report, I have nothing to add on my view of your view.

Wolfe Tone · 15-06-2010 7:30pm

sceptre wrote: »

Er, no.

carried out in the mid-70s it would been far more likely to be a whitewash.

Aka the Widgery report.

sceptre · 15-06-2010 7:35pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Aka the Widgery report.

I forgot about that one:o (don't ask how, just keep walking...). Point well made.

Nodin · 15-06-2010 7:43pm

dclane wrote: »

I am as Irish as they come my friend, collateral damage happens during a war and can you honestly say that the soldiers were wrong to return fire when fired upon?

The innocent killings were caused the actions of the IRA and it is the IRA who should apologise to the families of the dead. The English followed orders and did things by the book. The report means nothing and nothing should come from it.

They weren't fired on - they started the firing. Why do you keep saying they were?

Jaap · 15-06-2010 8:37pm

danbohan wrote: »

read the report , they were not fired on , it was premeditated cold bloodied murder something the British army very good at .

I think you will find (if you look hard enough) that in the report it says that events on Bloody Sunday were not premeditated!!!

I think the Irish Republican Army were the ones in Northern Ireland who carried out the most premeditated murders...do you want the stats on that to back up my statement???

Jaap · 15-06-2010 8:51pm

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Really disappointed with the reactions from Unionists and some on here. It's a really simple issue. Soldiers massacred innocent civilians who were protesting genuine inequality in society. Anybody muddying the waters, throwing in the PIRA and IRA into statements on today are doing the same things that caused there to be a need for an inquiry in the first place. It's a disgrace. Unionists never, ever learn. They would keel over and die if they were to be any way gracious. It has nothing to do with the IRA.

The IRA killed 7 soldiers in Londonderry in the 6 months prior to Bloody Sunday...they killed 2 RUC officers in Londonderry 3 days prior to Bloody Sunday...this would have seriously effected how the British Army may have been feeling on Bloody Sunday...tense, maybe panicky, ready to engage...and are you telling me that Martin McGuiness, who from this Saville report was supposedly armed with a sub-machine gun, was out to have a peaceful protest!!! THe IRA did fire shots on the day...I'm sure they are devastated they didn't kill any soldiers!!!
The IRA always have had a part to play in the troubles in Northern Ireland...in fact they played the biggest part!!! They murdered the most amount of people...705 soldiers died...I'm sure 95% of them were killed by the provisionals!!
Good that the families today got their apology...but is Martin McGuiness and all his IRA/Sinn Fein colleagues gonna say sorry to the 7 soldiers and 2 RUC men mentioned above who died in Mr McGuiness' IRA region around the Bloody Sunday time??? Somehow I don't think so!!!

caseyann · 15-06-2010 8:55pm

Jaap wrote: »

The IRA killed 7 soldiers in Londonderry in the 6 months prior to Bloody Sunday...they killed 2 RUC officers in Londonderry 3 days prior to Bloody Sunday...this would have seriously effected how the British Army may have been feeling on Bloody Sunday...tense, maybe panicky, ready to engage...and are you telling me that Martin McGuiness, who from this Saville report was supposedly armed with a sub-machine gun, was out to have a peaceful protest!!! THe IRA did fire shots on the day...I'm sure they are devastated they didn't kill any soldiers!!!
The IRA always have had a part to play in the troubles in Northern Ireland...in fact they played the biggest part!!! They murdered the most amount of people...705 soldiers died...I'm sure 95% of them were killed by the provisionals!!
Good that the families today got their apology...but is Martin McGuiness and all his IRA/Sinn Fein colleagues gonna say sorry to the 7 soldiers and 2 RUC men mentioned above who died in Mr McGuiness' IRA region around the Bloody Sunday time??? Somehow I don't think so!!!

So that justifies murder of 14 people who were unarmed by those who are under orders and there to keep the streets safe?????? One of whom was shot while carrying a white flag to aide someone injured????

Nodin · 15-06-2010 8:57pm

Jaap wrote: »

I think you will find (if you look hard enough) that in the report it says that events (.....)ement???

So despite the British inquiry blaming the British, you're trying to blame somebody else.....

fontanalis · 15-06-2010 8:59pm

Jaap wrote: »

I think you will find (if you look hard enough) that in the report it says that events on Bloody Sunday were not premeditated!!!

I think the Irish Republican Army were the ones in Northern Ireland who carried out the most premeditated murders...do you want the stats on that to back up my statement???

Are you equating a paramilitary organisation with the standing army of a supposed civilised country? Are you calling the British Army terrorists?

caseyann · 15-06-2010 9:02pm

fontanalis wrote: »

Are you equating a paramilitary organisation with the standing army of a supposed civilised country? Are you calling the British Army terrorists?

They forgot the loyalist among them also.
There is three or four more or less new users with very few posts;) and they seem to be thanking eachother,amd trying to lay blame and accusations on Irish innocents doors and keep bringing IRA into it.

Jaap · 15-06-2010 9:15pm

caseyann wrote: »

So that justifies murder of 14 people who were unarmed by those who are under orders and there to keep the streets safe?????? One of whom was shot while carrying a white flag to aide someone injured????

There is no justification of any murder during the troubles...but people have to understand what was going on in Northern Ireland at that time...the tension, killings, unrest.
These soldiers probably didn't have any prior experience to this sort of goings-on that was happening in Northern Ireland...many of their colleagues were being shot dead by the IRA in Londonderry and other parts of Northern Ireland...I think if I was in their situation I would be on my guard constantly whilst out on patrol...particularly in Londonderry where there were no-go areas for the army and police!!!
Do you think there should be some form of enquiry in to the 9 deaths I mentioned of army and RUC personnel in the 6 months leading up to Bloody Sunday??? I'm sure Martin McGuiness knows a lot about them!!

caseyann · 15-06-2010 9:17pm

Jaap wrote: »

There is no justification of any murder during the troubles...but people have to understand what was going on in Northern Ireland at that time...the tension, killings, unrest.
These soldiers probably didn't have any prior experience to this sort of goings-on that was happening in Northern Ireland...many of their colleagues were being shot dead by the IRA in Londonderry and other parts of Northern Ireland...I think if I was in their situation I would be on my guard constantly whilst out on patrol...particularly in Londonderry where there were no-go areas for the army and police!!!
Do you think there should be some form of enquiry in to the 9 deaths I mentioned of army and RUC personnel in the 6 months leading up to Bloody Sunday??? I'm sure Martin McGuiness knows a lot about them!!

And this is not what the thread is about.But you insist on trying to make excuses and white wash it.
So in your thought area.Irish should have been out killing all Brits because they had seen them kill their families and friends for decades before?
Like for like.

They are in a job and knew what they were going into,they know who shot them the IRA no i dont think a inquiry should be into that,then there should be one into the loyalists also.

Jaap · 15-06-2010 9:20pm

Nodin wrote: »

So despite the British inquiry blaming the British, you're trying to blame somebody else.....

I am just saying that the Saville enquiry says the events on Bloody Sunday were not premeditated...if you don't know what the word "premeditated" means it is kind of planning to do something...maybe a few days in advance!!!
The British have held their hands up, admitted responsibility...fair play to them, they apologised...but don't you think IRA victims killed in Londonderry just prior to Bloody Sunday, they deserve an apology directed at their families and some form of a report on how or why they died from Martin McGuiness and the Londonderry area IRA???

Jaap · 15-06-2010 9:23pm

caseyann wrote: »

And this is not what the thread is about.But you insist on trying to make excuses and white wash it.
So in your thought area.Irish should have been out killing all Brits because they had seen them kill their families and friends for decades before?
Like for like.

They are in a job and knew what they were going into,they know who shot them the IRA no i dont think a inquiry should be into that,then there should be one into the loyalists also.

I am in to any enquiry in to all murders...loyalist or republican or state murders!!! I value all life in Northern Ireland...protestant and catholic!!!
Obviously you value republican lives more than you do of British lives if you dont think there should be an enquiry in to IRA murders in Londonderry around the time of Bloody Sunday!!!

Jaap · 15-06-2010 9:28pm

fontanalis wrote: »

Are you equating a paramilitary organisation with the standing army of a supposed civilised country? Are you calling the British Army terrorists?

No...not at all!!! The British Amy is one of the best in the world...many of them sacrificed their lives in Northern Ireland to keep the peace.
But we all know how the IRA liked to justify their terror by calling it a war!!! They obviously see themselves as an army too...hence the name!!

Jaap · 15-06-2010 9:33pm

caseyann wrote: »

They forgot the loyalist among them also.
There is three or four more or less new users with very few posts;) and they seem to be thanking eachother,amd trying to lay blame and accusations on Irish innocents doors and keep bringing IRA into it.

I think some people on this forum need to take off their green tinted glasses and realise that in Northern Ireland both sides were to blame.
You can't have solely enquiries in to events that only affect one side of the community!!! Come on...more balance!!!

Wolfe Tone · 15-06-2010 9:43pm

I have read and heard the phrases "unjustified and unjustifiable" along with "you cannot defend the indefensible" today.

Perhaps some here should take that to heart.

Livvie · 15-06-2010 9:52pm

dclane wrote: »

I am as Irish as they come my friend, collateral damage happens during a war and can you honestly say that the soldiers were wrong to return fire when fired upon?

The innocent killings were caused the actions of the IRA and it is the IRA who should apologise to the families of the dead. The English followed orders and did things by the book. The report means nothing and nothing should come from it.

The soldiers fired first. That's been established surely? It's also been established that some of them lied.

I'm sure the vast majority of any armed forces are decent people, but as proven in Iraq and Afghanistan, there are some who are loose cannons, and what I've heard today indicates that at least some of the soldiers responsible were at the very least behaving in a very undisciplined way - not what you expect from a trained soldier.

BroomBurner · 15-06-2010 9:53pm

Jaap wrote: »

I think some people on this forum need to take off their green tinted glasses and realise that in Northern Ireland both sides were to blame.
You can't have solely enquiries in to events that only affect one side of the community!!! Come on...more balance!!!

Jaap, reading your last few comments, you are a clear voice of reason.

I also disagree with violence and murder of any kind, no matter who causes it. I really hope today's publication and PM speech will go some way to help the families of the victims of Bloody Sunday. It was a long time coming, and put the 1973 inquiry to shame.

The only thing is that there can never be an inquiry in to the terrorist groups acting in Nothern Ireland, as they are not officially representing a government of any country. Unfortunately, the wives/husbands and children of murdered RUC and British Army men and women will never received an apology for what they have suffered. Just like the families of civilians murdered by unionist terrorist groups will also never received an acknowledgement of wrong-doing.

caseyann · 15-06-2010 9:53pm

Jaap wrote: »

I am in to any enquiry in to all murders...loyalist or republican or state murders!!! I value all life in Northern Ireland...protestant and catholic!!!
Obviously you value republican lives more than you do of British lives if you dont think there should be an enquiry in to IRA murders in Londonderry around the time of Bloody Sunday!!!

Jaap wrote: »

I think some people on this forum need to take off their green tinted glasses and realise that in Northern Ireland both sides were to blame.
You can't have solely enquiries in to events that only affect one side of the community!!! Come on...more balance!!!

Where in any of my posts did i say i agree with murder of any innocent civilian Of any religion or nationality?
If you would like to re read what i said was.If enquiry into those killings then lets go into all of them from begining! If you want like for like!

Livvie · 15-06-2010 9:53pm

Jaap wrote: »

I am in to any enquiry in to all murders...loyalist or republican or state murders!!! I value all life in Northern Ireland...protestant and catholic!!!
Obviously you value republican lives more than you do of British lives if you dont think there should be an enquiry in to IRA murders in Londonderry around the time of Bloody Sunday!!!

Surely the difference is that the IRA weren't acting with the backing of the Irish Government?

gsxr1 · 15-06-2010 10:04pm

Did you listen to Gregory Campbell today.

He is and has always been the most biggited loyalist yet in Irish politics.

He just cant keep his catholic hating mouth shut. As long as I remember him from life in Derry.

He really hates the fact that the truth came out.

Who votes muppets like that in??

gsxr1 · 15-06-2010 10:07pm

the report:

for those with a few weeks to read it all

http://report.bloody-sunday-inquiry.org/

Jaap · 15-06-2010 10:09pm

Livvie wrote: »

Surely the difference is that the IRA weren't acting with the backing of the Irish Government?

The individual soldiers who killed the innocent civilians on Bloody Sunday I'm sure were not told just to go out and shoot randomly by the British Government...the Saville Report backs that case up!!! BUT the British Government is responsible for the actions of their soldiers...hence David Cameron made his statement today!!!
We will never know if the IRA had the backing of the Irish Government in their killings of the 9 individuals I have mentioned in previous posts...as there will probably not even be £200 spent on an enquiry never mind 200 million!!! The IRA don't do public enquiries unfortunately...despite being in Northern Ireland's government!!!

Nodin · 15-06-2010 10:13pm

Jaap wrote: »

Do you think there should be some form of enquiry in to the 9 deaths I mentioned of army and RUC personnel in the 6 months leading up to Bloody Sunday??? I'm sure Martin McGuiness knows a lot about them!!

Jaap wrote: »

The British have held their hands up, admitted responsibility...fair play to them, they apologised...but don't you think IRA victims killed in Londonderry just prior to Bloody Sunday, they deserve an apology directed at their families and some form of a report on how or why they died from Martin McGuiness and the Londonderry area IRA??? !!

You are yet again trying to shift the focus from the report and its conclusions by muddying the waters.

Jaap wrote: »

You can't have solely enquiries in to events that only affect one side of the community!!! Come on...more balance!!!

I do believe that would be an excellent topic for another thread.

Livvie · 15-06-2010 10:13pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm npt sure how well that would go down in the UK to be honest. As Nodin says, sauce for the goose.

It would go down well with me.

Unlawful killing means murder. End of.

Since when should murderers not get punished.

Nodin · 15-06-2010 10:14pm

gsxr1 wrote: »

Did you listen to Gregory Campbell today.

He is and has always been the most biggited loyalist yet in Irish politics.

I'll see and raise you with Willie McCrea.

Bloody Sunday killings to be ruled unlawful

Comments