Bloody Sunday killings to be ruled unlawful

gent9662

sceptre wrote: »

Er, no.

The report means quite a lot to the people involved (yes, on both sides - even more than two sides considering the political situation at the time). It means a lot to the notion of accountability. And it means a lot to actual accountability. It should have been done years ago, though I'm rather glad it was done in the current climate - carried out in the mid-70s it would been far more likely to be a whitewash.

Justice may take some time and in this case it clearly has. But justice gets there and in this case it clearly has.

You can blame whoever you want for the climate at the time and the actions that led to people being out on the streets on that day. But the conclusions of the report are precise, considered, clear and just. You obviously don't like the conclusions and you've got a right to hold that view. But unless there's something significant and relevant you've got to add that changes (or should change) the conclusions of the report, something isn't wrong or meaningless merely because you don't like it. That's the difference between opinion and fact, a difference everyone would do well to consider and remember.

Unless you've got something significant and relevant to add that changes (or should change) the conclusions of the report, I have nothing to add on my view of your view.

Thank you, that's a very fair comment, and thank you for acting in a very arbitrary manner.

Wolfe Tone

gsxr1 wrote: »

the report:


for those with a few weeks to read it all

http://report.bloody-sunday-inquiry.org/

Ahh, about a millenniums worth of bedtime reading!

gsxr1

Jaap wrote: »

The individual soldiers who killed the innocent civilians on Bloody Sunday I'm sure were not told just to go out and shoot randomly by the British Government...the Saville Report backs that case up!!! BUT the British Government is responsible for the actions of their soldiers...hence David Cameron made his statement today!!!
We will never know if the IRA had the backing of the Irish Government in their killings of the 9 individuals I have mentioned in previous posts...as there will probably not even be £200 spent on an enquiry never mind 200 million!!! The IRA don't do public enquiries unfortunately...despite being in Northern Ireland's government!!!

Maybe they were not told.
But it is the british government sent the elite killing machine which is the paratroopers. These guys shoot first and think later. This was well known at the time . This particular regiment where and still are a very dangerous killing machine. sent in to stop a civil rights march??? sent in with a readiness to fight their fellow British citizens
They where also sent in with high power guns and where targeting their attention on rioters they Described as Hoilgans.

This was their igcuse to get there own back on paddy (as they put it) I believe.
Look at the damage they did to Ireland. How many others died after taking up arms against them. How many of their own comrades where blown to bits as a back lash to their foolishness

If i was not a baby at the time. I would have probably joined the IRA as a result of "their" actions that day. Why would I not. It would have been in self defense of my community.

KELTICKNIGHTT

Jaap wrote: »

The individual soldiers who killed the innocent civilians on Bloody Sunday I'm sure were not told just to go out and shoot randomly by the British Government...the Saville Report backs that case up!!! BUT the British Government is responsible for the actions of their soldiers...hence David Cameron made his statement today!!!
We will never know if the IRA had the backing of the Irish Government in their killings of the 9 individuals I have mentioned in previous posts...as there will probably not even be £200 spent on an enquiry never mind 200 million!!! The IRA don't do public enquiries unfortunately...despite being in Northern Ireland's government!!!

the brisish soldiers did murder as show in report ,the report about bloody sunday,dont think the loyisists will aploygise for what they ddi no more that republicians,i sure we all can recall facts that can paint all sides with blood on there hands ,but today about 13 people who didnt carry guns and shoot at soldiers ,some spldiers panic,so just shoot at anyone .weather you like it or not,shows bad on british at that time as they didnt have control of there soldiers period

Livvie

It's very sad (understatement) that if the British Government at the time had had the foresight to clamp down on the bigotry and discrimination, then maybe the IRA wouldn't have been able to feed off the dissatisfaction of the Catholic population in N.I. and thousands of people might not have died.

I know that's a simplistic view and the aims for a united Ireland wouldn't just have disappeared, but Britain did make it easier for the IRA.

rightwingdub

gsxr1 wrote: »

Did you listen to Gregory Campbell today.

He is and has always been the most biggited loyalist yet in Irish politics.

He just cant keep his catholic hating mouth shut. As long as I remember him from life in Derry.


He really hates the fact that the truth came out.

Who votes muppets like that in??

Bigots vote muppets like Gregory Campbell into power.

slimjimmc

Livvie wrote: »

It would go down well with me.

Unlawful killing means murder. End of.

Since when should murderers not get punished.

Not really.
Manslaughter is unlawful killing, so is causing death by dangerous driving but neither are murder. The enquiry did not find any evidence of pre-meditation which by definition is a pre-requisite for murder. However those who caused the illegal deaths should indeed be prosecuted for their part.

Jaap

Livvie wrote: »

Since when should murderers not get punished.

Whenever you enter the realms of Northern Ireland this happens!!! In that wee country they open up the gates of jails to mass murders and people who are filled with sectarian hatred...hatred that will never leave their evil bodies!!! :mad:
Scum walking the streets as we type!!!
On that note...night night to you all...I am out of this thread as well!!!
Great development today...the truth got out...but I think other victims in Northern Ireland need to know the truth from paramilitaries and other agencies!!! Martin McGuiness are you reading this???

A Dub in Glasgo

slimjimmc wrote: »

Not really.
Manslaughter is unlawful killing, so is causing death by dangerous driving but neither are murder. The enquiry did not find any evidence of pre-meditation which by definition is a pre-requisite for murder. However those who caused the illegal deaths should indeed be prosecuted for their part.

I wonder what part of shooting somebody in the head whilst that person is helping somebody else who was shot is not pre-meditation?

Help me here

sink

Livvie wrote: »

It's very sad (understatement) that if the British Government at the time had had the foresight to clamp down on the bigotry and discrimination, then maybe the IRA wouldn't have been able to feed off the dissatisfaction of the Catholic population in N.I. and thousands of people might not have died.

I know that's a simplistic view and the aims for a united Ireland wouldn't just have disappeared, but Britain did make it easier for the IRA.

Since we're on the topic of ideal historical hypotheses. It's sad that the British government didn't have the foresight in the 17th century at the signing of the penal laws, that to disenfranchise the majority ethnic group on the island of Ireland would lead to resentment, bitterness and eventual rebellion, revolution and independence. Ideally Catholics should have been treated as equal partners from the beginning and the UK could have been considered a contiguous harmonious united nation. Instead they allowed religious, racial and sectarian bigotry to rule.

A Dub in Glasgo

Jaap wrote: »

Whenever you enter the realms of Northern Ireland this happens!!! In that wee country they open up the gates of jails to mass murders and people who are filled with sectarian hatred...hatred that will never leave their evil bodies!!! :mad:
Scum walking the streets as we type!!!

The elephant in the room which you manage to ignore is conviction. Those that were released early were convicted of a crime. Those that did Bloody Sunday were not convicted of a crime bur some of them were even promoted! Bit of a difference, don't you think?

Nodin

Jaap wrote: »

Whenever you (.....)truth from paramilitaries and other agencies!!! Martin McGuiness are you reading this???

More attempts at shifting the goalposts?

Livvie

slimjimmc wrote: »

Not really.
Manslaughter is unlawful killing, so is causing death by dangerous driving but neither are murder. The enquiry did not find any evidence of pre-meditation which by definition is a pre-requisite for murder. However those who caused the illegal deaths should indeed be prosecuted for their part.

That's true, but shooting someone in the back isn't manslaughter - and even if it wasn't pre-meditated it showed a serious lack of discipline which doesn't go unpunished in civilian life.

Wouldn't it at least be counted as second degree murder?

gent9662

amacachi wrote: »

Go **** yourself, how's that? Has to be said tbh. They shot unarmed civilians, many of them in the back. Absolutely nothing to do with the IRA. The soldiers didn't return fire, they shot at people running away and people aiding others who had been injured. One of the victims was shot close-up in the back then shot as he lay injured on the ground, inexcusable.

The insult is childish tbh dude. As a matter of fact, How many unarmed people did the IRA execute in its 40 + years of murder? Women buried in umarked graves, fathers blown to bits, children (unborn) in Omagh murdered for no reason, mothers, granparents, sisters, uncles, aunts?

1972 was almost 40 years ago, but yet it still is a flagship event for all those who want vengence. I for one think that very bad events happened on both sides during the troubles, but things have moved on, as they have for the victims of the Dublin and Drogheda bombings (one of the victims was related to me!). Get over youself and realise that things move on that things that happen in war time should be forgotten.

The IRA fought a very strong propaganda war and they reaped their rewards by getting 13 innocent people killed by their actions.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Jaap wrote: »

There is no justification of any murder during the troubles...but people have to understand what was going on in Northern Ireland at that time...the tension, killings, unrest.
These soldiers probably didn't have any prior experience to this sort of goings-on that was happening in Northern Ireland...many of their colleagues were being shot dead by the IRA in Londonderry and other parts of Northern Ireland...I think if I was in their situation I would be on my guard constantly whilst out on patrol...particularly in Londonderry where there were no-go areas for the army and police!!!
Do you think there should be some form of enquiry in to the 9 deaths I mentioned of army and RUC personnel in the 6 months leading up to Bloody Sunday??? I'm sure Martin McGuiness knows a lot about them!!

Jaap that doesn't explain why they shot someone crawling along the ground in the back of the head. Why they shot a father tending to his son who'd already been shot.

I think perhaps the commotion and tension put them in revenge mode.

I think the main reason an inquiry was necessary was because the British government didn't apologise, covered it up with the Widgery report and sought to tarnish the name of innocent protesters by calling them terrorists.

Had they admitted the soldiers were out of order, not covered it up or have made ridiculous accusations the inquiry wouldn't have been necessary.

Take even say the Provos apology a few years back. Something along those lines would have sufficed.

Livvie

sink wrote: »

Since we're on the topic of ideal historical hypotheses. It's sad that the British government didn't have the foresight in the 17th century at the signing of the penal laws, that to disenfranchise the majority ethnic group on the island of Ireland would lead to resentment, bitterness and eventual rebellion, revolution and independence. Ideally Catholics should have been treated as equal partners from the beginning and the UK could have been considered a contiguous harmonious united nation. Instead they allowed religious, racial and sectarian bigotry to rule.

Well we could go back to the year dot, but in the 60s, I would have hoped that attitudes would have vastly changed from those in the 17th century, and human rights should have been of a lot more importance to the Government of the day.

slimjimmc

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I wonder what part of shooting somebody in the head whilst that person is helping somebody else who was shot is not pre-meditation?

Help me here

I'm not claiming it isn't. My post was simply to show that there's more to unlawful death than only murder. I wouldn't be surprised if there were instances of murder and manslaughter.

caseyann

dclane wrote: »

The insult is childish tbh dude. As a matter of fact, How many unarmed people did the IRA execute in its 40 + years of murder? Women buried in umarked graves, fathers blown to bits, children (unborn) in Omagh murdered for no reason, mothers, granparents, sisters, uncles, aunts?

1972 was almost 40 years ago, but yet it still is a flagship event for all those who want vengence. I for one think that very bad events happened on both sides during the troubles, but things have moved on, as they have for the victims of the Dublin and Drogheda bombings (one of the victims was related to me!). Get over youself and realise that things move on that things that happen in war time should be forgotten.

The IRA fought a very strong propaganda war and they reaped their rewards by getting 13 innocent people killed by their actions.

And again like for like,How many Irish people died at the hands of British rule and the British people stood back and let it happen.More or less like what they did in India and other such countries.They impoverished and murdered and enslaved Irish people for how long?
Lets go back way back and start counting our Irish dead if you want to play it like that.

PeterIanStaker

The reason this report came out nearly 40 years later is that most people associated with the event are either dead or retired. I wonder if Saville learned this delay tactic from the HSE or vice versa? Why not produce the next report twenty years from now, there'll be even less people around to contest it?

Ghandee

Jaap wrote: »

Whenever you enter the realms of Northern Ireland this happens!!! In that wee country they open up the gates of jails to mass murders and people who are filled with sectarian hatred...hatred that will never leave their evil bodies!!! :mad:
Scum walking the streets as we type!!!
On that note...night night to you all...I am out of this thread as well!!!
Great development today...the truth got out...but I think other victims in Northern Ireland need to know the truth from paramilitaries and other agencies!!! Martin McGuiness are you reading this???

Was their many at (Paisleys) church on Sunday?

Northernsoul

Little off point - but is anyone watching the bloody sunday spotlight special on bbc1 now?? Is it just me or is presenter mark carruthurs choice of rainbow multi-coloured tie COMPLETELY inappropiate??? It's REALLY buggin me! Grrrr

Zambia

I listened to David Cameron tonight and the summation by the BBC world service on the findings.

I think today is a very good day in the history of our island. I think the time for debate on this matter has ceased all that is left is reflection.

Livvie

caseyann wrote: »

And again like for like,How many Irish people died at the hands of British rule and the British people stood back and let it happen.More or less like what they did in India and other such countries.They impoverished and murdered and enslaved Irish people for how long?
Lets go back way back and start counting our Irish dead if you want to play it like that.

The British people are pretty powerless in such things though. Even a change of Government doesn't change the really big issues - I'm pretty sure most people here would want to withdraw from Afghanistan and Iraq, but we don't get a referendum on such things.

And I would bet money that during the troubles, the majority of people didn't have a clue about the history unless they looked it up for themselves. I'm not saying that ignorance is an excuse, but brainwashing exists in different forms.

gent9662

caseyann wrote: »

And again like for like,How many Irish people died at the hands of British rule and the British people stood back and let it happen.More or less like what they did in India and other such countries.They impoverished and murdered and enslaved Irish people for how long?
Lets go back way back and start counting our Irish dead if you want to play it like that.

How many Jews did the Nazis murder? Or how many Vietnamese did the Americans kill, or how many Japanese for that matter? Why do they forgive and forget?

yet you want to persist with this anti english theme, as I said, I lost a relative to the troubles, I think that gives me more of a mandate to state my opinions.

If you want to quote history you will realise that every nation in europe fought against each other and bad things happened but how far back are you going to go? 400 yrs of oppression and tyranny!! yawn! heard it all before and dig the ballads! but step into the 2000's mate!

A Dub in Glasgo

Livvie wrote: »

The British people are pretty powerless in such things though. Even a change of Government doesn't change the really big issues - I'm pretty sure most people here would want to withdraw from Afghanistan and Iraq, but we don't get a referendum on such things.

And I would bet money that during the troubles, the majority of people didn't have a clue about the history unless they looked it up for themselves. I'm not saying that ignorance is an excuse, but brainwashing exists in different forms.

The British people, in general, are totally and utterly ignorant of what has been done in their name in Ireland. This should not excuse their ignorance though.

caseyann

Livvie wrote: »

The British people are pretty powerless in such things though. Even a change of Government doesn't change the really big issues - I'm pretty sure most people here would want to withdraw from Afghanistan and Iraq, but we don't get a referendum on such things.

And I would bet money that during the troubles, the majority of people didn't have a clue about the history unless they looked it up for themselves. I'm not saying that ignorance is an excuse, but brainwashing exists in different forms.

Sorry i meant the ones that lived here and the big wigs who lived off the back of Irish slaves.Not the normal everyday joes in England.No insult intended

Promac

dclane wrote: »

The insult is childish tbh dude. As a matter of fact, How many unarmed people did the IRA execute in its 40 + years of murder? Women buried in umarked graves, fathers blown to bits, children (unborn) in Omagh murdered for no reason, mothers, granparents, sisters, uncles, aunts?

1972 was almost 40 years ago, but yet it still is a flagship event for all those who want vengence. I for one think that very bad events happened on both sides during the troubles, but things have moved on, as they have for the victims of the Dublin and Drogheda bombings (one of the victims was related to me!). Get over youself and realise that things move on that things that happen in war time should be forgotten.

The IRA fought a very strong propaganda war and they reaped their rewards by getting 13 innocent people killed by their actions.

Bloody Sunday was no "flagship event" for vengeance - it was yet another attack on Irish civilians by official British forces - don't forget the Bloody Sunday in 1920 when the British killed 14 people watching a football match at Croke park.

You are trying to justify the actions of the British by saying that the IRA also killed people even when the British themselves are saying it is unjustifiable. It sounds like you are using the actions of the British on Bloody Sunday to find justification for your own dislike of the IRA and in doing so you insult everyone involved.

It's that kind of emotional, partial-truth rhetoric that inspires people to sign up for the paramilitary organisations you seem to hate in the first place.

dclane wrote:

I lost a relative to the troubles, I think that gives me more of a mandate to state my opinions.

To quote someone I don't agree with whatsoever, "Get over yourself, move on".

A Dub in Glasgo

dclane wrote: »

How many Jews did the Nazis murder? Or how many Vietnamese did the Americans kill, or how many Japanese for that matter? Why do they forgive and forget?

yet you want to persist with this anti english theme, as I said, I lost a relative to the troubles, I think that gives me more of a mandate to state my opinions.

If you want to quote history you will realise that every nation in europe fought against each other and bad things happened but how far back are you going to go? 400 yrs of oppression and tyranny!! yawn! heard it all before and dig the ballads! but step into the 2000's mate!

What is your point, exactly?

gandalf

Who is this unionist whackjob on Spotlight tonight, Gregory Campbell. Did anyone else just watch that disgusting inability to accept the Saville Report. He finished with a rant saying the IRA were state sponsored from the Southern Side of the border. With hatred and a twisted attitude like that is there any hope for reconciliation in Northern Ireland?

Livvie

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The British people, in general, are totally and utterly ignorant of what has been done in their name in Ireland. This should not excuse their ignorance though.

That's true. I hope that this verdict will make them more aware.

I actually know two people who are still too scared to travel to Ireland because they fear that as English, they might be attacked. And I would harbour a guess that a huge number of English people have never even realised that the IRA was not the Irish army. It's just really sad. And frustrating.