Bloody Sunday killings to be ruled unlawful

gsxr1

Nijmegen wrote: »

There's several things to bear in mind:

Firstly, the soldiers were under pressure and I could see them cracking, a bit... But what happened there was a complete loss of control and a well trained military unit should be designed specifically to prevent this, either on the battlefield or in any other circumstance.

Secondly, an officer in command is responsible for the conduct of the men under his command - even when they go off on one. It's his job to ensure that they don't, and he has failed when he has.

Thirdly, the "I was only following orders" line has been famously used and misused. There are circumstances where soldiers are put into impossible positions and it is relevant to their defence as a statement of their motives. But in this case, they were shooting injured people and those running away.

The Para's were a well trained military unit, they were cuter than that. They knew what they were about that day.

All this being said, I can see why the British might also want their apology, from the far side of the line.

All wars are dirty, but agree or disagree with their aims and methods, the Republicans have plenty to apoligize for out of that nasty war as do the British.

My uncle witnessed at close range one of the killings. The solder in question was by no means under pressure.

The victim was laying on the ground and the murderer casually strolled passed him, shot his riffle from the hip in passing . Killing the victim.

THE BRICK unit where worse than animals and so was there commanding officer. They should be stripped of there rank and medal and tried for murder . simple as that.
I know there are not many alive now, but they should still be stripped of their rank. They are a disgrace to the British armed service .

gsxr1

dclane wrote: »

I am as Irish as they come my friend, collateral damage happens during a war and can you honestly say that the soldiers were wrong to return fire when fired upon?

The innocent killings were caused the actions of the IRA and it is the IRA who should apologise to the families of the dead. The English followed orders and did things by the book. The report means nothing and nothing should come from it.

NOT that this has anything to do with bloody sunday. .


Just to be also clear. I would personally condemn any murders from any republican or loyalist army, including the british army

apologies in 02 from the IRA

from here.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1146769

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/2132113.stm


IRA statement in full
The following statement from the leadership of the IRA was received by An Phoblacht (Republican News) on Tuesday, 16 July:
Sunday 21 July marks the 30th anniversary of an IRA operation in Belfast in 1972 which resulted in nine people being killed and many more injured.

While it was not our intention to injure or kill non-combatants, the reality is that on this and on a number of other occasions, that was the consequence of our actions.

It is therefore appropriate on the anniversary of this tragic event, that we address all of the deaths and injuries of non-combatants caused by us.

We offer our sincere apologies and condolences to their families.

There have been fatalities amongst combatants on all sides.

We also acknowledge the grief and pain of their relatives.

The future will not be found in denying collective failures and mistakes or closing minds and hearts to the plight of those who have been hurt.

That includes all of the victims of the conflict, combatants and non-combatants.

It will not be achieved by creating a hierarchy of victims in which some are deemed more or less worthy than others.

The process of conflict resolution requires the equal acknowledgement of the grief and loss of others.

On this anniversary, we are endeavouring to fulfil this responsibility to those we have hurt.

The IRA is committed unequivocally to the search for freedom, justice and peace in Ireland.

We remain totally committed to the peace process and to dealing with the challenges and difficulties which this presents.

This includes the acceptance of past mistakes and of the hurt and pain we have caused to others.

Japer

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Yes, on RTE news last night. He says he wasn't and that he was photographed on the march and asked where he would have hid it

Perhaps he had it at some time other than when he was photographed ?
Did not Miriam O'Callaghan asked him about his actions ? Has he ever said if he was involved in the bombings + killings in the city prior to the march, which heightened tensions in the city? There was good and wrong done on both sides in those years. One wonders how the Irish army would have behaved in a riot situation, if half a dozen members of their army had been sniped at / killed in the 6 months before a march in Dublin ?
Yesterdays speech by the British prime minister was very healing. As someone else said, Northern Ireland needs to put its history to bed.

Nodin

Japer wrote: »

Perhaps(....) said, Northern Ireland needs to put its history to bed.

Another dose of "But Martin was...." for the road?

Fuhrer

Japer wrote: »

Yesterdays speech by the British prime minister was very healing. As someone else said, Northern Ireland needs to put its history to bed.

Jailing or at least putting on trial those soldiers would be a good way of putting it to bed.

OhNoYouDidn't

Japer wrote: »

Perhaps he had it at some time other than when he was photographed ?
Did not Miriam O'Callaghan asked him about his actions ? Has he ever said if he was involved in the bombings + killings in the city prior to the march, which heightened tensions in the city? There was good and wrong done on both sides in those years. One wonders how the Irish army would have behaved in a riot situation, if half a dozen members of their army had been sniped at / killed in the 6 months before a march in Dublin ?
Yesterdays speech by the British prime minister was very healing. As someone else said, Northern Ireland needs to put its history to bed.

And if my Auntie had balls she would be my Uncle.

This whataboutery is an assinine attempt to deflect away from the clear conclusions of a Lord who sits in the British supreme court. The Paras committed murder and there was no contextual justification for it whatsoever.

Japer

Would you advocate spending close on 200 million sterling ( which would fund a lot of cancer screening or other worthwhile work ) investigating all the other deaths which occured during the troubles, and " Jailing or at least putting on trial " those responsible ? I thought under the terms of the good friday agreement those in jail were let out, and the tone was one of forgiveness and moving forward ?
I would to add that I , like a previous poster wrote, would also "personally condemn any murders from any republican or loyalist army, including the british army"

Fuhrer

Japer wrote: »

Would you advocate spending close on 200 million sterling ( which would fund a lot of cancer screening or other worthwhile work ) investigating all the other deaths which occured during the troubles, and " Jailing or at least putting on trial " those responsible ? I thought under the terms of the good friday agreement those in jail were let out, and the tone was one of forgiveness and moving forward ?
I would to add that I , like a previous poster wrote, would also "personally condemn any murders from any republican or loyalist army, including the british army"

The republican groups and loyalists groups are terrorists.

You are really trying to say that the British Army has the same level of responsibility illegal terrorist organisations?

karma_

Japer wrote: »

Would you advocate spending close on 200 million sterling ( which would fund a lot of cancer screening or other worthwhile work ) investigating all the other deaths which occured during the troubles, and " Jailing or at least putting on trial " those responsible ? I thought under the terms of the good friday agreement those in jail were let out, and the tone was one of forgiveness and moving forward ?
I would to add that I , like a previous poster wrote, would also "personally condemn any murders from any republican or loyalist army, including the british army"

Most of those deaths were carried out by terrorists, not the forces of Law & Order.

None of this would have been necessary had Widgery been truthful in his whitewash.

Nodin

Japer wrote: »

Would you advocate spending close on 200 million sterling ( which would fund a lot of cancer screening or other worthwhile work ) investigating (............)and moving forward ?
I would to add that I , like a previous poster wrote, would also "personally condemn any murders from any republican or loyalist army, including the british army"

'Does NI need a truth commission'. Theres the thread title for ye and all.

Japer

Fuhrer wrote: »

The republican groups and loyalists groups are terrorists.

Some of those groups call themselves an "army" ; yes, I know terrorists is a better description for groups like the PIRA, UVF etc.

Fuhrer wrote: »

You are really trying to say that the British Army has the same level of responsibility illegal terrorist organisations?

No, they should and mostly have ( out of what, 250,000 who have served there ) operated above the rule of the law. I condemn any murders committed by the British army of innocent people just as I condemn murders by terrorist groups.

OhNoYouDidn't

Japer wrote: »

Would you advocate spending close on 200 million sterling ( which would fund a lot of cancer screening or other worthwhile work ) investigating all the other deaths which occured during the troubles, and " Jailing or at least putting on trial " those responsible ? I thought under the terms of the good friday agreement those in jail were let out, and the tone was one of forgiveness and moving forward ?
I would to add that I , like a previous poster wrote, would also "personally condemn any murders from any republican or loyalist army, including the british army"

Deflection tactic B. Talk about the cost.

gizmo555

Japer wrote: »

Would you advocate spending close on 200 million sterling

The inquiry would no doubt have been quicker and cheaper if so many of the Paras giving evidence hadn't lied through their teeth . . . .

Japer

gizmo555 wrote: »

The inquiry would no doubt have been quicker and cheaper if so many of the Paras giving evidence hadn't lied through their teeth . . . .

Where in the report does it say that so many of the Paras giving evidence had lied through their teeth ? I am not saying the report did or did not say that, I would just like to know if or what the report said about some of the paras lying through their teeth , about what happened in 1972.

Nodin

Japer wrote: »

Where in the report does it say that so many of the Paras giving evidence had lied through their teeth ?

Saville concludes: "Apart from Private T many of these soldiers have knowingly put forward false accounts in order to seek to justify their firing."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/northern_ireland/foyle_and_west/10319881.stm

Feownah

Fuhrer wrote: »

Jailing or at least putting on trial those soldiers would be a good way of putting it to bed.

I agree.

Interesting Synopsis on David Camerons apology on the BBC Website
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/northern_ireland/10325283.stm

Norman Smith,
Chief political correspondent, BBC Radio 4
A genuine apology can be a powerful political weapon - but one that politicians have tended to shy away from for fear of being seen as weak or in the wrong.

However David Cameron's apology in the commons for Bloody Sunday maybe crucial in helping to convince many of the families not to pursue legal action against the paratroopers.

Indeed, in extraordinary scenes Mr Cameron was actually applauded and cheered by the families and their supporters as they watched him on a huge screen outside Derry's Guildhall deliver an uncompromising condemnation of the "unjustified and unjustifiable" action of British soldiers.

One lawyer suggested that had Mr Cameron in any way sought to justify the conduct of British paratroopers then the likelihood was that the soldiers would have been pursued by the families through the civil courts.

And so - Mr Cameron's intervention, coupled with the strength of the report, would appear to have convinced many of the families that they have secured what they wanted, namely the vindication of their loved ones - and that there is no need for soldiers to appear in the dock.

celticfan32

Those dirty parachute regiment b....ards should be brought to justice and all of them be hung in front of the Guild hall in Derry. Murdering scumbags !!!! A great day for the people of Derry !!!

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

Let's try this again


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/northern_ireland/10320609.stm

All your "if","would have", "probably would have" and Martin McGuiness have no bearing on it. Its just mud you're chucking in the water.

No, I am discussing the Savillle enquiry report, that clearly indicates members of the IRA were in and around the area and intended to carry out an attack.

Incidentally, what is the IRA's definition of a "Non-Combatant"? As that appears to be a big part of their apology.

citytillidie

with all those calling for the IRA to say sorry, why are they not calling for the UVF,UFF thr red hand commandos etc to say sorry for what they have done

citytillidie

For those talking about Martin McGuiness probably having a gun are missing one big word in the statement. Probably which means there is no facts to back up that he had one

walshb

Jaap wrote: »

What was the cost of this enquiry...something like 200 million pounds...to tell us something we already know.
Maybe we should spend a few more hundreds of million investigating other serious incidents during the troubles such as Bloody Friday...the Enniskillen bomb...massacres carried out by both sides...after all many of people say it was a war!!!
I think we should just be moving on in Northern Ireland...not looking back at incidents 40 years, 30 years or even 20 years ago...as no one is going to be brought before the courts and deservedly jailed!!!
Paramilitaries who have murdered and should be still in jail have been walking the streets for years now...the Shankill bomber Sean Kelly served 7 years for killing 9 people in 1993...released in 2000 under terms of the GFA!!! Loyalist murders of course also got released as well!!!
The decent people of Northern Ireland will never get justice for what went on during the troubles...hence we should all move on and concentrate on the future!!!

I take it that you lost nobody in this massacre?

Justice has been FINALLY served, it does not matter how long ago it was, it was wanted and needed, and eventually the British soldiers are officially found to be killers, killers of unarmed persons.

caseyann

citytillidie wrote: »

For those talking about Martin McGuiness probably having a gun are missing one big word in the statement. Probably which means there is no facts to back up that he had one

There will always be someone saying but or probably or because.

Fuhrer

walshb wrote: »

I take it that you lost nobody in this massacre?

Justice has been FINALLY served, it does not matter how long ago it was, it was wanted and needed, and eventually the British soldiers are officially found to be killers, killers of unarmed persons.

Justice?


For the past 38 years the families of the victims had to suffer snide innuendo and insults from the low life British press about being terrorists and having guns and pipe bombs.


The people who murdered unarmed civilians have been honoured with medals, awards, choice positions on top of their government wages and salary. They dont even have to have their names published.

Only when these murderers are stripped of their honours, rank, dishonorably discharged and publicy & openly charged with murder will justice be done. What they did was abhorrent and their names should be shamed publicly as such/

Dr. Baltar

I don't understand why people are attempting to turn this into an IRA thread.

The families of the victims of Bloody Sunday were not all IRA supporters, rather they simply wanted the same rights in their part of the island as any protestant and were killed because of their demonstrations.

Now it has been confirmed 38 years later that those murders were unlawful and now the families can proudly say that the victims were not terrorists but innocent marchers.

If anything this thread should celebrate the justice that these families have found (if any) because of this report and leave the IRA crap to another thread.

Fuhrer wrote: »

Justice?


For the past 38 years the families of the victims had to suffer snide innuendo and insults from the low life British press about being terrorists and having guns and pipe bombs.


The people who murdered unarmed civilians have been honoured with medals, awards, choice positions on top of their government wages and salary. They dont even have to have their names published.

Only when these murderers are stripped of their honours, rank, dishonorably discharged and publicy & openly charged with murder will justice be done. What they did was abhorrent and their names should be shamed publicly as such/

Also, I completely agree. Medals, awards ect. need to be removed and a dishonourable discharge would mean full justice I think.

Livvie

citytillidie wrote: »

with all those calling for the IRA to say sorry, why are they not calling for the UVF,UFF thr red hand commandos etc to say sorry for what they have done

I don't think that will ever happen. I may be wrong, but I can't see the UVF etc. ever believing that they had anything to be sorry for - they will justify all their actions playground fashion. "He started it."

walshb

Fuhrer wrote: »

Justice?

/

Not complete justice, but justice in the sense that the British authorities have
'accepted' that what transpired on that day was unlawful killing. We all
knew it was, but now it has been officially put out there. It is a victory
for the families, a small one, but a victory nonetheless.

BTW, "even" if the dead were IRA sympathisers, that doesn't excuse/explain the killing
of these people. It was what it was, British soldiers gunning
down Irish people, because they were Irish.

danbohan

Fuhrer wrote: »

The republican groups and loyalists groups are terrorists.

You are really trying to say that the British Army has the same level of responsibility illegal terrorist organisations?

the british army is a terrorist organization as the actions by the paratroopers in derry proved

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, I am discussing the Savillle enquiry report, that clearly indicates members of the IRA were in and around the area and intended to carry out an attack..

And concluded that was nothing to do with soldiers opening fire, or justification for it. Have you even read the thing?

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Incidentally, what is the IRA's definition of a "Non-Combatant"? As that appears to be a big part of their apology.

Whats the Talebans? Whats that to do with anything? "But Martin Mc Guinness....."

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

And concluded that was nothing to do with soldiers opening fire, or justification for it. Have you even read the thing?

Quite a bit. Have you, or only the bits you like?

It is a good report and states what most people have thought all along.

I'm just making the point that Martin McGuinnes is incredibly hypocritical when he was fully intending to use violence and endanger people's lives that day. Maybe an apology from him wouldn't go amiss.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Quite a bit. Have you, or only the bits you like?

It is a good report and (..........)is incredibly hypocritical when he was fully intending to use violence and endanger people's lives that day. Maybe an apology from him wouldn't go amiss.

Yep, that's what I thought. Deflect, dodge, deny.