Africa Day, Iveagh Gardens Dublin 16th May

Millicent

theboxer wrote: »

I never said they were work shy.

Around the late 90s, the word must have gone around in certain african countries that Ireland was a soft touch for immigration. Ireland had and continues to have no effective structure in place to deal with immigration and the government, thinking it had unlimited funds simply sat on their hands and let the situation get out of control. I am getting off topic here, but heres a fun fact. Ireland, a country with no direct flights from Nigeria, received more Nigerian asylum seekers during the last decade, than any other EU country.

I guess I am what is known around these parts as "liberal" and I agree. Immigration is not well regulated enough in this country. Still doesn't mean we can't have an Africa Day.

theboxer

Pherekydes wrote: »

The double standards are on our side. Europeans did what they wished for centuries in Africa, but we don't want them to follow us back here.

How many african slaves were brought to Ireland?

Pherekydes wrote: »

Migration is a one way street.

No, no it is not. There are more africans in EU memeber states, than EU citizens(and white, eg the boers) resident in africa.

Orange69

southsiderosie wrote: »

Incidentally, why are the tags for this thread "dole leeches" and "parasites"?

Hm.

I loled

southsiderosie

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Actually, no I don't. People migrate for opportunity and employment all over the place. Should every ex-pat on the planet be welcomed with a fanfare and a government-funded day of celebration for their culture?

Assuming that you are Irish, this comment is pretty rich.

Cavehill Red

Millicent wrote: »

Not every ex-pat but yes, when a large proportion of your immigrant is from a certain continent, to not recognise them is, well, rude. And in all fairness, a lot of Irish people expect that fanfare and more when they emigrate.

Where we part company is on the government squandering BORROWED money to the tune of hundreds of thousands of euro on 'recognising' them.
I'm not aware of any Irish people 'expecting a fanfare' anywhere. Millions of Irish people left here for generations, and they didn't get or expect government funded celebrations anywhere.
People migrate for personal reasons. They choose where they go. One assumes that if they choose to go and spend their life in a particular place, they are not particularly in need of a multi-million welcome.

Millicent wrote: »

As to what "I believe"? I believe I tend to research my points when needed and add links to back up my opinions. I did not patronise you in any way; kindly don't do the same to me.

Allow me to be clear then, so as not to be confused for being patronising.
African tourists make up a microscopic proportion of our tourism and African corporations make up an even smaller proportion of our FDI, and it was always thus.

Cavehill Red

southsiderosie wrote: »

Assuming that you are Irish, this comment is pretty rich.

How so?
I've already objected on this thread to the hijacking of St Patrick's Day by state bodies.
I'd be only delighted if they rolled back on that and returned the festival to the Irish people to whom it belongs.

Pherekydes

theboxer wrote: »

No, no it is not.

I meant, of course, that we (in Europe, generally) want migration to be a one-way street. We want our citizens to have the right to go anywhere in the world (in search of a better life), but we don't want anyone landing on our doorstep (in search of a better life).

Clear enough for you?

rovert

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Allow me to be clear then, so as not to be confused for being patronising.
African tourists make up a microscopic proportion of our tourism and African corporations make up an even smaller proportion of our FDI, and it was always thus.

Damn third world countries

OPENROAD

Cavehill Red wrote: »

and they didn't get or expect government funded celebrations anywhere.
.

They get funding in London for St Patricks Day.

Millicent

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Where we part company is on the government squandering BORROWED money to the tune of hundreds of thousands of euro on 'recognising' them.
I'm not aware of any Irish people 'expecting a fanfare' anywhere. Millions of Irish people left here for generations, and they didn't get or expect government funded celebrations anywhere.
People migrate for personal reasons. They choose where they go. One assumes that if they choose to go and spend their life in a particular place, they are not particularly in need of a multi-million welcome.

A multi-million? Why multi-million? And the government is already squandering borrowed money on dead banks. I'm quite happy that they're "squandering" money on an event that is inclusive to all instead of a hand-out to the upper-class. Least some ordinary people will feel the benefit of it.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Allow me to be clear then, so as not to be confused for being patronising.
African tourists make up a microscopic proportion of our tourism and African corporations make up an even smaller proportion of our FDI, and it was always thus.

It has always been thus because Africa so far has always been a developing or exploited economy. There are countries in the continent which are beginning to gain prosperity and who may prove to be advantageous to us in the future. Who knows? At the very least, a positive stereotype about the Irish may be reinforced by this festival.

Cavehill Red

OPENROAD wrote: »

They get funding in London for St Patricks Day.

Capital of the UK, which claims as a constituent nation part of Ireland.
They're paying for it because it's one of THEIR national days.

OPENROAD

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Capital of the UK, which claims as a constituent nation part of Ireland.
They're paying for it because it's one of THEIR national days.

lol, many Londoners would disagree with you there

Cavehill Red

Millicent wrote: »

A multi-million? Why multi-million? And the government is already squandering borrowed money on dead banks. I'm quite happy that they're "squandering" money on an event that is inclusive to all instead of a hand-out to the upper-class. Least some ordinary people will feel the benefit of it.

Whataboutery doesn't justify this expense in the current economic climate. I'd rather they weren't squandering money at all on anything, be it handouts to the upper class or an expensive shindig for Africans.

Millicent wrote: »

It has always been thus because Africa so far has always been a developing or exploited economy. There are countries in the continent which are beginning to gain prosperity and who may prove to be advantageous to us in the future. Who knows? At the very least, a positive stereotype about the Irish may be reinforced by this festival.

Who knows? You apparently, since you stated that this event would be beneficial to attracting tourism and investment from Africa.
As for reinforcing positive stereotypes, we would do much better to stop borrowing for such things and start trying to pay some of the money back.

Boxoffrogs

Millicent wrote: »

I guess I am what is known around these parts as "liberal" and I agree. Immigration is not well regulated enough in this country. Still doesn't mean we can't have an Africa Day.

Hee hee, me too Millicent, and proudly so. I can't for the life of me figure why it's almost seen as a dirty word and they way some people spit it out in almost venom like fashion amazes me.
I really hope it stays fine for those of you who are not so liberal minded.

Bring on Africa Day!!

southsiderosie

Cavehill Red wrote: »

How so?
I've already objected on this thread to the hijacking of St Patrick's Day by state bodies.
I'd be only delighted if they rolled back on that and returned the festival to the Irish people to whom it belongs.

So the Ancient Order of Hibernians will provide cops, barriers, paramedics, extra security for all of the crazed drunk people afterwards, extra street cleaners, sound systems, and advertising to manage St Patrick's Day parades that take place in U.S. cities with populations in the millions? Oh, ok. :rolleyes:

As for the Dublin parade, lord, it needs to be handed over to somebody, because it is a sad state of affairs as is. Interestingly, along my section of the parade route there were more foreigners than Irish; most of my Irish friends thought I was crazy for going in the first place.

Ultimately, public events require public funds. In the greater scheme of things, these funds are minimal compared to the overall budget. In addition, they make cities more fun and interesting places to live, especially since so much of what goes on in Ireland revolves around alcohol (which is actually one of this things that sometimes makes life as a foreigner here difficult).

Cavehill Red

OPENROAD wrote: »

lol, many Londoners would disagree with you there

I'd disagree too. But it's their opinion that counts. If they think it's a day of national celebration, then they're going to celebrate it.

OPENROAD

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I'd disagree too. But it's their opinion that counts. If they think it's a day of national celebration, then they're going to celebrate it.

Well they don't view St Patricks days as a national day of celebration, UK funds many national days with events taking place in London throughout the year.

Cavehill Red

southsiderosie wrote: »

So the Ancient Order of Hibernians will provide cops, barriers, paramedics, extra security for all of the crazed drunk people afterwards, extra street cleaners, sound systems, and advertising to manage St Patrick's Day parades that take place in U.S. cities with populations in the millions? Oh, ok. :rolleyes:

Or we could revert to St Patrick's Day being a festival of primarily religious significance, in which people celebrate their nationality on a voluntary basis by way of parades which are policed and secured, as all such events are, by the state.
There is no requirement for the State to continue hijacking the feast day of a Christian Church and spend the taxpayers' money agendising it.

As for the Dublin parade, lord, it needs to be handed over to somebody, because it is a sad state of affairs as is. Interestingly, along my section of the parade route there were more foreigners than Irish; most of my Irish friends thought I was crazy for going in the first place.

southsiderosie wrote: »

Ultimately, public events require public funds. In the greater scheme of things, these funds are minimal compared to the overall budget. In addition, they make cities more fun and interesting places to live, especially since so much of what goes on in Ireland revolves around alcohol (which is actually one of this things that sometimes makes life as a foreigner here difficult).

Plenty of events open to the public are privately organised and run. One thinks of sporting occasions.
I utterly concur with you on the issue of alcohol abuse in Ireland. It is shocking. But the negative stereotype of the drunk Irishman is well-established globally, so I doubt the drink culture here comes as a surprise to anyone who migrates here.

Mrmoe

There is nothing wrong with celebrating Africa day. The crux of the argument against it seems to be an economic one where we simply do not have the money to pay for it. A counter argument is that we generate more revenue due to holding this festival whether due to increased goodwill from African countries or increased productivity from African migrants who would feel more integrated as a result of this. Has anybody any figures to back either argument up? In my mind it would make sense to postpone this festival or find an alternative funding source for maybe a couple of years until we have the national budget under control. The same goes for many other festivals and arts events. Spending needs to be prioritised and I do not think this is top of the list in the immediate timeframe.

Orange69

diddledum wrote: »

Hee hee, me too Millicent, and proudly so. I can't for the life of me figure why it's almost seen as a dirty word and they way some people spit it out in almost venom like fashion amazes me.
I really hope it stays fine for those of you who are not so liberal minded.

Bring on Africa Day!!

I vomited a little bit in my mouth reading this.

What do you imagine is going to happen to the non-liberals?

Millicent

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Whataboutery doesn't justify this expense in the current economic climate. I'd rather they weren't squandering money at all on anything, be it handouts to the upper class or an expensive shindig for Africans.

For Africans? Oh God, sorry. I didn't realise that only Africans were allowed to attend. That changes my stance entirely.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Who knows? You apparently, since you stated that this event would be beneficial to attracting tourism and investment from Africa.
As for reinforcing positive stereotypes, we would do much better to stop borrowing for such things and start trying to pay some of the money back.

And we're back to patronising in exchange for healthy debate. No, I do not nor did I claim to know anything. We should also stop fnding libraries, galleries, theatres- heck, let's go the whole hog and just stop funding any culture because it apparently benefits no one and has no purpose in the world.

Island of saints moochers and scholars uncultured neanderthals we have going here apparently.

Cavehill Red

OPENROAD wrote: »

Well they don't view St Patricks days as a national day of celebration, UK funds many national days with events taking place in London throughout the year.

They genuinely DO view St Patrick's Day as one of their national days, more's the pity.
As for what Britain funds, that's Britain's affair. Their economy is more robust than ours, especially that of Greater London.

Millicent

Mrmoe wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with celebrating Africa day. The crux of the argument against it seems to be an economic one where we simply do not have the money to pay for it. A counter argument is that we generate more revenue due to holding this festival whether due to increased goodwill from African countries or increased productivity from African migrants who would feel more integrated as a result of this. Has anybody any figures to back either argument up? In my mind it would make sense to postpone this festival or find an alternative funding source for maybe a couple of years until we have the national budget under control. The same goes for many other festivals and arts events. Spending needs to be prioritised and I do not think this is top of the list in the immediate timeframe.

How about the increased sales in Dublin where people are attending the event. More revenue in food, travel etc.? Should we postpone funding for sports events as well? I'm not trying to attack you or your post but people need distraction and a bit of craic here and there, especially in a recession.

OPENROAD

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Or we could revert to St Patrick's Day being a festival of primarily religious significance, in which people celebrate their nationality on a voluntary basis by way of parades which are policed and secured, as all such events are, by the state.
There is no requirement for the State to continue hijacking the feast day of a Christian Church and spend the taxpayers' money agendising it.

.

Have we really celebrated St Patricks day in recent times? St Patricks Day is just an excuse for people to stockpile beer from supermakets and consume large quantities of drink and get as drunk as possible, sure we have parades and stuff but this is mainly for the kids.

ascanbe

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Where we part company is on the government squandering BORROWED money to the tune of hundreds of thousands of euro on 'recognising' them.
I'm not aware of any Irish people 'expecting a fanfare' anywhere. Millions of Irish people left here for generations, and they didn't get or expect government funded celebrations anywhere.
People migrate for personal reasons. They choose where they go. One assumes that if they choose to go and spend their life in a particular place, they are not particularly in need of a multi-million welcome.



Allow me to be clear then, so as not to be confused for being patronising.
African tourists make up a microscopic proportion of our tourism and African corporations make up an even smaller proportion of our FDI, and it was always thus.

Could you provide info as to what extent this day is 'funded' by the tax payer?
Also, you should take into account the fact that there are a number of people originally from Africa who have been here for some time, have been working here and are paying tax.
If this is, infact, being funded to any significant degree, i'm sure you'll appreciate that it was probably approved at a time when the country deluded itself into thinking it was rich; the Celtic Tiger and all that.
Everything being floated at that time was usually successful in gaining some funding.
Don't worry; if the organisers of this are indeed recieving government funding it's upon terms negotiated in the past and you can be assured that it will soon come to an end.
In the meantime, i look forward to your rants against all the other schemes you deem unworthy of funding that benifited from such over the last 10 or so years.
I mean this is just about taxpayers money, isn't it?

Cavehill Red

Millicent wrote: »

For Africans? Oh God, sorry. I didn't realise that only Africans were allowed to attend. That changes my stance entirely.

Apparently we're spending all this money so that Africans will feel 'recognised'.

Millicent wrote: »

And we're back to patronising in exchange for healthy debate. No, I do not nor did I claim to know anything. We should also stop fnding libraries, galleries, theatres- heck, let's go the whole hog and just stop funding any culture because it apparently benefuts no one and has no purpose in the world.

Overreact much?
How about we just start by focusing on educating children properly, then they can grow up with some knowledge of culture, instead of consuming endless X Factor and Miley Cyrus.
And how about we CUT funding to galleries and theatres instead of stopping all funding?
I love the way some advocates of endless arts funding try to conflate the likes of artists' grants with library provision. It's hilarious, as if giving gold necklaces out to fatcats in Aosdana was the equivalent culturally of giving kids a chance to read.

Cavehill Red

OPENROAD wrote: »

Have we really celebrated St Patricks day in recent times? St Patricks Day is just an excuse for people to stockpile beer from supermakets and consume large quantities of drink and get as drunk as possible, sure we have parades and stuff but this is mainly for the kids.

I agree.
And I would draw a distinction between the way St Patrick's Day was some years back BEFORE the state took over, and now.
Again as an ardent atheist, I think the aggressive secularising of the feast day has assisted the explosion in alcohol abuse.

OPENROAD

Cavehill Red wrote: »

They genuinely DO view St Patrick's Day as one of their national days, more's the pity.
As for what Britain funds, that's Britain's affair. Their economy is more robust than ours, especially that of Greater London.

I can only speak for London and they don't, look at the press releases and mayoral interviews etc... no mention of national day, it is to celebrate the contribution the Irish have made to London, well thats the official line given, and fair play to the powers that be in London, recognising its diverse culture, its what makes London the great city it is.

I would agree with you re the UK economy, though you will find plenty on boards who will disagree that said I'm sure some would argue in London that maybe the funds should be directed elsewhere at this time.

OPENROAD

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I agree.
And I would draw a distinction between the way St Patrick's Day was some years back BEFORE the state took over, and now.
Again as an ardent atheist, I think the aggressive secularising of the feast day has assisted the explosion in alcohol abuse.

Well certainly for the past 18 years it has been a day to drink as much as possible, not sure what it was like before that. Not sure I would agree with you, I think we need little excuse to engage in drinking, any day off, bank holiday weekend etc...

well this looks like an awfully serious thread so I shalln't hang around.

Just wanted to say thanks OP for bringing it to my attention, something to do with the family tomorrow