Africa Day, Iveagh Gardens Dublin 16th May

Cavehill Red

ascanbe wrote: »

Could you provide info as to what extent this day is 'funded' by the tax payer?

Already did. It's hundreds of thousands of euro annually, taken directly from the Irish Aid budget.

ascanbe wrote: »

Also, you should take into account the fact that there are a number of people originally from Africa who have been here for some time, have been working here and are paying tax.

And what?
There are plenty of Americans here too. Where's their state-funded day? What about Australasians? Where's theres?

ascanbe wrote: »

If this is, infact, being funded to any significant degree, i'm sure you'll appreciate that it was probably approved at a time when the country deluded itself into thinking it was rich; the Celtic Tiger and all that.

No, it is an annual event whose budget is approved annually.

ascanbe wrote: »

I mean this is just about taxpayers money, isn't it?

Actually, I think it's also about us being in utter denial as a nation about the state we're currently in.
We're BORROWING half a BILLION euro every WEEK, currently. And we're squandering it on bankrupt banks, empty houses and shindigs to 'recognise' Africans.
We need to cop on, or the IMF will cop us on quickly enough.

Millicent

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Apparently we're spending all this money so that Africans will feel 'recognised'.

No, we're not. It's a cultural festival. Have you looked at the official site at all?

Irish Aid invites people throughout Ireland to join in an exploration and celebration of African music, dance, film, history, art, social and political life and much more for Africa Day.

We should definitely not spend money on that and continue to recognise Africa only as a poor, famine-ridden continent with no value to anything. What could generating a bit of positive press and attention achieve?

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Overreact much?
How about we just start by focusing on educating children properly, then they can grow up with some knowledge of culture, instead of consuming endless X Factor and Miley Cyrus.
And how about we CUT funding to galleries and theatres instead of stopping all funding?
I love the way some advocates of endless arts funding try to conflate the likes of artists' grants with library provision. It's hilarious, as if giving gold necklaces out to fatcats in Aosdana was the equivalent culturally of giving kids a chance to read.

I love the way some people make thinly veiled jibes to circumvent the "attack the post, not the poster" rule. And clearly I was advocating that children should only be aware of Miley Cyrus and X Factor by saying that spending money on a cultural festival was a waste of money. Oh wait, no...

Cut funding to galleries and theatres. I have no problem with that. But there are many other sources of public spending that need to be culled first. Education comes in other shapes than through a school system and if you refuse to recognise that, I see no point in arguing.

starbelgrade

ascanbe wrote: »

Could you provide info as to what extent this day is 'funded' by the tax payer?

Irish Aid are funding the event. They are part of the Department of Foreign Affairs, which is funded entirely by the taxpayer - Information on the event's funding process can be found here;

http://www.irishaid.gov.ie/community-events-grants.asp

ascanbe wrote: »

If this is, infact, being funded to any significant degree, i'm sure you'll appreciate that it was probably approved at a time when the country deluded itself into thinking it was rich; the Celtic Tiger and all that.

Not strictly true. Our overseas devlopment aid budget last year was over €600 million - just a slight decrease than in recent years.

Nodin

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Apparently we're spending all this money so that Africans will feel 'recognised'.
.

You still haven't explained why theres a list of supporters
http://africaday.irishaid.org/Supporters.aspx

What do you normally have to do to be classed as a supporter of something? Whats the benefit to the supporter themselves?

And please detail how and why the state is trying to destroy Irish culture...

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I agree.
And I would draw a distinction between the way St Patrick's Day was some years back BEFORE the state took over, and now.
Again as an ardent atheist, I think the aggressive secularising....

Yep, there was no drinking in Ireland till we became more secular....

southsiderosie

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Or we could revert to St Patrick's Day being a festival of primarily religious significance, in which people celebrate their nationality on a voluntary basis by way of parades which are policed and secured, as all such events are, by the state.
There is no requirement for the State to continue hijacking the feast day of a Christian Church and spend the taxpayers' money agendising it.


Plenty of events open to the public are privately organised and run. One thinks of sporting occasions.
I utterly concur with you on the issue of alcohol abuse in Ireland. It is shocking. But the negative stereotype of the drunk Irishman is well-established globally, so I doubt the drink culture here comes as a surprise to anyone who migrates here.

Most sporting events are not free, which is a pity given the amount of public money that goes into stadium construction and maintenance.

There is no reason why local parishes cannot have their own St Patrick's Day marches and festivities that do not need a large public security and clean-up presence. But St. Patrick's Day is essentially "IRISH DAY", and became such in part through attempts by the Irish to gain civic and social recognition in the US. Today, it generates huge tourism revenue for Ireland.

Incidentally, in Chicago we also celebrate Columbus Day (Italian) and Pulaski Day (Eastern European), both of which are public holidays. New York has a Puerto Rican Day parade that goes down 5th Avenue (the same route as the St Patrick's Day parade) and there is a West Indian parade and festival in Brooklyn. Chinese New Year is a huge public festival in San Francisco, and Cinco de Mayo (Mexican) is big in LA. Ultimately, in countries where there is a diverse population, ethnic festivals are really a way for the public at large to both party and gain some kind of cultural understanding of their neighbors. And I don't see anything wrong with that. Onwards, Africa Day!

Cavehill Red

OPENROAD wrote: »

I can only speak for London and they don't, look at the press releases and mayoral interviews etc... no mention of national day, it is to celebrate the contribution the Irish have made to London, well thats the official line given, and fair play to the powers that be in London, recognising its diverse culture, its what makes London the great city it is.

I heard Boris Johnson on Radio 4 recently talking about the UK's 'Four National Days' in the context of why isn't George's Day more celebrated and so on.

OPENROAD wrote: »

I would agree with you re the UK economy, though you will find plenty on boards who will disagree that said I'm sure some would argue in London that maybe the funds should be directed elsewhere at this time.

Like I said, let the British fund what they choose. That's their affair. But I've little doubt that the Tory cuts will start falling shortly on state support for such events.

Nodin

diddledum wrote: »

Hee hee, me too Millicent, and proudly so. I can't for the life of me figure why it's almost seen as a dirty word and they way some people spit it out in almost venom like fashion amazes me.
I really hope it stays fine for those of you who are not so liberal minded.

Bring on Africa Day!!

What about Africa week? Parades in every town in the country.

Cavehill Red

Millicent wrote: »

No, we're not. It's a cultural festival. Have you looked at the official site at all?

All festivals are cultural. That's a vapid thing to say.

Millicent wrote: »

We should definitely not spend money on that and continue to recognise Africa only as a poor, famine-ridden continent with no value to anything. What could generating a bit of positive press and attention achieve?

Nothing, frankly. It achieves nothing.
Africa IS a poor, famine-ridden continent. I don't see why spinning otherwise would be in anyone's interest, least of all that of Africans.

Millicent wrote: »

I love the way some people make thinly veiled jibes to circumvent the "attack the post, not the poster" rule. And clearly I was advocating that children should only be aware of Miley Cyrus and X Factor by saying that spending money on a cultural festival was a waste of money. Oh wait, no...
Cut funding to galleries and theatres. I have no problem with that. But there are many other sources of public spending that need to be culled first. Education comes in other shapes than through a school system and if you refuse to recognise that, I see no point in arguing.

At this point we need to cut funding to everything. Personally, I feel confident enough that I can live with only for-profit cultural expression for a little while, so long as the schools and hospitals are in good condition and not being slashed of services and closed down. Oh wait, no...

Cavehill Red

Nodin wrote: »

You still haven't explained why theres a list of supporters
http://africaday.irishaid.org/Supporters.aspx

What do you normally have to do to be classed as a supporter of something? Whats the benefit to the supporter themselves?

I have no idea. And I've also no idea why you keep asking me a question I've told you repeatedly I don't know the answer to.

Nodin wrote: »

And please detail how and why the state is trying to destroy Irish culture...

You forgot the St Patrick's Day discussion already? Read back a few pages.

Nodin wrote: »

Yep, there was no drinking in Ireland till we became more secular....

Worzel Gummidge called. He wants his straw man back.

OPENROAD

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I heard Boris Johnson on Radio 4 recently talking about the UK's 'Four National Days' in the context of why isn't George's Day more celebrated and so on.



Like I said, let the British fund what they choose. That's their affair. But I've little doubt that the Tory cuts will start falling shortly on state support for such events.

Well I haven't heard that myself, I'm not doubting you, but interviews I have heard from Boris and indeed Ken Livingston suggest its to acknowledge tghe large Irish population in the UK.

Just out of interest and I appreciate what you say in thats is their business what they fund, but I'm sure given your views that you would not blame them cutting back on funding for it given the economic circumstances? You wouldn't start saying its anti Irish

Millicent

Cavehill Red wrote: »

All festivals are cultural. That's a vapid thing to say.

Oh look. Patronisation. That's new. Pedantry's always an argument winner. Good tactic.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Nothing, frankly. It achieves nothing.
Africa IS a poor, famine-ridden continent. I don't see why spinning otherwise would be in anyone's interest, least of all that of Africans.

And that's all it is, is it? I'll be sure to tell my African friends who express dismay that that's all people know about them or their continent.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

At this point we need to cut funding to everything. Personally, I feel confident enough that I can live with only for-profit cultural expression for a little while, so long as the schools and hospitals are in good condition and not being slashed of services and closed down. Oh wait, no...

Oh, I see what you did there with the "oh wait, no...". Very good.

At what point did I disagree that funding should be cut to a lot of things? And I am not confident that I can live with an only for-profit cultural expression. It fosters elitism and pretension and diverts attention away from where the real drains on our economy are. So do you believe that we should cut all funding to Irish traditional events? Just trying to gauge the consistency of your opinion.

Cavehill Red

OPENROAD wrote: »

Well I haven't heard that myself, I'm not doubting you, but interviews I have heard from Boris and indeed Ken Livingston suggest its to acknowledge tghe large Irish population in the UK.

Just out of interest and I appreciate what you say in thats is their business what they fund, but I'm sure given your views that you would not blame them cutting back on funding for it given the economic circumstances? You wouldn't start saying its anti Irish

Not at all. I'd welcome it greatly, in fact, because it would return the celebration to the Irish people who live there and remove the state from the picture. That in turn undermines any argument Britain might have about the North of Ireland being a constituent part of their nation.

billy the squid

This thread is 14 pages of stupid.

As for an ireland day , or ceremonies to celebrate irishness, we have two, St. Patrick's day, which the taxpayers of numerous other countries which hold parades have to foot the bill for . for things such as traffic diversions, police etc.

Of all the different cultures in New York for example, who mark an occaasion with a parade, st patrick's day parades are the only ones which are allowed to take place on a weekday.

Our second occasion is the commemoration of the Easter Rising. usually done on Easter Sunday.

I also believe there is a day celebrating europeanness in May.


The stormfronters arn't doing a good job concealing themselves in this thread.

Nodin

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I have no idea. And I've also no idea why you keep asking me a question I've told you repeatedly I don't know the answer to..

So you're unable to grasp the concepts of "patronage", "supporter" and "sponsorship"?

Financial support...sponsorship. Its this thing where companies sponsor events and get some advertising as a result.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

You forgot the St Patrick's Day discussion already? Read back a few pages...

There is, supposedly, a great deal more to Irish culture than the St Paddys day parade, last I knew. You seem also to base that claim on the alleged exclusion of certain kinds of religous imagery, which is again rather a narrow target.

You wouldn't be stating that holding a certain religous belief is required to be considered Irish, by any chance?

You've at no stage explained why the state would do this.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Worzel Gummidge called. He wants his straw man back.

I'm merely pointing out another error of yours.

OPENROAD

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Not at all. I'd welcome it greatly, in fact, because it would return the celebration to the Irish people who live there and remove the state from the picture. That in turn undermines any argument Britain might have about the North of Ireland being a constituent part of their nation.

Well at least you are consistent, actually the funding was cut this year and actually some did complain about the cutback in funding.

Can't agree with the rest either, as said many cutural events are held in London each year and its more to acknowledge the diversity of London and the contribution made to London.

ejmaztec

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Worzel Gummidge called. He wants his straw man back.

That's complete rubbish, but at least you're consistent.

Cavehill Red

Millicent wrote: »

Oh look. Patronisation. That's new. Pedantry's always an argument winner. Good tactic.

Your statement was meaningless. You used it to seek to justify the shocking expenditure on this festival. Since the statement has no meaning, your justification falls too.

Millicent wrote: »

And that's all it is, is it? I'll be sure to tell my African friends who express dismay that that's all people know about them or their continent.

That's much of what it is, certainly. It's also riddled with both endemic corruption and natural resources and racial and ethnic tensions.
It's a diverse place, very far away from here with little historical or cultural connections with us, and on that basis I want to know why it is imperative that we spend hundreds of thousands of euro promoting PR spin about Africa rather than other continents with which we have many more connections.
Or why Africans couldn't do it themselves if they feel the need to promote their continent in a better light than they feel it currently obtains.

Millicent wrote: »

At what point did I disagree that funding should be cut to a lot of things? And I am not confident that I can live with an only for-profit cultural expression. It fosters elitism and pretension and diverts attention away from where the real drains on our economy are. So do you believe that we should cut all funding to Irish traditional events? Just trying to gauge the consistency of your opinion.

I'm happy to see cuts fall on Irish traditional events, but I'd like to know what you mean by that phrase first. If you mean events akin to Africa Day, then absolutely yes.

Cavehill Red

Nodin wrote: »

So you're unable to grasp the concepts of "patronage", "supporter" and "sponsorship"?

Not only can I grasp them, I'm also aware of how the meaning of such terms have changed over the centuries, unlike you.

Nodin wrote: »

Financial support...sponsorship. Its this thing where companies sponsor events and get some advertising as a result.

Apparently you knew the answer to your own question all along. Working on that assumption, I'll ignore your questions in future on the assumption you're just wasting my time again.

Millicent

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Your statement was meaningless. You used it to seek to justify the shocking expenditure on this festival. Since the statement has no meaning, your justification falls too.



That's much of what it is, certainly. It's also riddled with both endemic corruption and natural resources and racial and ethnic tensions.
It's a diverse place, very far away from here with little historical or cultural connections with us, and on that basis I want to know why it is imperative that we spend hundreds of thousands of euro promoting PR spin about Africa rather than other continents with which we have many more connections.
Or why Africans couldn't do it themselves if they feel the need to promote their continent in a better light than they feel it currently obtains.




I'm happy to see cuts fall on Irish traditional events, but I'd like to know what you mean by that phrase first. If you mean events akin to Africa Day, then absolutely yes.

Cave Hill, I am tired and I have work in the morning so I have no time to respond to this.

Just to cure you of your pedantry, I cited that it was a cultural festival to distinguish it from a religious one. If you feel like apologising for insulting me incorrectly (or more aptly, asserting that my point was 'vapid'), I'd appreciate it. If not, I won't feel aggrieved.

To everyone else, goodnight and to those of you attending the festival, I hope the weather is good and you enjoy yourselves. Let us know how you get on.

Cavehill Red

Millicent wrote: »

Cave Hill, I am tired and I have work in the morning so I have no time to respond to this.

Just to cure you of your pedantry, I cited that it was a cultural festival to distinguish it from a religious one.

Actually, you didn't. I said, quoting another poster, that the festival was being held to 'recognise' Africans. You retorted that in fact it was cultural. In that context, your statement is vapid and meaningless, as all festivals are cultural.

Millicent wrote: »

If you feel like apologising for insulting me incorrectly (or more aptly, asserting that my point was 'vapid'), I'd appreciate it. If not, I won't feel aggrieved.

Sadly, your point remains vapid, but I am sorry if you are in any way aggrieved. That was not my intention.

Millicent

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Actually, you didn't. I said, quoting another poster, that the festival was being held to 'recognise' Africans. You retorted that in fact it was cultural. In that context, your statement is vapid and meaningless, as all festivals are cultural.



Sadly, your point remains vapid, but I am sorry if you are in any way aggrieved. That was not my intention.

All festivals are not cultural, some are religious. (Yes, it's Wiki but again, it's late and I'm tired). My point is not vapid but whatever.

Hope you have a nice weekend anyway.

ascanbe

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Already did. It's hundreds of thousands of euro annually, taken directly from the Irish Aid budget.



And what?
There are plenty of Americans here too. Where's their state-funded day? What about Australasians? Where's theres?




No, it is an annual event whose budget is approved annually.



Actually, I think it's also about us being in utter denial as a nation about the state we're currently in.
We're BORROWING half a BILLION euro every WEEK, currently. And we're squandering it on bankrupt banks, empty houses and shindigs to 'recognise' Africans.
We need to cop on, or the IMF will cop us on quickly enough.

To deal with your last point first.
Our country is probably on a crash course with the IMF, but you can be sure it isn't because of the relative pittance spent on the Irish Aid Budget, which is really just a meagre sop to our 'international responsibility'; a 'responsibility' we're suppossed to live up to for getting the chance to benifit from being on the right side of the ludicrous trade imbalances set by those who run things.
We have failed to take advantage of the priveliged position we've found ourselves in; indeed we've managed to bankrupt ourselves.
'We' did that through lamentable government policy, lack of regulation and dumb greed; meagre funds given towards 'Africa day' and it's ilk are irrelevant.
This annual event is approved annually? You realise that that means it may not be funded next year? That it's up for renewal? That it isn't funded in perpetuity?
As for Americans or Australasians, as you chose to highlight, not having a day; if they or any other group or anyone on their behalf had looked to organise one, no one would have stopped them and i'm sure they too would garnered some funding.
If you're worried about the financial state of this country there are far bigger fish to fry; this is just making a mountain out of what, in relative terms, doesn't even amount to a mole dropping, let alone a molehill.

Cavehill Red

Millicent wrote: »

All festivals are not cultural, some are religious. (Yes, it's Wiki but again, it's late and I'm tired). My point is not vapid but whatever.

Hope you have a nice weekend anyway.

You don't think religions are cultural? Or their festivals?
Anyhow, good night and enjoy your weekend.

Cavehill Red

ascanbe wrote: »

To deal with your last point first.
Our country is probably on a crash course with the IMF, but you can be sure it isn't because of the relative pittance spent on the Irish Aid Budget, which is really just a meagre sop to our 'international responsibility'; a 'responsibility' we're suppossed to live up to for getting the chance to benifit from being on the right side of the ludicrous trade imbalances set by those who run things.
We have failed to take advantage of the privelidged position we've found ourselves in; indeed we've managed to bankrupt ourselves.

Couldn't agree more. That's why we need to cop ourselves on.
By the way, hundreds of thousands of euro on Africa Day is no pittance, nor the hundreds of millions on Irish Aid overall. Remember, we're BORROWING to pay for these shenanigans.

ascanbe wrote: »

This annual event is approved annually? You realise that that means it may not be funded next year? That it's up for renewal? That it isn't funded in perpetuity?

I was hoping they'd cut the funding this year. Hopefully they will next.

ascanbe wrote: »

As for Americans or Australasians, as you chose to highlight, not having a day; if they or any other group or anyone on their behalf had looked to organise one, no one would have stopped them and i'm sure they too would garnered some funding.

WHY should they garner any funding?
There are Independence Day and Thanksgiving celebrations all over Ireland, anywhere Americans gather, every year. But they don't expect the Irish taxpayer to pick up the tab. They meet up in bars, or restaurants or in homes and celebrate.

ascanbe wrote: »

If you'rE worried about the financial state of this country there are far bigger fish to fry; this is just making a mountain that, in relative terms, doesn't even amount to a mole dropping, let alone a molehill.

If you count the pennies the pounds take care of themselves.
This is like the duck houses and what not in the British expenses scandal. Each little thing in itself is microscopic in terms of the UK state budget. Even added up, those expenses were a drop in the ocean.
But the British people were rightly outraged because they saw their tax take being squandered.
It's perhaps time people realised that things like Africa Day aren't free. Just because you didn't have to pay in at the door doesn't mean you're not paying. We borrowed billions this week, and some of that will be shelled out on Africa Day tomorrow. We'll be paying back for Africa Day 2010 until 2016 at the earliest.

ascanbe

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Couldn't agree more. That's why we need to cop ourselves on.
By the way, hundreds of thousands of euro on Africa Day is no pittance, nor the hundreds of millions on Irish Aid overall. Remember, we're BORROWING to pay for these shenanigans.



I was hoping they'd cut the funding this year. Hopefully they will next.



WHY should they garner any funding?
There are Independence Day and Thanksgiving celebrations all over Ireland, anywhere Americans gather, every year. But they don't expect the Irish taxpayer to pick up the tab. They meet up in bars, or restaurants or in homes and celebrate.



If you count the pennies the pounds take care of themselves.
This is like the duck houses and what not in the British expenses scandal. Each little thing in itself is microscopic in terms of the UK state budget. Even added up, those expenses were a drop in the ocean.
But the British people were rightly outraged because they saw their tax take being squandered.
It's perhaps time people realised that things like Africa Day aren't free. Just because you didn't have to pay in at the door doesn't mean you're not paying. We borrowed billions this week, and some of that will be shelled out on Africa Day tomorrow. We'll be paying back for Africa Day 2010 until 2016 at the earliest.

So this is going to be what you tell your son/daughter when they ask what you did when Ireland was facing her financial d-day: 'Well son/daughter, i did my level best to ensure that a few thousand African and Irish people didn't get to enjoy listening to some music in a field'.

Cavehill Red

ascanbe wrote: »

So this is going to be you tell your son/daughter when they ask what you did when Ireland was facing her financial d-day: 'Well son/daughter, i did my level best to ensure that a few thousand African and Irish people didn't get to enjoy listening to some music in a field'.

I don't need to explain to you what I have or haven't done in terms of contributing to the nation. Beyond anything else, it's utterly off-topic.
And I reject your characterisation. I've informed people of how their money is being wasted, which in my opinion is no bad thing.
And if state funding is the only thing keeping Africa Day afloat - and it is - then it's time Africa Day weaned itself off the teat and paid its own way.

ascanbe

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I don't need to explain to you what I have or haven't done in terms of contributing to the nation. Beyond anything else, it's utterly off-topic.
And I reject your characterisation. I've informed people of how their money is being wasted, which in my opinion is no bad thing.
And if state funding is the only thing keeping Africa Day afloat - and it is - then it's time Africa Day weaned itself off the teat and paid its own way.

Fine. As i stated before, i'm sure that the teat is receding into the body and the hind leg of our great state is shooing 'Africa day' away as we write.
Now; on to the important stuff...

WindSock

I think myself and Mr.Sock might pop along to this tomorrow. Although we were at a Japan one there a few weeks ago that was a bit of a let down. This one may be more vibrant, plus I have never really eaten African foods, 'cept for Moroccon. Actually I think we were on our way to this last year in Merrion Sq, but got sidetracked into waiting to see the Boss.

Nodin

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Apparently you knew the answer to your own question all along. Working on that assumption, I'll ignore your questions in future on the assumption you're just wasting my time again.

Any old excuse.

At least ignoring them is more honest than the pretend 'answers'.

Well, just home, spent about 3-4 hours in Iveagh Gardens.

Really nice day, nice atmosphere, gorgeous weather, great food!
My daughter loved it, she made tribal masks, learned to play african drums, danced, ate lamb curry from Timbuktu, beef stew from.... (somewhere else )
All in all, really great day out.

I left about 4.50 and the queues to get in were all the way down Harcourt st. Successful day all round I would say.