Why it is in YOUR OWN INTEREST not to strike or protest at this time (mid May 2010).

DeVore

20Cent wrote: »

There is a choice C

A large peaceful protest.
Thats the one I'm going for.

You wont get it and you will be hijacked and usurped. We've all seen how they walked with the protestors and then "emerged" in black hoodies. You are naive if you think anything else will happen.

Can't wait around for two years.

You wont have to, I'll put money on an election within 8 months. We have 3 unfilled TD seats awaiting by-elections you know...

Great OP but you ask what has protest ever achieved. Well pretty much every right we have thanks.

Like what? Most of our idea of rights are from the US consititution or by slavishly following the UK. What rights, in modern times, have been achieved by marching protesting and particular, rioting?

Even if the government wanted to (and the greek government certainly wanted to!) they wont be allowed.

Countries are run for the citizens not speculators or banks. If people had spoken up earlier then we mightn't be in this mess.

Woulda Coulda Shoulda. Actually you dont even know that to be fair, it could have been disasterous!

I don't expect it to have immediate change

You might well get one. One you dont like.

but it will make them think twice before screwing us over again.

What? :eek:

No really. What?

You cannot seriously believe that in a country where we REELECTED PROVEN CORRUPT POLITICIANS!

I know people are put off by the SWP flags etc but just because they are there doesn't mean you shouldn't as well.

They are claiming you as one of their own. You didnt hear them saying "there were 1000 people at the rally, of course, only about 20 of them were there for us and everyone else was there for lots of other reasons and hate our guts".

They published on their website that the cops drew batons and charged a peaceful protest. Watch the video again and tell me if they arent lying through their gritted teeth. They are, and I will say this in caps, KNOWINGLY LYING AND THEY ARE LYING LIARS WHO LIE.

Watch the video again and see if you can really say they arent.





Now ask yourself, dont we have enough freakin' liars in the Dail??



DeV.

DeVore

Executive Steve wrote: »

Don't provoke them tbh.

Anyway, it's an open secret that the SWP here and in the UK are essentially fronts for MI5.

Lol.... bring it on.

I've been here for 10 years facing down tougher then them. Stormfront, the Irish Nazi Party, MCD...


I get scarier things then them in my breakfast cereal, lol.

DeV.

DeVore

Guya wrote: »

In this plan B of yours DeV? You're only saying you'll vote against people (quite SWP of you). We all know that's not possible. Who are you going to vote for? What bastion of hope are you looking toward?

I try not to think about depressing things, I get very down.

But thankfully, or unluckily, I dont have to make that choice right now. When it comes round, I dont know who I will vote for but thats not the issue here. Dont confuse things.

I have gone as far as to dream of having a go myself but to be honest, I'm not sure I want to toss my life down the drain of fighting the irish political system. Would you?

Again, this isnt the issue I raised in my OP.

You're making this sound like an ad for Carlsberg. Option C Mr D.
3,000 peaceful marchers last week. We'll see how many this week.

Didnt hear about them.


Did hear about the rioters though. Lots!

Which do you think you are going to be promoting there? dont be naive, they are using you... dont allow them to hijack your peaceful protest.

I believe in a free market. Not a fixed market. In a free market nothing is too big to fail. We don't have capitalism, we have cartellism.

I agree.

I have no idea why Anglo was considered "too big to fail". Theory says the market corrects itself.... Nick Lesson trashed Barings, a huge bank... the queens bank and no one blinked. Northern Rock collapsed and no one blinked much.

Other banks would have bought the loans on the books at the right price. No one has ever given me an answer to that question.

You don't know what to do so you're doing nothing. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with that but it won't achieve anything.

No, I said do nothing AT THE MOMENT. Its a very sensitive time and we need to be sending the right signals to out. Believe me, I'm sharpening my knives for about 8-16 weeks time, presumeing we arent banging the rocks together by then.


DeV.

DeVore

Oh, by the way, since you all seem to think I dont protest.... maybe you havent seen my photo gallery



DeV.

Scofflaw

You'll no doubt be delighted to hear the following:

Members of the GUE / NGL group (United European Left / Nordic Green Left) in the European Parliament speak out in favour of European Days of Protest and Solidarity against the capitalist crisis.

Joe Higgins, Socialist Party MEP from Ireland and member of the Committee for a Workers´ International initiated a meeting with fellow MEPs with the intention of countering both, the nationalist slanders of the international media and European leaders against the Greek workers and youth; as well as to counter the illusion that the huge bail-out package of €750 billion which was agreed by the European Commission, the euro zone member states and the IMF represents the beginning of a solid recovery.

The meeting agreed to propose the week of June 21 – 26 as dates for European protests and for those dates to be discussed in our respective organisations and parties, as well as the trade unions, social movements and other left organisations.

A next meeting has been called for next week in order to finalise the proposals and ideas.

cordially,
Scofflaw

mike65

Sounds like an excuse for a picnic if you ask me.

Guya

DeVore wrote: »

I have gone as far as to dream of having a go myself but to be honest, I'm not sure I want to toss my life down the drain of fighting the irish political system. Would you?

......

Which do you think you are going to be promoting there? dont be naive, they are using you... dont allow them to hijack your peaceful protest.

......

No, I said do nothing AT THE MOMENT. Its a very sensitive time and we need to be sending the right signals to out. Believe me, I'm sharpening my knives for about 8-16 weeks time, presumeing we arent banging the rocks together by then.


DeV.

DeV

Right now the banks are using all of us. They are using our silence. Using our inaction. Using our fear. Using our pensions.

They have us by the balls and expect our hearts and minds to follow.

They really have imposed a tax on our future. I can't believe I'm writing this. It's like something OCP would do in Robocop's Detroit.

I don't care about groups that call themselves anarchists/socialist workers/Marxists or anything else. I don't feel used by them. Some people are just rebellious in nature. Everyone has their quirks. They all serve a purpose.

If a politician/party sees enough popular support for serious reform from floating voters then he/she/they can run on that ticket. It is up to us. That's democracy.

It's not enough to just vote. We have to demand leaders and policies to vote for. Before anger turns to dispair. Before fascism starts to take hold. Inflation is on its way. Somebody will fill the void sooner rather than later.

You're planning ahead. You're thinking about this mess and promoting discussion. Thanks.
It is my firm belief that action today is better than action tomorrow.

Now I sound like a politician. Sure, maybe I will run and ruin my life.

I trust I can rely on your vote.

Gav

DeVore

What I'm seeing here is a lot of people saying:


"What they are doing is really wrong and unfair". They being the government.


Ok. here's a news flash: yes it is. Utterly unfair. Now that we are all agreed its unfair can we please get past the logic of the playground. "waaah, dis unfair, me stamp feet".


So, please explain to me in the detail I have explained to you why you think protesting and potentially being used by the rioters is a GOOD idea for US.

Please note my words, it has to be REALISTICALLY GOOD for US. You and Me.

Please dont give me any revolutionary rhetoric... back up your claim that its possible with something akin to logic and prior examples.

DeV.

Guya

Like any major improvement, it can be compared to moving to a nicer house.

In the short term it causes a lot of hassle and stress. Maybe the loss of a few things you thought were important when you had nothing better to think about.
Ultimately it leads to a better quality of life. Better conditions for your family. Health and happiness.


Freedom is not a right. Power is not a right.
Both have been earned. Both are always under attack.

Each time fascism happens it occurs differently. But the principles remain the same.

http://www.rense.com/general37/fascism.htm

Here is part of the page I linked to. It gives some first hand accounts of the formation of fascism.

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic German" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

"How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice - "Resist the beginnings" and "consider the end." But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have changed here before they went as far as they did; they didn't, but they might have. And everyone counts on that might.

"Your "little men," your Nazi friends, were not against National Socialism in principle. Men like me, who were, are the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemoller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing: and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something - but then it was too late."

"Yes," I said.

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn't see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even to talk, alone; you don't want to "go out of your way to make trouble." Why not? - Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows."

......

"Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or, more accurately, what you haven't done ( for that was all that was required of most of us: that we do nothing)."


I hope you have time to read the whole page. It's a fascinating read.

The peaceful need to march so that there is no burning of the Reichstag moment in Ireland. We need to prevent a riot. Not let the idiots run riot.

We live in a society in which our civil liberties are constantly being eroded. There is no one man or party carrying this out. It's the political norm now. We are busy and do nothing to stop it. So it continues.

That's why we should march. Why we should talk. We should act.

Gav


Footnote

The link is primarily to show the first-hand accounts.

Some of the principles on the linked page are not strictly theory so they don't articulate the concept accurately. For example "Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated."
The actual principle at work here is discrimination against the vulnerable, manifested as sexism in the examples studied. Sexism wouldn't be possible to the same extent today because women's groups are very well organised and established compared to 80 years ago. It would undermine power to attack well organised groups in a tangible way.
They must be weakened as a result of the knock-on effects of weakening the vulnerable. The handicapped. The poor. The sick. The immigrated. The worker. The mortgage holder. The tax payer. The individual. You and me. Us.

Galwayguy35

The people who were rioting were idiots and did themselves or what they were protesting about no favours and the protest organisers should have said as much instead of trying to justify it. To be honest i think things are gonna get a lot worse in this country in the next few months cos the useless government we have are looking for 3 billion more in cuts.

Valmont

Kingkong wrote: »

You cant change the system without putting new policticans in there first!

Many people are rightly wondering if new politicians will do anything differently at all. What happens if Labour get in and reverse the public sector pay cuts? I like your idea in theory, devore, but I don't think Ireland has the political talent.

moonpurple

Everyone has a view and forgive me if I share mine.

Peaceful protest is protected in the law as it is part of a democracy. The biggest statue on OConnell street is a barrister who understood the value of huge gatherings to make it clear to elite groups that the silent majority are not always silent,

the monster meetings of oconnell were a central step toward the creation of this democracy

some ladies chained themselves to railings so that women could vote for the first time,Barack obama would not be in office without the peaceful protests in alabama,india would still be british without peaceful protests led by another barrister gandhi,

why was that gate left open in the dail...was it to tempt some hotheads and therefore embarrass the protestors?

that gate is never open...your video above is very helpful and shows that the Gardai were in a position to close that gate

the protest outside the south african embassy, 24 hours for years, helped nelson mandela come out of prison and a new south africa come into existence

the list is endless....peaceful protest prevents riots
peaceful protest is one of the cornerstones of democracy - such as free speech, right to assembly

look to 1939 for the alternative...but then they did not have the benefits of the net in 1939



mile buichos a cairde gael

Galwayguy35

Valmont wrote: »

Many people are rightly wondering if new politicians will do anything differently at all. What happens if Labour get in and reverse the public sector pay cuts? I like your idea in theory, devore, but I don't think Ireland has the political talent.

Labour is kinda sitting on the fence regarding the puplic sector pay cuts because i imagine they are using it as a means to get votes in the next election. But i dont know where they would get the money to reverse them as we are already borrowing money just to finance the public sector. And to be honest im sick of their whinging when they have secure jobs and the rest of us are just hoping day to day that we keep our jobs.

sponsoredwalk

DeVore wrote: »

You wont get it and you will be hijacked and usurped. We've all seen how they walked with the protestors and then "emerged" in black hoodies. You are naive if you think anything else will happen.

Just like the protest yesterday was usurped by those baby eating Marxists :rolleyes:

DeVore wrote: »

So, please explain to me in the detail I have explained to you why you think protesting and potentially being used by the rioters is a GOOD idea for US.

Just like the protest on the 11 May was hijacked by those family hating socialists :rolleyes:

You obviously didn't read the thread "Why do Irish people not protest" even though you posted in it because I've given countless examples as to why protesting works & why protesting has nothing to do with the people who violently hijack protests.

DeVore wrote: »

Ok. here's a news flash: yes it is. Utterly unfair. Now that we are all agreed its unfair can we please get past the logic of the playground. "waaah, dis unfair, me stamp feet".

The logic of the playground, if you so wish to invoke it, is that of a bully taking advantage of people's fear and their refusal to stand up & do something about it. You seem to promote that we take it lying down because it acheives nothing - even though in that thread you never read I gave plenty of examples against this historically ignorant assumption.

DeVore wrote: »

Mike... its self-centred selfish worry. Someone has to worry about us cos no one else is gonna. I like your synopsis better but people need to understand WHY rioting right now is awful and self-defeating.

I agree, rioting will solve nothing, luckily that is not what a protest is about though many people like to confuse the two when it suits them :rolleyes:.

You'll notice where the violence came from yesterday if you read up on it, who pulled out the weapons again?

FTA69

moonpurple wrote: »

some ladies chained themselves to railings so that women could vote for the first time

The same people committed suicide by jumping in front of horses, as well as storming parliaments, breaking windows and attacking the homes of MPs.

the protest outside the south african embassy, 24 hours for years, helped nelson mandela come out of prison and a new south africa come into existence

And is the fact Nelson Mandela was in jail for presiding over an armed organisation that engaged in shootings and bombings lost on you?

DeVore

What do you, or any one else, think is going to happen on Tuesday.

I've detailed exactly what I think COULD happen in detail. Dont give me the "we have to struggle" line. When your balls are caught in a chinese trap, you dont struggle. You ease yourself out and THEN go for the guy who set the trap.

I was in Amnesty for many years. I started the EFF in Ireland and I started Boards in direct response to what I saw as a lack of quality free speech in Ireland, something that I have always been keen on.

But those are solutions you'll note, not mindless protest. They are targeted protests with a real path to a solution mapped out.

What I would like is for people in favour of marching to outline what they think will happen on Tuesday. Paint me a word-picture of what you hope will transpire, the "upside" so to speak.

DeV.

Scofflaw

To paraphrase DeVore - don't tell us what violent protest has achieved in other places and other times - tell us what you expect to achieve here and now.

cordially,
Scofflaw

expectationlost

um the people in greece are protesting the imf as should we, none of lesser of two evils stuff both ff and imf are evil,your grand plan is tell people who don't vote for ff not to vote for ff.

ei.sdraob

expectationlost wrote: »

um the people in greece are protesting the imf as should we, none of lesser of two evils stuff both ff and imf are evil,your grand plan is tell people who don't vote for ff not to vote for ff.

the IMF were invited into Greece after their minister went begging for money
if they don't want the IMF they can tell them to leave


now the question which i would like to see you answer


with the IMF gone, where will the Greeks get the money (that they dont have) to prevent their country from completely collapsing?

please entertain us

expectationlost

ei.sdraob wrote: »

the IMF were invited into Greece after their minister went begging for money
if they don't want the IMF they can tell them to leave


now the question which i would like to see you answer


with the IMF gone, where will the Greeks get the money (that they dont have) to prevent their country from completely collapsing?

please entertain us

i dunno, guess people protesting anywhere, would hope to cause a change in government who even though it might bring in an ever more rightwing one, might cause them to modify some of their policies, and remove some of the people in power who are responsible for a lot of he trouble, even though they'll be replaced by others, it breaks up the long stretch that certain people have been in positions. i think thats something worth doing.

i'd rather that then depending on people who voted ff not to vote ff, any repentant ff voters round here, i've rarely seen one?

ei.sdraob

expectationlost wrote: »

i dunno, guess people protesting anywhere, would hope to cause a change in government who even though it might bring in an ever more rightwing one, might cause them to modify some of their policies, and remove some of the people in power who are responsible for a lot of he trouble, even though they'll be replaced by others, it breaks up the long stretch that certain people have been in positions. i think thats something worth doing.

i'd rather that then depending on people who voted ff not to vote ff, any repentant ff voters round here, i've rarely seen one?

Ok lets say the government in Greece is removed and replaced by new one which tells the IMF to go away

how will they go about getting the 110 billion they need to keep the country ticking over?

DeVore

he answered that with his first two words you quoted.

DeV.

ei.sdraob

DeVore wrote: »

he answered that with his first two words you quoted.

DeV.

which raises a question to this guy

of what exactly (positive) has protesting and burning bankers accomplished?

DeVore

Thats a question for this guy and everyone else who is going out to protest on Tuesday.

DeV.

stupidusername

DeVore wrote: »

he answered that with his first two words you quoted.

DeV.

Just because we don't know what the answer is, doesn't mean there isn't one.

The country is fúcked up, and people are angry over the government doing so little to fix it, it doesn't mean the whole population has to know how economics and politics and everything else works in order to ask for a change to be brought about, something that will help the people that desperately need it.

Another thing is I wish everyone would stop comparing this country to Greece, and others. We are our own country, with our own shít political system, so not everything that does/doesn't work for other countries will/won't work for us.

DeVore

stupidusername wrote: »

Just because we don't know what the answer is, doesn't mean there isn't one.

The country is fúcked up, and people are angry over the government doing so little to fix it, it doesn't mean the whole population has to know how economics and politics and everything else works in order to ask for a change to be brought about, something that will help the people that desperately need it.

Another thing is I wish everyone would stop comparing this country to Greece, and others. We are our own country, with our own shít political system, so not everything that does/doesn't work for other countries will/won't work for us.

If you are going to take actions you should be aware of the situation you find yourself.

You've no clue what you are doing or the consequences. Thats a bad plan.

Normally I wouldnt care how much you mess your life up but unfortunately the rest of us are along for the ride so, I'm trying to educate you about the stuff you dont understand by your own admission.

Hence this thread. Neatly demonstrated, thank you.

DeV.

expectationlost

DeVore wrote: »

Thats a question for this guy and everyone else who is going out to protest on Tuesday.

DeV.

I believe i already answered twice. i don't believe that protesters can disappear the IMF,i never said that which nullifies your questions (and its echoes), I beleive they will protest which may influence modifications, but I have equal doubt in the slim plan to eh "...Right to the motherf*cking wall." sorry what was the plan?
devore, i had a couple of questions for you to seeing you started this thread.

how exactly are you going to screw them to the wall?

DeVore

By the way, the question wasnt "please explain economics" it was "please explain what you think you will achieve in real terms on Tuesday?"

DeV.

ps: Once again, I dont mind the idea of protesting but with these parasites hijacking marches, I feel I would rather NOT lend my presence to them as it going to be WORSE for me then doing nothing.

DeVore

expectationlost wrote: »

I beleive i already answered twice. i don't believe that protesters can disappear the IMF,i never said that which nullifies your questions (and its echoes), I beleive they will protest which may influence modifications, but I have equal doubt in the slim plan to eh "...Right to the motherf*cking wall." sorry what was the plan?
devore, i had a couple of questions for you to seeing you started this thread.

how exactly are you going to screw them to the wall?

There is a huge appetite for a new political movement in Ireland, I am hopeful that a centrist, moderate party will arise who are electable.

The only say we get is in an election, thats right and proper because unlike those violent tossers, I am not arrogant enough to think my opinion should be forced onto anyone else nor should I be allowed to enforce it by violence.

There are three by elections awaiting timetabling (if you want something REAL to protest about, protest about the fact that they have been delayed and delayed for obvious reasons).

Those three by elections can bring this government down at which point its fairly clear that only the hardest of hardcore FF voters will vote for them. Everyone and the dogs in the street know that FF will be all but wiped out.

Thats a far more salutary warning to politicians too, because every politician cares about their job more then anything.



What I'm going to do is irrelevant since I'm not taking risks on your behalf.

And no, you didnt come close to answering the question.

DeV.

gandalf

There is nothing to be gained from this protest tbh and it seems that the people involved do not have any REAL plans on how we get out of this mess. If I am spending more than I earn I make cut backs on that expenditure and suck it up (in fact I have had to do this and will have to do even more over the next few months given my own personal circumstances). I certainly do not go down to the local loan shark and ask for more loans to keep my expenditure to the pre crash levels that I got used to.

At this stage I expect the usual troublemakers to "have a go" on Tuesday and I hope to god they are met with the most brutal response possible from the Gardai.

We as a people have to take responsibility for the mess the country is in and work our way out of it even though most of us have not done anything to create the mess. 2012 will be when we can exact our revenge on our politicians for allowing the mess to be worse in this country.