Why it is in YOUR OWN INTEREST not to strike or protest at this time (mid May 2010).

DeVore

digme wrote: »

I'll add the book to me list for next week.

Do. Its a little dated now but its an incredible eye opener.

Sand I absolutely agree that the long term path to stability is fiscal rectitude. We must put our house in order and we have been bought time to do so.

Rioting now puts us back BEFORE square 1 and ironically makes it a certainty that there will be more PS cuts and harsh ones (or perhaps people think the IMF are all mad about leprechauns and will go easy on us).

We need to return Ireland Inc to profitability. Its not how you and I might want to see our society but thats how they see it and thats how they will judge us.

No argument from me there.


DeV.

DeVore

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Arent you contradicting yourself now?

if the traders know the game is up, no amount of protests (or lack of) will change things now

the EUs answer is to throw more money (at the wolves), when has a debt problem ever been solved with more debt?
theres another protest scheduled in Greece by their unions in a week
the euro returned to its slide against the dollar as money exits


I agree with you that the last thing we need are cameras filming our far left elements going wild
But there is only so long we can continue to put on a show before reality bites
The world seems to have bought all the crap about "austerity" since December, but the reality is that this year is already shaping up to be worse than 2009 in term of finances, the government of course will try to spin things, but how much confidence is left in Ireland? did we buy enough time? are we going down the right track fast enough?

They dont know the game is up because they are afraid of our big brother with a trillion euros coming in to kick their ass if they mess with us.

The perceived chance of us defaulting grew a lot less due to that trillion. Thats not what they want to hear.


Riots increase the perceived chance of us defaulting... putting us back in the game.

DeV.

Zambia

If those are the calibre of the rioters I think there is little to fear.

They look like a pack of posh gits on a college lunch break.

DeVore

Lets play a game.


11 of you have a token each.

I have 10 such tokens.

We will all decide to put in tokens into the middle. The team with the largest tokens in the middle wins. The tokens are then taken from the game. I win in a draw.

The rules are simple:

If you lose you get beaten with a stick about the testicles for an hour. If you dont play you get a lolly. If you play and win you get a ferrari.


It goes back and forth until no one wants to put in any more tokens that round. Then the next round starts.



So, it looks easy, you all put in your 11 tokens and I get a new a new falsetto voice to my singing range. You all get new sets of wheels.


But not so fast, if one of you bails at the last minute... you get a lolly (I get the Ferrari) AND ALL OF YOUR OPPONENTS GET BOLLOCKED.

Next round, you can put your token in and get a Ferrari too, if you are smart.


Can you see where I am going with this? Its a classic game of trust... and the speculators all know that they all know this game.


Hubba hubba hubba... who do you trust....

A riot could spark them ALL shoving their tokens this way because lets face it, Ferraris in the hand is worth more then a lolly if you are SURE everyone is going to vote for a Ferrari for themselves.

If we make it clear we are going down the tubes, thats exactly what they will do.

DeV.

Drumpot

DeVore wrote: »

Do. Its a little dated now but its an incredible eye opener.

Sand I absolutely agree that the long term path to stability is fiscal rectitude. We must put our house in order and we have been bought time to do so.

Rioting now puts us back BEFORE square 1 and ironically makes it a certainty that there will be more PS cuts and harsh ones (or perhaps people think the IMF are all mad about leprechauns and will go easy on us).

We need to return Ireland Inc to profitability. Its not how you and I might want to see our society but thats how they see it and thats how they will judge us.

No argument from me there.


DeV.

Again . . Its all about making "they" happy ?? . .

Im not sure why you wont reply to my posts to be honest, I would love impartial, broad debate and I certainly want to be convinced that we are better off following conventional capitalist wisdom.

I agree in principle with some of what you say , but you dont appear to be able to make concessions that your very argument suggests we follow the same market rules that have gotten us into this mess . .

Or are we slaves to the way "they" want us to run ourselves . . If thats the case it doesnt really matter who we vote for as every party will be under the thumb of "they" . .

Im not a promoter of anarchy , but I certainly dont subscribe to a following of blind faith . . We could do everything "they" want and still end up getting screwed by "they" (or do you think that they will look favourably on us if we concede to their every whim?) . .

You appear to put alot of faith in these people who have absolutely no problem with selling their grannies to improve their profits . . .

DeVore

Zambia232 wrote: »

If those are the calibre of the rioters I think there is little to fear.

They look like a pack of posh gits on a college lunch break.

NGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH

Its not the reality of the situation that counts. Its the PERCEPTION of reality.


Sky news made it sound like they were occupying the Dail ffs, because Murdoch has vested interest in seeing the Euro collapse.

They dont need it to be true. Like my analogy of the duck, they only need it to be CONVINCING ENOUGH TO OTHERS. Then they can speculate.

Fear is a powerful tool to sell insurance with.

DeV.

DeVore

Drumpot wrote: »

Again . . Its all about making "they" happy ?? . .

Im not sure why you wont reply to my posts to be honest, I would love impartial, broad debate and I certainly want to be convinced that we are better off following conventional capitalist wisdom.

I agree in principle with some of what you say , but you dont appear to be able to make concessions that your very argument suggests we follow the same market rules that have gotten us into this mess . .

Or are we slaves to the way "they" want us to run ourselves . . If thats the case it doesnt really matter who we vote for as every party will be under the thumb of "they" . .

Im not a promoter of anarchy , but I certainly dont subscribe to a following of blind faith . . We could do everything "they" want and still end up getting screwed by "they" (or do you think that they will look favourably on us if we concede to their every whim?) . .

You appear to put alot of faith in these people who have absolutely no problem with selling their grannies to improve their profits . . .

Sorry Drumpot, there have been a lot of points to answer:

This is my last and I dedicate it to you, I'm not avoiding your points but you make deep ones that take a lot of explaining.


I am by no means suggesting we continue ad infinitum under this system. In fact, I think we should RADICALLY restructure speculative markets, eradicating many of them.

We need to leash these puppies. And fast.

While thats happening, and I am advocating it happens sooner rather then later, we need to keep cool heads and not cut off our own nose to spite our faces.

Thats all I'm saying.


Now, what are YOU suggesting people do next Tuesday?

DeV.

Rebelheart

DeVore wrote: »

Going out and protesting right now is NOT going to change anything, I'm sorry but do you really think it will? Has it ever before??


But what it will do is bring the dog-pack here en masse.

And why do you assume that would be so bad? Maybe all the powers-that-be in this state deserve to be overthrown given what the bastards have done? Most of these people cannot be thrown out at the next election. The election will only change one shower for another. The system as it currently is will continue under different networks and backslappers. This system needs to be radically overhauled. No political party is offering that.

I don't own anything of substance. I never became one of those sheep who bought substandard overpriced property. I saved my money, and rented through it all. Now I find that the people you are asking me to be nice to until the election are the same people who are interfering with the market to keep property prices much higher than they otherwise would be. I am subsidising all these losers, these parasites. Justice?

The IMF is not such a bad thing as far as I and many others are concerned. There are way too many vested interests in this state which are going against my interests and using my taxes to do so. Disgusting stuff.

Guya

DeVore wrote: »

What we need to be doing now is saying "nothing to see here, move along to someone else, we're gold".

Going out and protesting right now is NOT going to change anything, I'm sorry but do you really think it will? Has it ever before??

DeV.

Don't you mean grey? Typical scared attitude of not wanting to stand out.
If we were gold we would be giving them something positive to look at.

Sitting tight and following other countries' leads has got us into this mess.
It won't get us out.

Where is the brave leadership that will reshape our economy? Innovate our education? Sustain our people? It's sitting tight. Doing nothing. Impotent.

If we continue to rely on outside forces then we will ultimately be doomed to starve once again.

I will join the march next Tuesday. Not because things are that bad but because Ireland could be and should be managed well. That won't happen without public pressure.

Let them eat speculate.

Rebelheart

And are Seán Dunne, Paddy Kelly and all the rest of them still living in their mansions on Shrewsbury Road and such places while we pay for those massive losses?


It's all one-way traffic. Where's the fairplay in the current system? Good riddance to it and the leeches who are propping it up.

DeVore

Rebel, I did exactly the same as you. I'm in precisely the same position except that I sunk my money into building jobs here. So I get it both ways.


What I'm saying is that no one will come out of this well if we go down that road. Justice is not at play here. Justice got taken outside by Special Interests and had its lunch money nicked and got a wedgie too.

We're way past Justice for the moment.


What I'm saying is that the best thing for you and me, and ironically everyone who has been screwed is to not rock the boat RIGHT NOW.

There will be a time for boat rocking, and I will be here rocking it like a mofo, but if you really want the IMF here, you dont know what they will do to us. All of us.

DeV.

DeVore

Guya wrote: »

Don't you mean grey? Typical scared attitude of not wanting to stand out.
If we were gold we would be giving them something positive to look at.

Sitting tight and following other countries' leads has got us into this mess.
It won't get us out.

Where is the brave leadership that will reshape our economy? Innovate our education? Sustain our people? It's sitting tight. Doing nothing. Impotent.

If we continue to rely on outside forces then we will ultimately be doomed to starve once again.

I will join the march next Tuesday. Not because things are that bad but because Ireland could be and should be managed well. That won't happen without public pressure.

Let them eat speculate.

WANT MOAR TING BETTER!!!

HULK SMASH!

DeV.

DeVore

Rebelheart wrote: »

And are Seán Dunne, Paddy Kelly and all the rest of them still living in their mansions on Shrewsbury Road and such places while we pay for those massive losses?


It's all one-way traffic. Where's the fairplay in the current system? Good riddance to it and the leeches who are propping it up.

Again, what has fairplay got to do with this. Fairplay went for a walk a long time ago.


We have a choice next week...

A. protest, riot, and go down the tubes.

B. Hold off for a few weeks or a month or two. Then force an election with those pending by-elections. They cant hold them off for ever.



Please chose, its A or B. You either march or dont.

DeV.

DeVore

I'm going to bed, I'll try and get time tomorrow for this thread but can everyone who answers after this put A or B in their response, because its just that stark a decision.

Protest. Riot. Greece.

or

Bide our time and try to force an election with the pending by-elections... though to be fair, FG/Lab arent going to be able to do anything different. Nama is signed in and everyone knows we need to balance the books.


Please choose the scale of fnckedness you would like.

A. COMPLETELY.

B. MAYBE COMPLETELY BUT < or = A.


We can riot any time we like, I'm suggesting *this* isnt a good time.

DeV.

Drumpot

DeVore wrote: »

Sorry Drumpot, there have been a lot of points to answer:

This is my last and I dedicate it to you, I'm not avoiding your points but you make deep ones that take a lot of explaining.


I am by no means suggesting we continue ad infinitum under this system. In fact, I think we should RADICALLY restructure speculative markets, eradicating many of them.

We need to leash these puppies. And fast.

While thats happening, and I am advocating it happens sooner rather then later, we need to keep cool heads and not cut off our own nose to spite our faces.

Thats all I'm saying.


Now, what are YOU suggesting people do next Tuesday?

DeV.

Thanking you kind sir . .

For a minute I thought "they" were controlling boards.ie . . :eek:

In all fairness, I agree with most of what you say. . I just want people to actually get proactive (not necessarily "physical") in trying to get the right politicians voted in for the right reasons. . .

People need to start understanding that the greater good may actually be beneficial to them, rather then thinking short term "get me the best I can get now" attitude . . .

ei.sdraob

DeVore wrote: »

They dont know the game is up because they are afraid of our big brother with a trillion euros coming in to kick their ass if they mess with us.

The perceived chance of us defaulting grew a lot less due to that trillion. Thats not what they want to hear.


Riots increase the perceived chance of us defaulting... putting us back in the game.

DeV.

there's no such thing as free lunch

this money (when needed and it will be needed) will be partially taken from other EU spending

and more worrying by conjuring money out of thin air


what shocked the markets is that the ECB finally dropped all the pretence of being independent and is now in the same boat as BOE and FED and others when it comes to printing to get out of a hole

in the long term this will mean one thing, inflation

the average sucker on the street doesnt appreciate the scale of what has just happened
wait till down the road they endup with a devalued euro and high inflation
the euro is already falling again

northwest100

IMO, if the government had put some of the fraudsters behind bars there wouldn't be as much anger.

But of course, not 1 single banker will see the inside of a cell.
Instead, he's being given more money to play with..

It's like giving an arsonist a jar of petrol and matches.

DeVore

You know what.... its like the abuse scandals in the sense that even a simple "we're sorry, this is so unfair" would make things a little easier.

DeV.

ednwireland

does anyone wonder why sky news put up the headline "protestors storm dail" ?
do you really think that 10 people having a scrap with a few gardai warranted that, anyone who thinks that was an accidental mis-reporting (well i'm into conspirecy theories here so i'll stop)

people think that we are selling ourselves to the banks and the traders, you know what that happened many years ago i agree all you can do now is sit tight and hold on.

i work in a small company selling software in the uk and its looking ever so slightly rosier now companies are starting to ease on the pursestrings (hope i'm not premature on that one)

as to WWI erm nothing to to with the arch duke, you need to dig a bit deeper on that one devore

DeVore

i'm a demagogue, not an historian goddammit!!


I was using it as an example of singluar events that can trigger big movements. Chaos theory in simple form I guess.

DeV.

loldog

The Communist Party in Greece has always had a relatively strong following, and were a major force of resistance to the Nazi occupation. Ireland has no such Communist heritage, and it's not likely that we would ever see the Far Left getting as many people out on the streets as the Greek Communists can. The SWP has merely been a long running joke in Ireland, like something from the Life of Brian.

.

DeVore

Did Sky News sound funny to you the other day???


They cant achieve anything but they can play into the hands of spin masters and create a perception of instability.


Good job SWP or whatever you are calling yourselves today! I never cared about them before because they were simply a bunch of nancyboy, wannabee revolutionaries with no dicks and daddys trustfund, but now we can ill afford their self centred "campaigning".

DeV.

amacachi

Anyone receiving any kind of income from the state, you are an idiot if you go out and support "protests". Yes more cuts are inevitable, it's not nice to hear, but it's true. I'm dependent at the moment, and it will be really annoying taking a cut, but I'll manage one way or another. If the cuts aren't made soon, or we go out and wreck the gaff, the cuts will be a lot bigger. I won't be able to pay my debts and will be out of college. Think about how it'll affect you.
"Protesting" would be completely self-defeating, and I think, well, more hope, that this country wouldn't be as stupid as Greece to do so. Prove me right ffs!

amacachi

DeVore wrote: »

Did Sky News sound funny to you the other day???


They cant achieve anything but they can play into the hands of spin masters and create a perception of instability.


Good job SWP or whatever you are calling yourselves today! I never cared about them before because they were simply a bunch of nancyboy, wannabee revolutionaries with no dicks and daddys trustfund, but now we can ill afford their self centred "campaigning".

DeV.

Sky and the rest of Murdoch's empire will do whatever suits him and whatever he has put his pot of gold into. Hopefully we won't give them anything to work with.

Zambia

DeVore wrote: »

NGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH

Its not the reality of the situation that counts. Its the PERCEPTION of reality.


Sky news made it sound like they were occupying the Dail ffs, because Murdoch has vested interest in seeing the Euro collapse.

They dont need it to be true. Like my analogy of the duck, they only need it to be CONVINCING ENOUGH TO OTHERS. Then they can speculate.

Fear is a powerful tool to sell insurance with.

DeV.

I listen to the BBC world service, the greek riots made news if I was not a boards poster I would never have known Dublin had any problem.

I do get where your coming from Dev I do agree nothing can be gained from any protest or mass action in the next 8-12 weeks.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ei.sdraob

@DeVore

i wonder how many traders and bankers are reading this article today

who would want to invest in ireland after reading this?

Drumpot

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Obviously, capitalism can be viewed in differant ways . . I dont like it . .

I find it hard to justify how its acceptable for stockholders/speculators to force countries to their knees . . The issue of whether or not countries deserve pain is not really that important . . The very fact that people benefit from the misery of others is quite repulsive . . In principle, Its really no different to starting wars in countries for financial reasons, just that its financial terrorism . .


Humans just cannot be trusted, therefore capitalism is a system destined to let us down over and over again. Any system that puts the needs/desires of the few ahead of the many is just plain wrong . . I dont believe we have to become an absolute socialist state either, I just believe in better . .

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Drumpot

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I agree, mistakes have been made and Greece deserves pain, but I dont agree that it should be gamblers that decide the fate of a country . .

No matter what way you look at it, no matter how we have gotten to where we are, the marketing system currently in place is like an intangible dictator ruling over countries . .

If we decided we didnt really want to be a part of it, what alternatives do we have ? We are simply slaves to a system that forces us to live by its rules, win or lose. We should not be looking to embrace it wholeheartedly, we should be looking for ways to get us out of this mess and in the longer term, try to run ourselves in a way that's not as reliant on the dictators.

Saying "well we were happy when the times were good" doesn't actually mean we should just stick with it ! If anything, we should be asking more questions of it instead of blindly following it . .

I have said this before, we could take every measure possible to try to appease these dictators and they may still decide to shaft us . . If they had their way, none of us would be getting paid for anything ..