Why it is in YOUR OWN INTEREST not to strike or protest at this time (mid May 2010).

Scofflaw

Good pics - very clear. I have to say I enjoy the contrast between claims of State repression and protesters posting pictures of the protests on the net.

amused,
Scofflaw

AnimalRights

Scofflaw wrote: »

Good pics - very clear. I have to say I enjoy the contrast between claims of State repression and protesters posting pictures of the protests on the net.

amused,
Scofflaw

You're amused too easily.

Of course protesters will post pictures, Rodney King springs to mind.
One of the reasons why the Gardai have been tactful is that they know they will be caught on film/Camera, and vice versa at a lot of protests when the English police or the RUC film protesters in their own locations, it works both ways.

DeVore

I think what he means is that the protestors are posting pics and vids that are contradicting their political masters spin.

DeV.

sponsoredwalk

Scofflaw wrote: »

Good pics - very clear. I have to say I enjoy the contrast between claims of State repression and protesters posting pictures of the protests on the net.

This post is exemplar of the level of conversation I've seen in this thread.

Clear innuendo in the form of incomplete information.

If we use our linguistic abilities for a second longer than the fleeting glance a post like the above aims to target we'd realise the logical inconsistency of this post.

The innuendo of the poster here is that the state is oppressing freedom of speech when the pictures have nothing to do with this.

But that doesn't stop him/her from extrapolating :rolleyes:

Tell me how a picture of guards on horses or the recent protests have anything to do with freedom of speech and (more explicitly to your claim) how it has anything to do with a protestor posting a picture on the net?

Scofflaw

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

This post is exemplar of the level of conversation I've seen in this thread.

Clear innuendo in the form of incomplete information.

If we use our linguistic abilities for a second longer than the fleeting glance a post like the above aims to target we'd realise the logical inconsistency of this post.

The innuendo of the poster here is that the state is oppressing freedom of speech when the pictures have nothing to do with this.

But that doesn't stop him/her from extrapolating :rolleyes:

Tell me how a picture of guards on horses or the recent protests have anything to do with freedom of speech and (more explicitly to your claim) how it has anything to do with a protestor posting a picture on the net?

I'm just pointing out that in a genuinely repressive state you wouldn't dream of posting pictures of your fellow protesters on a publicly accessible website - or see any point in being able to identify individual Gardai. I'm kind of impressed that such a thing didn't even occur to you as being my point.

still amused,
Scofflaw

sponsoredwalk

Scofflaw wrote: »

still amused,
Scofflaw

I hope so because it might have you falling over with laughter to realise I knew what you were implying

The absolutely hilarious part of this is that there has been no mention of repression of freedom of speech :pac:

I think somebody is responding to something that hasn't been raised :rolleyes:

Why?

My bet is that 'anti-capitalist bloc' is the phrase that tipped you off into this frame of mind to go off repsonding to claims nobody has raised, I could be wrong though. It doesn't change the fact that it is irrelevant to the situation unless it it being used for some derrogatory connotation with regard to the actual discussion.

I repeat myself;

Tell me how a picture of guards on horses or the recent protests have anything to do with freedom of speech and (more explicitly to your claim) how it has anything to do with a protestor posting a picture on the net?

danman

I heard the girl with fake blood coming out of her nose,
on newstalk this afternoon.
It's a bit disingenous to do this at a protest like this.

What was she hoping to achieve?
International photographers to take her picure and publishing them without realising that it was fake?

It sums up the individual self interest that seems to me to prevail at these protests.
Between bitpart political parties trying to get publicity to individuals trying to get their faces in the paper.

There is no direction to these protests.
The SWP claim they are organising them.
The UNITE union claim they are organising it.
Right to Work claim it's them.
An organisation for a uturn on social welfare cuts for the youth.
Eirigi.
And on and on.

Who is this protest representing?
It seems to me that it's simply a group of groups that just like protests.

I even heard today that one of the groups had transported protesters down from NI. Almost professional protesters.

Then, he protesters on here don't understand why the majority of people are against this type of protest.

Scofflaw

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

I hope so because it might have you falling over with laughter to realise I knew what you were implying

The absolutely hilarious part of this is that there has been no mention of repression of freedom of speech :pac:

I think somebody is responding to something that hasn't been raised :rolleyes:

Why?

My bet is that 'anti-capitalist bloc' is the phrase that tipped you off into this frame of mind to go off repsonding to claims nobody has raised, I could be wrong though. It doesn't change the fact that it is irrelevant to the situation unless it it being used for some derrogatory connotation with regard to the actual discussion.

I repeat myself;

Tell me how a picture of guards on horses or the recent protests have anything to do with freedom of speech and (more explicitly to your claim) how it has anything to do with a protestor posting a picture on the net?

Nothing at all - after all, I haven't made any such claim. So, you're right that "somebody is responding to something that hasn't been raised", but you're pointing your finger the wrong way.

Perhaps you're still unsure what "repressive state" would actually mean? I'm not talking about freedom of speech here.

cordially,
Scofflaw

sponsoredwalk

Scofflaw wrote: »

Perhaps you're still unsure what "repressive state" would actually mean? I'm not talking about freedom of speech here.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Good pics - very clear. I have to say I enjoy the contrast between claims of State repression and protesters posting pictures of the protests on the net.

I'm honestly not trying to point fingers at anybody, just their arguments. I find it very hard to read this quote & not think you're implying that the protesters venting their speech freely online about their repressive government is a contradiction because they actually have the freedom to do so in the first place(I still can't do it). That is the problem with small statements, they can be interpreted widely, one would expect clarity in this room compared to AH and the borderline racism you read.

danman wrote: »

What was she hoping to achieve?
International photographers to take her picure and publishing them without realising that it was fake?

Yes, just like these anarchists misleadingly wanted the press to tell all the world that they had been killed.

As for who is claiming they are organizing the protests, it might interest you to note that one of every party was there last night, all together. The right-to-work people were making most of the points but I didn't hear anybody claiming superiority. As for who they are representing, well obviously they represent themselves (don't you represent yourself when you post online or leave the house?) but it's not about who they are, it's about the points they make & I think that's what most people went to hear, it's certainly what I want to hear. The cult of personality is nothing but a waste of time.

danman

So the Right to Work organisation had the most to say last night?

This is the group that are protesting to get the government to create jobs?
Whose spoksman admitted on Newstalk breakfast yesterday, that even though he wants jobs, he didn't bother trying to get one over the past 12 years, when we had virtual full employment.
But he wants a job, now we're in a recession?

Forgive me if I can't take it all very seriously.

Liam Byrne

digme wrote: »

Wipe your ass with Euro's as soon they will be worthless.

That'll enable most people to pay off their mortgages, and the billions of them that FF are throwing away will amount to zero, too!

Maybe then we can start from scratch and build a fair, non-profit-hungry society ?

As for the credibility issues; I can see where DeVore is coming from (and I'm praying that this isn't a last-ditch FF tactic to shut people up) but I have one question :

Surely the damage that FF have done to this country has killed off any credibility anyways ?

Scofflaw

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

I'm honestly not trying to point fingers at anybody, just their arguments. I find it very hard to read this quote & not think you're implying that the protesters venting their speech freely online about their repressive government is a contradiction because they actually have the freedom to do so in the first place(I still can't do it). That is the problem with small statements, they can be interpreted widely, one would expect clarity in this room compared to AH and the borderline racism you read.

Ah well - no, I'm really referring to the view that the state is repressive, which has been expressed on these threads, if not necessarily by yourself. The contrast that strikes me is that while there are claims, for example, that anarchists might choose to conceal their faces because they might 'face discrimination' if identified, the protesters themselves have no hesitation posting pictures of themselves online on publicly accessible websites.

That suggests that the protesters are entirely, indeed thoughtlessly, confident that they will not in fact face any sort of discrimination if identified - certainly that they won't face any sort of action by the so-called 'repressive' state. On the contrary, the protesters know that it is the police who need to be wary of such pictures, because they can and will be used against them in a court of law if necessary.

Before any such opinion is imputed to me, I'm not suggesting that this is a bad thing - I'm just pointing out that it is incongruent with the mindset and beliefs of many of the protesters themselves.

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Yes, just like these anarchists misleadingly wanted the press to tell all the world that they had been killed.

As for who is claiming they are organizing the protests, it might interest you to note that one of every party was there last night, all together. The right-to-work people were making most of the points but I didn't hear anybody claiming superiority. As for who they are representing, well obviously they represent themselves (don't you represent yourself when you post online or leave the house?) but it's not about who they are, it's about the points they make & I think that's what most people went to hear, it's certainly what I want to hear. The cult of personality is nothing but a waste of time.

The marches seem to be accepted as being organised by Right To Work:

WSM wrote:

In the context of previously reported Gardai violence against bank bail out protests the WSM decided to mobilise for the Right to Work protest on May 18th and published a call for an "anti-capitalist block" on the demonstration, to assemble on Stephen's Green, a few hundred metres away from the Dail and a half an hour earlier than the scheduled time for the RTW march. This was done for a couple of reasons - firstly because the announced starting point for the RTW march was the Dail, which was also the march's destination. Thus it seemed that a static rally with speeches from notables was to be the order of the day and these are normally felt to be fairly grim and turgid affairs to anyone who has attended a few. Secondly because the WSM wanted to differentiate itself from the SWP-controlled RTW event and create an alternative pole of attraction for radicals.

The Right To Work campaign is an initiative of the Socialist Workers Party, an initiative in which some oppositional politicans, a few trade union leaders and a liberal media commentator or two are happy to be given a platform.

The Right to Work campaign itself certainly appears at first sight to be somewhat eclectic:

SWP wrote:

A number of key trade unionists have joined community activists and others to establish a Right to Work Campaign. These forces have called a protest on the Dail for May 11th (click here for details) to protest at the ban bail-out and are to hold a founding conference on May 22nd. The initiative is backed by the Ireland region of UNITE, as well as a number of councillors.

Of course the regional secretary of UNITE is Jimmy Kelly, who is a long-standing member of the SWP, as is Cllr Richard Boyd Barret of People Before Profit, so perhaps it's not quite as eclectic as it looks on the surface - more another example of the SWP's tendency to wear a thousand faces (nearly one per member). One the whole, I would say that the WSM have called it right there - "an initiative of the Socialist Workers Party".

Anyway, it's quite clear that these marches are identified with specific groups, primarily the SWP, and claims that they are some kind of spontaneous grassroots effort are disingenuous. I'm sure that's what people hope they'll become, but that's for another day, one which may or may not come.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Mountainsandh

DeVore wrote: »

Its an incontravertible argument against your claim that the government pay more attention to you because you protest.


DeV.

-

DeV, the people elected Sarkozy because they were sick of apathetic/undecisive politicians, I am absolutely not advocating that a government should refrain from taking decisions, tough ones on occasion.

Protesting can re-establish a dialogue between the government and the people, hopefully also spur budding politicians to come forward, and possibly trigger other good changes.

We're in dire need of a bit of that right here, right now.

But if you are not going to consider these as "plausible, credible upsides" to a protest, well we are going nowhere with this discussion (simply don't have the time or inclination to write a 3 page essay on how protests changed history/nations/affected economies throughout the world).

Glad to see last night's protest was more peaceful than the previous.

Guya

danman wrote: »

So the Right to Work organisation had the most to say last night?

This is the group that are protesting to get the government to create jobs?
Whose spoksman admitted on Newstalk breakfast yesterday, that even though he wants jobs, he didn't bother trying to get one over the past 12 years, when we had virtual full employment.
But he wants a job, now we're in a recession?

Forgive me if I can't take it all very seriously.

Good point Dan. A lot of the people marching just like to go out an challenge authority regardless of the situation.

I was marching because the bail-out of banks is ill thought out and scandalously wasteful. There are more normals getting onto the streets despite media campaigns to scare people away.

The economist Nuriel Roubini is the man the IMF are calling The Prophet these days. They had been calling him Dr Doom when he accurately predicted this mess in 2006/7. He does not see any logic in bailing out the banks and proposes breaking up entities which are too big to fail. Not propping them up. He says that because they are too big to fail they are also too big to save in a way beneficial to Irish society and also too complicated to manage effectively.

Fear of a few rebels without a cause should not cloud the issue but unfortunately it does.

Mountainsandh

Scofflaw wrote: »

claims that they are some kind of spontaneous grassroots effort are disingenuous. I'm sure that's what people hope they'll become, but that's for another day, one which may or may not come.

cordially,
Scofflaw

In my experience most protests start this way, after all you do need some organisation to ... well, organise them in the first place. As you so rightly said, I am one of those hoping they would become less denominational, that would allow for new people to step forward, rather than people like me having to follow a group/party I might not wholeheartedly adhere to.
I tend to like having a choice of declinations when it comes to leaning towards one particular group/party, within reason of course.

Mountainsandh

AnimalRights wrote: »

I'm not wading thru this monstroisty of a post but will instead link to a small conversation from both sides to 1 of my pics.

http://pix.ie/PunkRock/1680830?#Comment518150

BTW full set here
http://pix.ie/punkrock/album/376936

Great pics Animalrights, from a purely journalistic photography point of view my favourite is http://pix.ie/punkrock/1680841/size/800 .

(don't approve of the girl's "look at me" nose job either :mad:)

johnnyskeleton

Your argument presupposes that soverign default/IMF intervention is a bad thing.

And sure, it almost certainly is the worst thing currently looming on the horizon.

But there is something far worse that is harder to see - this is not the first time we have lain back and taken it. Nor, if we do that now, will it be the last.

Not that I'm advocating protesting per se, but I'm am saying that allowing the country to limp through this crisis and emerge at the other end with the same dysfunctional political dualism at the end of it is probably worse than, say, 5-10 years of economic doldrums.

johnnyskeleton

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

It's funny that the only video on this page was totally focused on the few protesters at the very front of the walk.

Here is what happened afterwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51svKk_0FEY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51svKk_0FEY

About 2:50 into that video is jedward meets socialist revolutionary.

I laughed.

Scofflaw

Mountainsandh wrote: »

In my experience most protests start this way, after all you do need some organisation to ... well, organise them in the first place. As you so rightly said, I am one of those hoping they would become less denominational, that would allow for new people to step forward, rather than people like me having to follow a group/party I might not wholeheartedly adhere to.
I tend to like having a choice of declinations when it comes to leaning towards one particular group/party, within reason of course.

Entirely reasonable - still, at the moment, the protests are very much a SWP thing, and I find it slightly odd that anyone would claim otherwise, although I appreciate that perhaps the hope of the protest growing rather relies on it not being associated with the SWP. From that point of view, as well as nearly all others, the 'scuffling' with the Gardai is counter-productive.

cordially,
Scofflaw

DeVore

Anyone reading the Times front page today??

Germany banning speculators....


You heard it here first (about 3 frackin days ago )


DeV.

jacaranda

Germany can't ban the "right" to speculate, except within its own borders. The capital markets operate worldwide and whether or not traders can trade in currencies physically within Germany seems irrelevant to the fact that they will continue to trade.

Its funny how the German chancellor didn't seem to object when all was going well, and is only now stomping her little jackboots because she doesn't like the way things look. Instinctively her attitude is to shoot the messenger, although one has a sneaking sympathy for her as to fix the problem seems impossible.

Re the marchers, no one is denying they already have the right to work. What they, presumably, mean by "the right to work" is the "demand for someone else to give me a job".

Sometimes I consider that many people in this country have a remarkably babyish attitude to many issues.

gandalf

jacaranda wrote: »

Re the marchers, no one is denying they already have the right to work. What they, presumably, mean by "the right to work" is the "demand for someone else to give me a job".

I think you can simplify that even more. Its seems to be "the right for people to give me stuff" protest.

Sometimes I consider that many people in this country have a remarkably babyish attitude to many issues.

I think the problem is a lot of people are missing a sense of personal responsibility for things. This attitude has permeated into our organisations, politics and general life. Blame everyone else for our problems except ourselves and god forbid we have to come up with a fix or solution.

The last time I jumped up and down and shouted "its not fair" was when I was a child.

Banned Account

To the original question, I think it's not in my interests to protest as I really don't know enough about how to go about fixing the problem. Whilst I am not saying that I agree with all that is being done, in absence of a credible alternative, I can't go so far as saying that it is the wrong thing.

Do I believe that the current Government know how to fix it? No, not really. Do I believe that the opposition do? No, not really either - we have been having these same issues worldwide for the past 100 years and haven't fixed it yet. We have tried dictatorship, communism, capitalism hell, the Greeks even tried Dali-ism, we are still back where we started.

So when, I think I have something to contribute, when I have something to protest 'for' and not just 'against' I'll paint myself a big old banner and put on a pair of comfortable shoes. In the meantime, I'll just read and talk and try to formulate my own opinions.

jacaranda

Fitzcaraldo wrote: »

Do I believe that the current Government know how to fix it? No, not really. Do I believe that the opposition do? No, not really either - we have been having these same issues worldwide for the past 100 years and haven't fixed it yet. We have tried dictatorship, communism, capitalism hell, the Greeks even tried Dali-ism, we are still back where we started.

There are only two forms of government of which I'd approve.

Firstly, Democracy is the only form of government to which I subscribe, and it was Churchill who said that "Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

The problem with our system is that we seem to have turned democracy almost on its head, with the politicians forgetting they are elected to represent us, and with a higher power ( the EU) where most of the decision making is either so far removed from the people or taken by enelected officials, that our particular form of democracy is so diluted to be almost useless.

Secondly, the only other form of government which is workable is a fascist one party state run by myself.

gandalf

jacaranda wrote: »

Secondly, the only other form of government which is workable is a fascist one party state run by myself.

Dibs on head of Secret Police position

The problem with Irish Politics is that our members of Parliament are just jumped up Councillors. So far from doing what is right for the country as a whole they are making decisions based on local issues which in some cases is detrimental to best progress for the country. Until we address this we are going to have ineffectual governance in this country.

I have said before my preference is for a reduced number of TD's, a total list system and more decision making powers for our councils along with full time councillors.

jacaranda

deadtiger wrote: »

Dibs on head of Secret Police position

The problem with Irish Politics is that our members of Parliament are just jumped up Councillors. So far from doing what is right for the country as a whole they are making decisions based on local issues which in some cases is detrimental to best progress for the country. Until we address this we are going to have ineffectual governance in this country.

I have said before my preference is for a reduced number of TD's, a total list system and more decision making powers for our councils along with full time councillors.

While many might agree, we are not in a position to address it, as usually we just sit back and wait for other to "address" things.

Certainly, if we ar waiting for politicians to solve it, then it's probably a fair judgement to say that we'll be waiting a very long time, with no expectation of any action.

Guya

deadtiger wrote: »

I think you can simplify that even more. Its seems to be "the right for people to give me stuff" protest.



I think the problem is a lot of people are missing a sense of personal responsibility for things. This attitude has permeated into our organisations, politics and general life. Blame everyone else for our problems except ourselves and god forbid we have to come up with a fix or solution.

The last time I jumped up and down and shouted "its not fair" was when I was a child.

I agree with this point but I don't see how not demonstrating shows a personal responsibility for things. Especially in political terms.

Deadtiger - "I have said before my preference is for a reduced number of TD's, a total list system and more decision making powers for our councils along with full time councillors."

I completely agree. I'm a big fan of the list system. The fear of local government brought about by the CDB is older than the state itself. However, I don't think these will ever come up for discussion unless there are demonstrations in their favour.

Right now we are like Europe in '38. All of us, not just Ireland. Bailouts are the papers that guarantee economic peace for our time. Entertaining gamblers never ends well. We've given them billions and they continue to beg.

anymore

deadtiger wrote: »

Dibs on head of Secret Police position

The problem with Irish Politics is that our members of Parliament are just jumped up Councillors. So far from doing what is right for the country as a whole they are making decisions based on local issues which in some cases is detrimental to best progress for the country. Until we address this we are going to have ineffectual governance in this country.

I have said before my preference is for a reduced number of TD's, a total list system and more decision making powers for our councils along with full time councillors.

I can hardly believe anyone, other than politicians, want councillors to be full time ! :eek:
The very worst traits in our political system are all represented at Local Government level.

gandalf

Guya wrote: »

I agree with this point but I don't see how not demonstrating shows a personal responsibility for things. Especially in political terms.

I have no problem with demonstrating per say. I have been out on marches but they have had clear objectives. The current demonstrations really do not have this. If you look at the groups involved and the speakers they have talking they are all over the place. And even worse some of the people that are leading them do not do them any favours with regard to credibility at all.

I completely agree. I'm a big fan of the list system. The fear of local government brought about by the CDB is older than the state itself. However, I don't think these will ever come up for discussion unless there are demonstrations in their favour.

Not sure what you mean by CDB. I agree that those in power will not change the system without pressure from the public to do so, as many have said already "Turkeys won't vote for Christmas".

Right now we are like Europe in '38. All of us, not just Ireland. Bailouts are the papers that guarantee economic peace for our time. Entertaining gamblers never ends well. We've given them billions and they continue to beg.

Well I think you are being over dramatic with the comparison with 1938 (in fact you are very close to pulling a Godwins Law moment )

Unfortunately we have been left in a position where if the powers that be didn't intervene the whole system would have ground to a halt and then we would have been in a world of pain. The problem is that some banks have been saved that really should have been allowed to sink, ones that either did not effect the majority or were too small to warrant saving.

gandalf

anymore wrote: »

I can hardly believe anyone, other than politicians, want councillors to be full time ! :eek:
The very worst traits in our political system are all represented at Local Government level.

The problem is to be re-elected in the current system they have to. They have to attend funerals, they have to be seen to facilitate the local GAA team and the list goes on.

I remember my mother canvassing Seamus Brennan for a Lollipop lady for my sisters primary school years ago.That is something that a National Politician should not have to deal with. Their job should be forming national strategy and plans for the running of the country not to ensure that a few school girls cross a local road safely, that should be the responsibility of councillors.