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Why it is in YOUR OWN INTEREST not to strike or protest at this time (mid May 2010).

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Comments

  • #92
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,702 ✭✭✭squod


    Yeah, let the election ''gamble'' pay off in a couple of years. That horse isn't running yet and the the race hasn't even been called. What do you suggest we do in the mean time.
    Continue to be ridden?


  • #93
    northwest100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 171 ✭✭northwest100


    donegalfella is suffering from stockholm syndrome, he thinks people are to blame for all the debt that's been created.

    Either that or he believes every individual in Greece and Ireland had an economic advisor telling them how financial markets and banks work.

    Greek AND Irish governments were irresponsible and corrupt, absolutely..nobody could argue with this.

    Greek and other EU governments had to get the money to give PS employees from somewhere, didn't they?

    Let's not forget so easily that the same money ended up in private sector also..this should be acknowledged.

    So where did it come from, donegalfella?

    Where does the money come from?

    When you can answer this, when you know how it's created out of thin air, then you see where the core problem is...

    Until you identify the source of a problem, you'll never understand or fix it.

    You continually blaming the overall population for the financial problems is both ill-informed and misleading.


  • #94
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    In short all I have to parrot is this:

    Demonstrations: Good.

    Riots: Bad.

    There's a world of difference between being a Politically Active Country and a Politically Unstable one.

    I don't think I've always been clear in the past. I always did want to see more Activism in Irish Society. But if it meant trying to bust into the Dail and take over the Asylum, its not what I meant.

    Just keep your elected leadership in check and remind them that they won't stay elected if they Fcuk up. Far too often they have been re-elected though and far too often I've been baffled by the outcome.

    It's been surely frustrating but if you're going to storm the Dail with anything it should be Words; not Weapons.

    If you want to protest on Tuesday stay clear of the Government buildingL Protest to your fellow countrymen; hold your picket up on the street corners. Get the message out to the Voter; the Voted doesn't care.


  • #95
    northwest100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 171 ✭✭northwest100


    I'm not advocating a riot just because i'm against the bailout of banks.

    No plans to turn up at the event..but we really do need to start recognising the core of our problems.

    Learn how money is created, that's a good start.

    Probably economics should replace religion as a compulsory school subject.


  • #96
    astrofool
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,519 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    DeVore wrote: »
    The greeks have achieved nothing either, except to hand their finances over to the IMF by proxy.


    Oh, and immeasurably lengthen the recovery period for themselves.





    And kill three people.


    DeV.

    Wasn't it 4 people, if you include the pregnant woman's baby? (though that may be a subject for humanities).


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  • #97
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #98
    northwest100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 171 ✭✭northwest100


    You haven't answered my question.

    Where does money come from?

    Let's say you're a primary school teacher and you leave the class unattended with access to sweets and fizzy drinks.

    If some of those kids become hyperactive and destroy the classroom, whos fault is it?

    I think you're really undecided, donegalfella.

    When arguing about the positive nature of libertarianism you blame government for all the problems we have.

    When arguing about the problems we have, you will blame overall population.

    I'm confused where you stand, maybe you don't even know yourself.


  • #99
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #100
    MementoMori
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,492 ✭✭✭MementoMori


    Very well put OP.

    On a related point a major issue I would have with the recent demonstrations/protests is that in the vast majority of cases its just people shouting and moaning without even remotely putting forward any sort of realistic alternative.

    Maybe I haven't been paying attention but in all of the recent protests/demonstrations can anyone remember any sort of feasible alternatives being put forward by the people protesting?

    "Sound and fury signifying nothing"


  • #101
    northwest100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 171 ✭✭northwest100


    donegalfella wrote:
    This post has been deleted.

    For the analogy, yes, because children don't know any better.
    I would argue the teacher was to blame, if it was your child, wouldn't you?
    And for the current financial problems, it's justified to blame government and banks collectively.
    Banks are in no way innocent for the current mess we're in when you look at fractional reserve banking.

    Fractional-reserve banking is the banking practice in which banks keep only a fraction of their deposits in reserve (as cash and other highly liquid assets) and lend out the remainder, while maintaining the simultaneous obligation to redeem all these deposits upon demand.

    Fractional reserve banking necessarily occurs when banks lend out any fraction of the funds received from deposit accounts, and is practiced by all modern commercial banks.

    By its nature, the practice of fractional reserve banking expands the money supply (cash and demand deposits) beyond what it would otherwise be. Because of the prevalence of fractional reserve banking, the broad money supply of most countries is a multiple larger than the amount of base money created by the country's central bank.

    Banks are who gave everyone the illusion of wealth.
    Many people in the world don't understand how banks or financial markets work yet you expect them to.

    Sorry, but can't agree with this at all.
    For me, banks and politicians are to blame because they should know better.
    I'm a libertarian because I don't want the government having control over the economy. I don't want them borrowing billions in my and my daughter's names, and telling us that we have a "duty" to pay it back.
    I personally have zero personal debt. Not even €0.01 on a credit card. Why should I pay back debts not incurred by me?

    OK, people vote for their politician..but politicians are some of the most dishonest people you could ever meet.

    I've no debts either and I don't believe you should pay anything, but then I'm not the one advocating a bailout either.

    I've also argued I do not want the IMF in this country, but you think it's a good idea.


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  • #102
    20Cent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭20Cent


    DeVore wrote: »
    Again, what has fairplay got to do with this. Fairplay went for a walk a long time ago.


    We have a choice next week...

    A. protest, riot, and go down the tubes.

    B. Hold off for a few weeks or a month or two. Then force an election with those pending by-elections. They cant hold them off for ever.



    Please chose, its A or B. You either march or dont.

    DeV.

    There is a choice C

    A large peaceful protest.
    Thats the one I'm going for.
    Can't wait around for two years.

    Great OP but you ask what has protest ever achieved. Well pretty much every right we have thanks. Countries are run for the citizens not speculators or banks. If people had spoken up earlier then we mightn't be in this mess. I don't expect it to have immediate change but it will make them think twice before screwing us over again.
    I know people are put off by the SWP flags etc but just because they are there doesn't mean you shouldn't as well.


  • #103
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Drumpot wrote: »
    I agree, mistakes have been made and Greece deserves pain, but I dont agree that it should be gamblers that decide the fate of a country . .

    Like @df said they are part of the system (like IMF) to remind people and countries to not go on a tanget
    The Greeks went on mad welfare and PS splurge in last decade with Olympics thrown on top, all paid for with debt
    The people (and the governments they elect) of greece and this country have show an inability of living with their means
    I understand taking on debt to build a motorway or broadband system, i dont understand taking on debt to pay salaries

    northwest100 wrote: »
    donegalfella is suffering from stockholm syndrome, he thinks people are to blame for all the debt that's been created.

    Either that or he believes every individual in Greece and Ireland had an economic advisor telling them how financial markets and banks work.

    Greek AND Irish governments were irresponsible and corrupt, absolutely..nobody could argue with this.

    yes and who elected these governments?

    last i checked we live in a democracy
    the people are guilty of voting in these fools over and over

    "People Get The Government They Deserve"


  • #104
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #105
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    speaking of "stockholm syndrome"

    @df is not the one advocating more state shafting


    what is it with you Statists and loving the stick :D


  • #106
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    That's the price of democracy - it's a "for richer, for poorer" thing. If you didn't do enough to persuade people not to get themselves into debt that you'd have to bail out, that's unfortunate for you.

    regards,
    Scofflaw


  • #107
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    That's the price of democracy - it's a "for richer, for poorer" thing. If you didn't do enough to persuade people not to get themselves into debt that you'd have to bail out, that's unfortunate for you.

    regards,
    Scofflaw

    Unfortunately anyone who tried to "persuade" people

    was told to go an commit suicide by our ex Prime Cute Whoor


  • #108
    northwest100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 171 ✭✭northwest100


    ei.sdraob wrote:
    yes and who elected these governments?

    last i checked we live in a democracy
    the people are guilty of voting in these fools over and over

    "People Get The Government They Deserve"

    I didn't vote for FF and i'm not sure if DF did either.

    However, we'll all be expected to pay for the debt they're creating on behalf of their buddies in the banking system.
    donegalfella wrote:
    This post has been deleted.

    So it's not the job of a banker to assess if a person can pay a €400,000 loan back?

    The banker has no responsibility? :D i don't know...

    If I had €400,000 to loan, i'd be quite sure whoever I was lending it to could give it back, wouldn't you?

    But the figure never existed in reality so it's very easy to overlook.

    When the borrower can't pay the money back, it's the borrowers problem...but the banker didn't have that money to begin with, did he?

    So when all borrowers can't pay back now it's everyone's problem.

    What kind of competent person lends €400,000 of imaginary money to a person he knows can't pay back?

    You say it's BS excuse, donegalfella, yet you're unable to explain how money is created.

    The whole banking system is BS.


  • #109
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #110
    northwest100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 171 ✭✭northwest100


    donegalfella wrote:
    This post has been deleted.

    I don't assume all of society to understand how banking methods work.

    People are not as intelligent as you'd like them to be, that's something you don't seem to realise.

    Not everyone thinks like you do, not everyone will be as educated as you are with regard to money.

    However, a banker.. someone who most of society regard to be an educated man, someone we regard to be intelligent should know how to run a business sufficiently.

    If a banker has a customer, (an uneducated man with regard to money creation) who wants a loan.

    It's up to the banker to assess whether that customer is capable of paying back his loan in the long term.

    If the banker knows the customer can't pay the loan back in adequate time, he doesn't give it.

    Because if all the customers can't pay back the imaginary money that the banker creates, the bank goes bust, he must know this.

    You're saying it's solely customers fault? :D

    In your view, the banker couldn't know any better, could he?
    How could it be his fault?

    He's just giving people what they want, it's not his fault.


  • #111
    Executive Steve
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,373 ✭✭✭Executive Steve


    DeVore wrote: »
    Did Sky News sound funny to you the other day???


    They cant achieve anything but they can play into the hands of spin masters and create a perception of instability.


    Good job SWP or whatever you are calling yourselves today! I never cared about them before because they were simply a bunch of nancyboy, wannabee revolutionaries with no dicks and daddys trustfund, but now we can ill afford their self centred "campaigning".

    DeV.



    Don't provoke them tbh.

    Anyway, it's an open secret that the SWP here and in the UK are essentially fronts for MI5.


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  • #112
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #113
    northwest100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 171 ✭✭northwest100


    donegalfella wrote:
    This post has been deleted.

    So the banker doesn't assume any responsibility?

    "Can I lend this man €X and get €Y back" ?

    The banker doesn't calculate this? c'mon DF, you know banks don't really care.

    They've state guarantee like in the US, it doesn't matter if the customer pays back because the government guarantees any loses..


  • #114
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    OK, we're drifting off topic a bit. The question is not whether the people of Ireland are responsible for the delinquencies of their government and their banks, but whether protesting at the moment is the right or wrong thing to be doing.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


  • #115
    northwest100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 171 ✭✭northwest100


    this is all i'll say.

    donegalfella sounds confused.

    in another thread on the same forum, he's arguing about how bad the Federal Reserve system is yet doesn't understand this is basically a fraudulent bank.


  • #116
    kev9100
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭kev9100


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    OK, we're drifting off topic a bit. The question is not whether the people of Ireland are responsible for the delinquencies of their government and their banks, but whether protesting at the moment is the right or wrong thing to be doing.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw

    Protesting will do nothing except make things worse. Like Devore said, punish them at the ballot box, where it counts.


  • #117
    moonpurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 852 ✭✭✭moonpurple


    oppressing.....


  • #118
    danbohan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    kev9100 wrote: »
    Protesting will do nothing except make things worse. Like Devore said, punish them at the ballot box, where it counts.

    the only problem with that idea is that we will probably end up with an equally incompetent and corrupt lot , anybody that thinks a goverment that includes the labour party at this time will be good for the country is totally nuts , unless you want hasten imf intervention . i think the real reason irish people are not protesting in any great numbers is because they realise that either way, their screwed


  • #119
    Kingkong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 562 ✭✭✭Kingkong


    There a larger issue in my opinion. The current political system is being blamed for much of the current state of affairs and this is well derserved. The system itself failed because there wasnt a strong oppossion in the Dail thus allowing free rein on policy.

    Regardless of what is now yesterday news, we need better leadership in the future and that can only come from better candiates being elected. The only way that becomes a reailty is that people with resourses and willingless to serve there country put themselves forward for election whether at local or national level.

    You cant change the system without putting new policticans in there first!


  • #120
    Guya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭Guya


    DeVore wrote: »
    We have a choice next week...

    A. protest, riot, and go down the tubes.

    B. Hold off for a few weeks or a month or two. Then force an election with those pending by-elections. They cant hold them off for ever.

    Please chose, its A or B. You either march or dont.

    DeV.

    In this plan B of yours DeV? You're only saying you'll vote against people (quite SWP of you). We all know that's not possible. Who are you going to vote for? What bastion of hope are you looking toward?

    You're making this sound like an ad for Carlsberg. Option C Mr D.
    3,000 peaceful marchers last week. We'll see how many this week.
    I believe in a free market. Not a fixed market. In a free market nothing is too big to fail. We don't have capitalism, we have cartellism.

    You don't know what to do so you're doing nothing. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with that but it won't achieve anything.


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  • #121
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    Kingkong wrote: »
    There a larger issue in my opinion. The current political system is being blamed for much of the current state of affairs and this is well derserved. The system itself failed because there wasnt a strong oppossion in the Dail thus allowing free rein on policy.

    Regardless of what is now yesterday news, we need better leadership in the future and that can only come from better candiates being elected. The only way that becomes a reailty is that people with resourses and willingless to serve there country put themselves forward for election whether at local or national level.

    You cant change the system without putting new policticans in there first!

    It is the Local Cumanns who decide -EVERYTHING IS PARISH PUMP POLITICS.


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