VRT Megathread - ALL VRT DISCUSSION IN HERE - Read First Post

Guy:Incognito

ryanstewart wrote: »

Have a look at the proposal on the facebook discussion page. .

The facebook page where I asked for links to the basics of what your campaign seems to be running on ? Big flashy headline proclaiming VRT i sillegal but no actual proof, but sure it's all ok because to paraphrase the response I got from one of you supporters "what does it matter of it's actually illegal"

Also the links to the fines Ireland are supposed to be paying every year never materialised. It's a good couple of weeks since I asked about these things.

-Chris-

-Chris- wrote: »

Can we keep on-topic as to whether VRT should be abolished rather than turning this into a personal/inter-county debate?

This warning was given earlier in the thread, and eoin's posed on this as well.

Again, let's move it away from us vs them and focus on VRT and whether it should be abolished.

Last warning - next person who posts negatively about "us versus them" gets banned for a week.

Fracture

Stekelly wrote: »

The only reason there's Donegal vs anyone is because the people of donegal were happy to sit back and go about their day breaking the law while the rest of the country was paying vrt, it's only now that it's your turn to jointhe rest of us that there's uroar in the north west.
Victimised? Give me a ****ing break. You've been having it easy, justbecause the law is now being applied to you equally doesn't mean your being victimised.

Are you serious? get a clue m8, seriously, you dont know what your talking about, customs have been hassling people in the border countys for as long as i can remember. I go down to wexford and galway alot and know ALOT of people who are driving uk reg cars, all of which have never even seen a bloody customs officer. Its happening all over the country, but its only getting properly enforced in the border countys.
I've paid my VRT, I dont agree with it and id love to see it abolished, the thing that made all this become a hot topic is that they customs officer are acting like the maffia + VRT is highly over priced, you think people would care if the prices were affordable? They are nothing short of a joke.
I was thinking about buying a 03 Jeep 4x4 in the north, at the time it was priced at 5000stg, obviously before id decided to make a decision i had a look at how much it would cost to clear the thing out, and to my supprise it was 7800 euro, wtf? Then on top of it i have to tax it aswell.

Anyway, stekelly, whats with this chip on your shoulder? you seem really angry, they way you are talking to people on here is over the top, seems to me your a hothead but why?

Donegal is the "forgotton county", the roads up here are an absolute joke, we pay or tax like everyone else and we get treated like dirt. I love being Irish, but seriously listening to people like you pisses me off and to be honest id rather donegal joined the uk or else became an independant state, atleast we might see some of our tax getting put to good use.

Guy:Incognito

Fracture wrote: »

, customs have been hassling people in the border countys for as long as i can remember..

How can you hassle people that are obeying the law? They wont be pulling anyone over thats driving an Irish reg car with tax and insurance.

Fracture wrote: »

Donegal is the "forgotton county", the roads up here are an absolute joke, we pay or tax like everyone else and we get treated like dirt. I love being Irish, but seriously listening to people like you pisses me off and to be honest id rather donegal joined the uk or else became an independant state, atleast we might see some of our tax getting put to good use.

Theres no direct tax that goes to roads.

You need to be talking to your councillors about roads, thats what the council is for, not moaning about how the government in Dublin is ignoring you.

Fracture wrote: »

Anyway, stekelly, whats with this chip on your shoulder? you seem really angry, they way you are talking to people on here is over the top, seems to me your a hothead but why?.

What chip? My only issue is with people not paying their way.

Campagins using lies and tabloidy headlines to draw in gullible "supporters"are not going to change anything.

Fracture wrote: »

I was thinking about buying a 03 Jeep 4x4 in the north, at the time it was priced at 5000stg, obviously before id decided to make a decision i had a look at how much it would cost to clear the thing out, and to my supprise it was 7800 euro, wtf? Then on top of it i have to tax it aswell.
.

How much would it cost to buy it here?

and what do you mean "on top of that aswell" , it's not like theres a special motor tax just for imported cars, you pay the same as everyone else.

JHMEG

Fracture wrote: »

to be honest id rather donegal joined the uk

Why don't you petition for that? The UK has no VRT, has better roads (esp NI), doesn't have a punitive motor tax system, and has many other benefits for the motorist. I think that's a more realistic option than getting VRT abolished.

Simple maths show that the amount of VRT being collected by the state currently probably doesn't even pay the social welfare bill for a single county.

The only way VRT will be dropped will be if it's ineffective and another tax can be found to replace it that will raise even more money. That won't be a fuel tax as it'll encourage border hopping.

Eoin

That's for another thread in another forum please.

Gophur

If the roads in DL are as bad as they say, why bother buying a car at all?

Fracture

Gophur wrote: »

If the roads in DL are as bad as they say, why bother buying a car at all?

better off with a hover craft m8 haha

JHMEG

eoin wrote: »

That's for another thread in another forum please.

It's not really, it's motoring related. The UK is definitely the better country for the motorist, and the US is better than the UK... and so on.

evolutionqy7

Vertakill wrote: »

As if a Facebook group is going to make any difference.

i know one of them did started campaign on building a cinema in roscommon town...now apprently their redesigning one appartment of an industrial shopping centres to change into multiplex cinema

on my opinion it shouldnt be completely abolished...there should be a certain tax put on it but not at the price it is now! its just stupid...

Fracture

Stekelly wrote: »

How can you hassle people that are obeying the law? They wont be pulling anyone over thats driving an Irish reg car with tax and insurance.

Pulling people over is not the problem i have with them, its the way they do it and they way speak to and treat people.

Stekelly wrote: »

Theres no direct tax that goes to roads.

You need to be talking to your councillors about roads, thats what the council is for, not moaning about how the government in Dublin is ignoring you.

What you think people up here dont talk to our councillors? There is always "limited funding" given to places for roads etc, ours is just alot less than dublin. Im not having a dublin v donegal arguement, but when you see the roads up here compared to roads in dublin there is a shocking difference.

Stekelly wrote: »

What chip? My only issue is with people not paying their way.

People do pay their way, i certainly pay my way (not that you said i didnt or anything), the amount of money made by VRT in Donegal shows that people are paying their way, all your posts come across to me as if your very angry.

Stekelly wrote: »

Campagins using lies and tabloidy headlines to draw in gullible "supporters"are not going to change anything.

You make it sound like its all a conspiracy theory or something, people dont have a right to argue against something now?

Stekelly wrote: »

How much would it cost to buy it here?

I cant remember, it was over 2 years ago. I do remember checking it on autotrader.ie at the time and remember that the VRT system had a value on it of something like 13000 and auto trader had a value of something like 8000 on that jeep. couldnt afford either at the end up, i was only enquiring anyway so it didnt matter.

Stekelly wrote: »

and what do you mean "on top of that aswell" , it's not like theres a special motor tax just for imported cars, you pay the same as everyone else.

What i mean by "on top of that aswell" is that if i bought the car in the north, then paid the vrt i would still have to fork out hundreds on tax, so overall it would cost a small fortune.

Again, if the VRT was at a resonable price there really wouldnt be much moaning about this topic.

Guy:Incognito

Fracture wrote: »

You make it sound like its all a conspiracy theory or something, people dont have a right to argue against something now?



.

The title is "Vrt is illegal". It's not.

It's also claimed that Irland is fined every year because of VRT, yet the campaign can't show any evidence of this.

I dont need conspiracy theories , the facts are all there provided by the people running the campaign.

Fracture wrote: »

What i mean by "on top of that aswell" is that if i bought the car in the north, then paid the vrt i would still have to fork out hundreds on tax, so overall it would cost a small fortune.
.

But if you bought the car here for the same price, you'd till have to pay the same tax.

corktina

As I understand it Ireland has a derogation re VRT. I've never heard of a fine being paid.Any evidence?

Fracture

Stekelly wrote: »

The title is "Vrt is illegal". It's not.

You must be right....or are you? The irish drivers assocition dont seem to agree with you, and im pretty sure you know next to nothing compared to these guys, since you seem to be showing no evidence yourself on how it is legal.

http://www.irishdrivers.org/dates-events/legal-challenge-to-vrt/

Stekelly wrote: »

It's also claimed that Irland is fined every year because of VRT, yet the campaign can't show any evidence of this.

Yeh, maybe your right. So what? You ever get anything wrong?

Stekelly wrote: »

I dont need conspiracy theories , the facts are all there provided by the people running the campaign.

If the facts are all there then what are you taking all this to heart for?

Stekelly wrote: »

But if you bought the car here for the same price, you'd till have to pay the same tax.

The TAX i dont mind paying, if you have a car you pay tax, thats a given.

Guy:Incognito

Fracture wrote: »

You must be right....or are you? The irish drivers assocition dont seem to agree with you, and im pretty sure you know next to nothing compared to these guys, since you seem to be showing no evidence yourself on how it is legal.

http://www.irishdrivers.org/dates-events/legal-challenge-to-vrt/ .

I assume you hav'nt read the thread, have a look at post 45. Theres a link there where the EU says it's legal, in as many words.

Plus, if it was illegal, why have the EU done nothign about it for 20 odd years?

Fracture wrote: »

Yeh, maybe your right. So what? You ever get anything wrong?

.

They ddnt just get it wrong. They are repeating it and using it as a point to futher their campaign. I repeatedly asked about it. At first I was told to go find my own source , since then I've been ignored. Both on the facebook page and here.

Fracture wrote: »

If the facts are all there then what are you taking all this to heart for?

To quote your good self "people dont have a right to argue against something now?"

Eoin

Fracture wrote: »

You must be right....or are you? The irish drivers assocition dont seem to agree with you, and im pretty sure you know next to nothing compared to these guys, since you seem to be showing no evidence yourself on how it is legal.

Putting up a link saying some organisation "believes" it's illegal doesn't make it illegal. I have posted a link from the EU's own website in this thread here that says countries are allowed charge VRT.

JHMEG

Fracture wrote: »

I was thinking about buying a 03 Jeep 4x4 in the north, at the time it was priced at 5000stg, obviously before id decided to make a decision i had a look at how much it would cost to clear the thing out, and to my supprise it was 7800 euro, wtf?

I was thinking of buying a car, €6000 would land it, but the VRT is another €4000. That's tough for me, but I'll just do something else.

The last car I bought in the UK was 4 years old, cost me €7400 and the VRT was only €380. You win some you lose some

ryanstewart

Stekelly wrote: »

I assume you hav'nt read the thread, have a look at post 45. Theres a link there where the EU says it's legal, in as many words.

Plus, if it was illegal, why have the EU done nothign about it for 20 odd years?

To quote your good self "people dont have a right to argue against something now?"

As you'll see earlier in this thread, and I've said so on the facebook page since, I agree with some of what the Irish Drivers Assoc says, not all of it, and where I'm happy to admit it if I was wrong, it seems some people can only pick on a small point and stick to it like glue - what I've since said, and openly retracted what I had said, is that I believe it is when it's enforced it becomes illegal - it's a completely unfair tax, it goes against our own constitution (right to freely own goods, earn a living, freedom of movement, right to privacy), it's double taxation, the vehicle seizures in themselves are illegal as the amount seized is not proportional to the value of the money owed, it is also an anti-competitive monopoly, and price fixing within the Irish car industry is illegal - which is a self-serving practise as it serves as a barrier to trade with other EU countries. The way fines are handed down is illegal, the means in which they gather information to enforce it is illegal. I have also pointed out that other EU countries have similar systems in place - it doesn't make them right either. The commission found against Finland originally, and then in the fallout afterwards have stepped back from the issue claiming it's a national tax which they don't like. So yes, I still believe it's illegal, just because the EU haven't the nuts to enforce their own policies, doesn't make you right either.

As for tabloidism in the name, think back to the government claiming yes to lisbon, yes to jobs etc. - where has that gone? At least have the guts yourself to admit you might be wrong on this argument yourself, and accept that it is unjust what's going on. I've learned a lot since I started this campaign, and yes mistakes have been made, and will continue to be made, but at the end of the day, it's an unjust tax, it's about time people spoke out about it, and for reasons right or wrong, it's getting talked about and public support is strongly against VRT, so if you are "happy" to pay your tax, then do so, but you don't have to agree with it even if you do pay it. What the hell is your problem??

Guy:Incognito

ryanstewart wrote: »

As you'll see earlier in this thread, and I've said so on the facebook page since, I agree with some of what the Irish Drivers Assoc says, not all of it, and where I'm happy to admit it if I was wrong, it seems some people can only pick on a small point and stick to it like glue - what I've since said, and openly retracted what I had said, is that I believe it is when it's enforced it becomes illegal - it's a completely unfair tax, it goes against our own constitution (right to freely own goods, earn a living, freedom of movement, right to privacy), it's double taxation, the vehicle seizures in themselves are illegal as the amount seized is not proportional to the value of the money owed, it is also an anti-competitive monopoly, and price fixing within the Irish car industry is illegal - remember it's SIMI who set the prices for revenue - unchallenged, which is a self-serving practise as it serves as a barrier to trade with other EU countries. The way fines are handed down is illegal, the means in which they gather information to enforce it is illegal. I have also pointed out that other EU countries have similar systems in place - it doesn't make them right either. The commission found against Finland originally, and then in the fallout afterwards have stepped back from the issue claiming it's a national tax which they don't like. So yes, I still believe it's illegal, just because the EU haven't the nuts to enforce their own policies, doesn't make you right either.

As for tabloidism in the name, think back to the government claiming yes to lisbon, yes to jobs etc. - where has that gone? At least have the guts yourself to admit you might be wrong on this argument yourself, and accept that it is unjust what's going on. I've learned a lot since I started this campaign, and yes mistakes have been made, and will continue to be made, but at the end of the day, it's an unjust tax, it's about time people spoke out about it, and for reasons right or wrong, it's getting talked about and public support is strongly against VRT, so if you are "happy" to pay your tax, then do so, but you don't have to agree with it even if you do pay it. What the hell is your problem??

So you admit it's wrong but the name hasnt changed? YOur now embracing the tabloidism of it whereas last wek you tried to turn it on me when I said it was tabloidism and said it was me that was being like that.

A case being throw out for du process not being followed does not mean that the fines are illegal or the way the informaion is gathered is illegal, it means that in that case something was done wrong.

Are you saying it's illegalfor Gards ad/or customs officers to watch cars illegally drive on the pubic roads and use that information to prosectute offenders? Why would that only apply to VRT if so?



How does it affect your right to privacy? (then explain how your right to privacy works when your in public)

How does it affect your right to own goods? You can own your foreign reg'd car all you like, you just can't use it on the public road legally.I can legally own a set of kitchen knives, I wont be long getting picked up walking down the street waving them around, or can I now tell the gards, on your authority, that they can sod off?


How does it affect your right to earn a living?


BTW, how many of these "rights" are actual rights granted under the constitution? (genuine question)

How does it affect your right to movement? People have legs, can freely walk , run, use bicycles etc. Does motor tax and having to pay for petrol and servicing and parts to keep your car going deny you your rights too?

ryanstewart

Stekelly wrote: »

So you admit it's wrong but the name hasnt changed? YOur now embracing the tabloidism of it whereas last wek you tried to turn it on me when I said it was tabloidism and said it was me that was being like that.

A case being throw out for du process not being followed does not mean that the fines are illegal or the way the informaion is gathered is illegal, it means that in that case something was done wrong.

Are you saying it's illegalfor Gards ad/or customs officers to watch cars illegally drive on the pubic roads and use that information to prosectute offenders? Why would that only apply to VRT if so?



How does it affect your right to privacy? (then explain how your right to privacy works when your in public)

How does it affect your right to own goods? You can own your foreign reg'd car all you like, you just can't use it on the public road legally.I can legally own a set of kitchen knives, I wont be long getting picked up walking down the street waving them around, or can I now tell the gards, on your authority, that they can sod off?


How does it affect your right to earn a living?


BTW, how many of these "rights" are actual rights granted under the constitution? (genuine question)

How does it affect your right to movement? People have legs, can freely walk , run, use bicycles etc. Does motor tax and having to pay for petrol and servicing and parts to keep your car going deny you your rights too?

Article 43

2° The State accordingly guarantees to pass no law attempting to abolish the right of private ownership or the general right to transfer, bequeath, and inherit property.

That's just one I can find at short notice - would this not be a direct contradiction; others include in the review of the Finance Act regarding privacy and surveillance, and bear in mind it's not on public roads that this takes place, it's when they are using surveillance at night to record registrations at private homes, challenging people in their homes regarding ownership, which is only permitted where "The Criminal Justice (Surveillance) Act 2009 makes provision for use of surveillance by Revenue in respect of suspected arrestable offences (offences carrying a penalty of 5 years or more) under customs and taxes legislation, e.g. cases of serious evasion of customs duty, excise duty, VAT fraud, oil laundering and cigarette and drug smuggling." From Revenue annual report - No mention of VRT, and that doesn't carry 5 years sentence! When you look out your window and have neighbours phoning the cops because of suspicious activity, happening every night on your own doorstep, you'll understand.

As far as earning a living, I know of three people who have lost their jobs as their cars were seized and they couldn't afford the fine to release them. I have previously paid VRT myself, but this time I can't afford it, due to having to take a huge pay cut to keep working - I now only earn just above minimum wage - but without going down the us v them thing - again! - that's another story for another thread;) and the Finnish case was not down to mistakes and due process.

Your free to disagree with what anyone says about VRT - illegal, unfair, unjust, etc, but there's more to it than just proving a point.

Eoin

I don't think anyone would disagree that it's unfair or unjust. But nobody has been able to provide any sort of definitive link to say it's illegal. When you start a campaign - no matter how noble it might be - on a false premise, then expect to be challenged on it.

As I said, "happy to pay VRT" is a slightly childish thing to say. I'm not "happy" paying any sort of tax, but I abide by the law and do so.

ryanstewart wrote:

2° The State accordingly guarantees to pass no law attempting to abolish the right of private ownership or the general right to transfer, bequeath, and inherit property.

Yet we also have capital gains / inheritance tax.

ryanstewart wrote:

As far as earning a living, I know of three people who have lost their jobs as their cars were seized and they couldn't afford the fine to release them. I have previously paid VRT myself, but this time I can't afford it, due to having to take a huge pay cut to keep working

If your budget doesn't cover the VRT then you can't afford the car. It's really that simple. Would you have as much sympathy for someone not having the use of their car because they couldn't afford to replace the clutch, despite knowing full well they would need to?

Guy:Incognito

ryanstewart wrote: »

As far as earning a living, I know of three people who have lost their jobs as their cars were seized and they couldn't afford the fine to release them. I have previously paid VRT myself, but this time I can't afford it, due to having to take a huge pay cut to keep working - I now only earn just above minimum wage - but without going down the us v them thing - again! - that's another story for another thread;).

Your taking a huge leap there saying they are denying you the ability to earn a living.

Lets be hinest here, you bouht the car you wanted. You could have bought a car for the same price here, it just wouldnt have been the same car. You chose to go buy a car you couldnt afford.

ryanstewart wrote: »

and the Finnish case was not down to mistakes and due process. .

I assumed you were talking about the case linked in the newspaper articls about here.

Unless the Finnish system was identical to ours then it's not really relevant.
I'm assueming because ours is left alone then they were'nt identical.

ardmacha

The State is free to impose taxes on private property, you are free to buy a house, but the State makes you pay stamp duty.

If anyone wants to propose the removal of tax at present they have to indicate how the revenue can be made up elsewhere in addition to the extra taxes that are needed to clear the deficit.

VRT is not especially unpopular, it hasn't been an issue in any election.

ryanstewart

eoin wrote: »

If your budget doesn't cover the VRT then you can't afford the car. It's really that simple. Would you have as much sympathy for someone not having the use of their car because they couldn't afford to replace the clutch, despite knowing full well they would need to?

My cars worth only about €2000, and it needs a new turbo, so I'm in both worlds!! Like many others, I'm not driving a high spec car either, and it really stuck in my throat paying it in previous years, but it gets me from A2B, and a similar motor in the republic would be a complete banger, wouldn't be reliable, and wouldn't be as fuel efficient.

And a reply has been posted which could replace it earlier on the page, and on the facebook page, which to be honest hasn't been dismissed out of hand by anyone, and I mean in politics, who has really looked at it. There are obvious arguments against elements of it, but that's what politicians are paid for - they can cherry pick it, add to it, edit it, but it can work.

As far as challenges to the campaign go, I'm happy to accept them too, as to be honest I've learned a lot over the last few weeks because of it. In all honesty I do believe it's a fair campaign, and will be worthwhile if it does go somewhere.

JHMEG

eoin wrote: »

As I said, "happy to pay VRT" is a slightly childish thing to say. I'm not "happy" paying any sort of tax, but I abide by the law and do so.

Nothing childish about it. A lot of people are happy to pay tax as long as they get something back from the state in exchange. Eg education, healthcare, and social welfare if necessary.

Guy:Incognito

ryanstewart wrote: »

My cars worth only about €2000, and it needs a new turbo, so I'm in both worlds!! Like many others, I'm not driving a high spec car either, and it really stuck in my throat paying it in previous years, but it gets me from A2B, and a similar motor in the republic would be a complete banger, wouldn't be reliable, and wouldn't be as fuel efficient.
.

Theres a low mileage Avensis with service history for an asking price of €2000 that doesnt need a new Turbo
http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=201018197854070

Theres plenty of perfectly good A-B cars well within that budget.

I could have sold you a car myself for less than half that.

You also could have brought in something from the UK and paid the VRT for less . The fact is you bought the car you wanted, knowing you couldnt legally afford it.

ryanstewart

Stekelly wrote: »

Theres a low mileage Avensis with service history for an asking price of €2000 that doesnt need a new Turbo
http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=201018197854070

Theres plenty of perfectly good A-B cars well within that budget.

I could have sold you a car myself for less than half that.

You also could have brought in something from the UK and paid the VRT for less . The fact is you bought the car you wanted, knowing you couldnt legally afford it.

In fairness, it's not bad, but I got mine because I'm getting 60+mpg and it's diesel. I couldn't run a petrol car with the miles I do. Also has acres of boot room for prams etc. but i take your point. Doubt i'd get 2k for it now either.

Eoin

JHMEG wrote: »

Nothing childish about it. A lot of people are happy to pay tax as long as they get something back from the state in exchange. Eg education, healthcare, and social welfare if necessary.

That's a fair point, but I don't think it was being said in that context. I think it was implied that accepting you have to pay a legal tax is the same as being happy about paying it.

ryanstewart wrote:

My cars worth only about €2000, and it needs a new turbo, so I'm in both worlds!! Like many others, I'm not driving a high spec car either, and it really stuck in my throat paying it in previous years, but it gets me from A2B, and a similar motor in the republic would be a complete banger, wouldn't be reliable, and wouldn't be as fuel efficient.

I bet you could have found a decent car for €2,000 - let alone the cost of your car + VRT.

8vgti

Absurdum wrote: »

I really don't care about VRT and this campaign. You can spend anything from €100 to upwards of €1m on a car if you want, nobody is forcing anyone to pay mad VRT amounts. If you are so much against it, don't buy a car, problem solved.

Have you ever been to Donegal (if you even know were it is) if you have been you'll know you cant just hop on a bus or a train to get everywhere.

WISE UP

JHMEG wrote: »

While I agree with the principle of VRT you are correct to point out that it is a far from perfect system.

It's also true that if the cost of running the country was reduced then VRT could also be reduced.

Which leads me on to Donegal. My understanding is that the cost of running that county in wages to teachers, gardaí, nurses, the co council etc, is more than Donegal takes in from outside the county through tourism, manufacturing etc, and that the county is being subsidised by the likes of Dublin.

There is an element of cake-and-eating-it when counties that are taking more out of the pot than what they are putting in are looking for a discount on the amount they do put in.

THE PEOPLE OF DONEGAL DO THE BEST THEY CAN WITH THE RESOURCES THEY HAVE. Would you come to a county that WILL wreck your bushings if you bounce along the road dodging potholes trying not to bend wheels and save your tire walls for long enough.

You probably wouldn't come to Donegal any way as the majority of you dubs are so stuck up your on asses you can't see past Dublin:rolleyes:

-Chris-

8vgti wrote: »

You probably wouldn't come to Donegal any way as the majority of you dubs are so stuck up your on asses you can't see past Dublin:rolleyes:

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