VRT Megathread - ALL VRT DISCUSSION IN HERE - Read First Post

Theanswers

Modnote: This thread is made up of several VRT threads that were running concurrently that were debating basically the same thing. They've all been merged.

This thread is for any discussion regarding VRT - is it fair, is it moral, is there anything going on in the world that is of interest to the pro/anti-VRT lobbies.

If you have a specific query about how VRT works or what to do in a specific instance, start a separate thread, all other discussion will be merged here.

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Hi,
I have no assoication with this campain however I feel we all should support it!
We CAN make a difference, we have put up with this for far to long.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=114939931865765&ref=ts

Guy:Incognito

They are running with the headline that VRT is illegal -FAIL.

Just because people say things, doesnt make them true.

Also, after 20 odd years of VRT the people of Donegal suddenly get all up in arms because it's now being enforced in their county.:rolleyes:

"People have had enough and the recent clamp down on VRT has been the last straw for many people who are just trying to survive this recession, where does the government expect people to continue to get the money for all these taxes"

"if that means buying a cheaper northern reg car which is 1/3rd cheaper then isn’t that better than that person being on social benefits"

Are we to assume all these people are driving cars gotten for free in the UK? Or did they go buy the car they wanted because it might be a bit cheaper there?

Aw god love them, they are not being allowed to dodge tax anymore. Boo hoo. I assume all these poor Donegal folk were renewing the UK tax on their unregistered cars (i relaise this is not possible before anyone points it out)



and then we hae the old reliable fine rubbish comign up that theres never any back up for

"I would like to see all councilors, politicians and parties particularly in the border counties come together and unite to finally have this illegal tax abolished. The fine that the EU applies to Ireland every year for this is not enough"

JHMEG

Stekelly wrote: »

Also, after 20 odd years of VRT the people of Donegal suddenly get all up in arms because it's now being enforced in their county.:rolleyes:

The should start a facebook campaign to allow Donegal rejoin the United Kingdom. I don't think I'd miss them

Guy:Incognito

JHMEG wrote: »

The should start a facebook campaign to allow Donegal rejoin the United Kingdom. I don't think I'd miss them

I'd join it.:)

EPM

It can't be abolished overnight. There's enough people with negative equity on their motors as it is. If it was ever done-which I doubt-it would have to be by a percent or two every year to preserve residuals as much as possible and reduce the shock to the economy

pburns

Seriously, anyone who thinks a revenue source on high value imported goods that are of minimal benefit to the Irish economy (apart from the over-inflated motor industry trade) should be abolished needs an IQ upgrade (and I'm not talking about the Toyota city car that is as as wide as it is long...)

Atlantic Dawn

EPM wrote: »

It can't be abolished overnight. There's enough people with negative equity on their motors as it is. If it was ever done-which I doubt-it would have to be by a percent or two every year to preserve residuals as much as possible and reduce the shock to the economy

Unless you are retiring from driving the reduction in the price of purchasing a new car is only a bonus, the new car you purchase will cost less so you will not be at a loss in changing your car.

Guy:Incognito

I asked the group over 2 hours ago about links to prove VRT is illegal and to the supposed fines Ireland pays every year (both of which they talk about in a letter sent to councillors) to the EU but all I've gotten bck is evasive replies.

The people recieving these letters must piss themselves laughing at the uninformed rubbish that falls through their doors (on huge amounts of other topics too no doubt). People really just take what someone online says is true and run with it.:)

JHMEG

Did you ask them have the considered the UK option?

Vertakill

I'd have my doubts whether the old geezers responsible for VRT, in their respective parties, will stumble across this exact facebook group.

I also doubt it will have any impact whatsoever considering how easy it would be to abuse the numbers.

Same goes for the stupid "FRANCE v IRELAND MATCH TO BE REPLAYED!!!!!" groups.

As if a Facebook group is going to make any difference.

Guy:Incognito

Vertakill wrote: »

As if a Facebook group is going to make any difference.

Especially one where you dont even have to get past the title to see it's built on a false statement.

Theanswers

Well If you all want to pay VRT, then do so. But for once I think we should make a stand, it is not correct to be paying a fee of upwards 34% of a products value to register it. I will not be paying it... Couldn’t care less.

I do not agree with VRT. And so you all know this facebook group has been getting alot of coverage here outside the 'pale' in the west. It's been on I102 104 news bulletins, Ocean FM, Highland Radio, the Derry Journal, Inishowen Radio, and newstalk the one Dublin based station to mention it. So it's more than just one odd group.

So why do you all seem to love paying it? I just can understand it, why do you love to throw more and more money towards a government that passes it straight on to the banks. It's not even spent on roads or public transport both of which leave ALOT to be desired.
Alas the group also highlights the heavy handed tactics of Customs officers, Harassing people from the north who visit our country, which happens to support our local economy. Attempting to seize their cars, how is this a good representation of our country?

ninty9er

Theanswers wrote: »

Well If you all want to pay VRT, then do so. But for once I think we should make a stand, it is not correct to be paying a fee of upwards 34% of a products value to register it. I will not be paying it... Couldn’t care less.

I do not agree with VRT. And so you all know this facebook group has been getting alot of coverage here outside the 'pale' in the west. It's been on I102 104 news bulletins, Ocean FM, Highland Radio, the Derry Journal, Inishowen Radio, and newstalk the one Dublin based station to mention it. So it's more than just one odd group.

So why do you all seem to love paying it? I just can understand it, why do you love to throw more and more money towards a government that passes it straight on to the banks. It's not even spent on roads or public transport both of which leave ALOT to be desired.
Alas the group also highlights the heavy handed tactics of Customs officers, Harassing people from the north who visit our country, which happens to support our local economy. Attempting to seize their cars, how is this a good representation of our country?

You need to:
A) Understand that we all have to do things we don't like.
Get your head around the fact that this group is based on a foundation more sandy than the property bubble
C) Gain an understanding of where the money for the banks is coming from, because it's not VRT and very little of it is coming from central exhequer funding at all.

EPM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Unless you are retiring from driving the reduction in the price of purchasing a new car is only a bonus, the new car you purchase will cost less so you will not be at a loss in changing your car.

And dealers with hundreds of thousands worth of stock devaluing by 20 percent go bust, the sudden fall in tax revenues, private individuals losing their shirts on sudden drops in value. Bad idea removing it in one foul swoop. Staged reductions is the only fair way to do it.

chasm

Theanswers wrote: »

I will not be paying it... Couldn’t care less.

Ok, seeing as you couldn't care less, if you are driving around in an imported vehicle without paying the VRT can we safely assume that you won't come on here starting a thread moaning about customs lifting your vehicle?

Sofiztikated

Oh for the love of GOD!

Get over it. Facebook "campaigns" do next to **** all.

Have you any actual PROOF that VRT is "Illegal?" Links to more than heresay and conjecture?

No?

Lord Nikon

VRT should be the same for all motors, regardless of make/model/year/spec/colour. All it is, is registration of a car on Irish roads with Irish plates.

VRT is far from illegal, but it's the way it's calculated is the problem.

There is/should be free movement of all goods through the Eurozone, and with motors too. Yet, to bring a car into ireland you pay a "tax" for registration instead of a set "fee".

squod

Many people are pissed with having to pay extra on a vehicle in the form of another tax. Why shouldn't people want to complain about it? Why should Ireland be different and have to pay it.

We're currently handing out cash to foreign manufacturing companies in the form of scrappage schemes. Yet the comsumer is still being dipped for VRT. It's a a tax that no-one wants FFS, yet there's some people trying to defend it!

You'd wanna be off your head like.

Shane732

As outlined in a recent thread in AH I've been there and done that. I've attached a response from the EU Commission in relation to a number of queries I raised with them.

You'll see from the attached letter that there has been a number cases in relation to the equivalent of vehicle registration in various European countries. Unfortunately the challenges have not been successful to date.

VRT is a tax that the majority of people just pay and, certainly up until recently (prior to the emissions based motor tax system), it's always been just built into the price of a new car - you don't split the cost of a new car down between net, VAT & VRT, instead you just try to bargain with the dealer on the whole price. If you buy a secondhand car it's irrelevant to you. People really only begin to think about it when they are importing a car and you see just how much you're actually paying. Perhaps people are more aware since the introduced of the emissions based system.

What pisses me off is people saying "Well where would we get the money from if we didn't have VRT" - that's completely irrelevant to the legality of VRT. The question is whether the tax is legal or not. Granted there might be a knock on effect to the exchequer if the tax was abolished but that has no relevance to the legality of the tax. What pisses even more is people making sweeping statements that "I'm not paying VRT, it's a stupid tax" etc... If the tax is legal, you pay it - end of.

From the various challenges to similar forms of taxation in other EU countries it would appear that the tax is legal. Personally I think there is a strong legal argument against VRT. OP or anyone else if you really want to challenge VRT then get 250,000 members of your facebook group and get them to contribute €1 each and we'll have our day in the ECJ.

Sorry for the poor quality of attachments - seems to be the only way I could block out my contact details etc...

Shane732

neuromancer wrote: »

VRT should be the same for all motors, regardless of make/model/year/spec/colour. All it is, is registration of a car on Irish roads with Irish plates.

VRT is far from illegal, but it's the way it's calculated is the problem.

There is/should be free movement of all goods through the Eurozone, and with motors too. Yet, to bring a car into ireland you pay a "tax" for registration instead of a set "fee".

Now if only everyone else in the country could realise this we'd be sorted.

You're bang on.

Sofiztikated

Thats more like it, Shane732.

If its legal, then you pays yours taxes.

If its not, and then deemed illegal, then something is done about it. However, however, just creating a group on "de Facebuke" or "de Bebos" won't cut it.

*Take note, I'm not saying it is or is not illegal. I'm going with the "its legal, so it gets paid" route. Don't entirely like the way it is done, but, until its changed, what can you do? And no, I'm not campaigning to get it changed. I have more than enough to do as it is.*

ligertigon

He did make one valid point.
Cost of collection is most likely more than revenue received.

Let me give a personal example.

I bought a 95 car on northern plates.
went into vrt office to vrt.
they said €700 as there was no CO2 figure, so applied max.
I used a mpg to CO2 calculator, = €300 vrt.
Bamboozeled official never saw this before (despite its a revenue publication), he said no its €700 but will need to look into it.

4 days later, a 07:45am sting outside my house as I went to work.
I past 3 cars, and stopped for 4th.... customs....
Threatened about fine etc, and told them how THERE side was holding things up.

Result: 4 days later vrt office call to say Toyota Ireland has advised them that the mpg I supplied was correct, thus €300 vrt which I paid.

Please advise me the cost of wages etc for the mornings €300 takings.(which, remember, I contacted them first)

And regards posts about it being tax evasion/legal, why did they not camp outside a working class housing estate? Answer? the people they stop could not afford to pay the fine, so they don't bother. QED

Eoin

squod wrote: »

Many people are pissed with having to pay extra on a vehicle in the form of another tax. Why shouldn't people want to complain about it? Why should Ireland be different and have to pay it.

We're currently handing out cash to foreign manufacturing companies in the form of scrappage schemes. Yet the comsumer is still being dipped for VRT. It's a a tax that no-one wants FFS, yet there's some people trying to defend it!

Ireland isn't the only country that has VRT.

People aren't saying that VRT is fair or defending it. They are saying that it's not illegal. Time after time, people bleat on about this "illegal" tax, but I have never been given any link from a reputable source that confirms this. I can dig out a link from the EU saying that Ireland is entitled to charge VRT if you want.

So why do you all seem to love paying it?

That's a very childish argument. Accepting a legal, if unfair, tax does not equal "love" paying it.

It BeeMee

Facebook wrote:

HAS THE GOVERNMENT NOT GONE LOW ENOUGH THAT THEY BAIL OUT BANKS FOR BILLIONS BUT THEN TRY TO SCREW HARD WORKING PEOPLE OUT OF THE FEW HUNDRED QUID THEY NEED TO PAY THEIR MORTGAGE OR FEED THEIR KIDS?

If people are having problems with this, perhaps changing the car should be lower on the list of priorities....

squod wrote: »

We're currently handing out cash to foreign manufacturing companies in the form of scrappage schemes. Yet the comsumer is still being dipped for VRT. It's a a tax that no-one wants FFS, yet there's some people trying to defend it!

My understanding is the government rebate is actually a VRT reduction, not a kickback to the manufacturer themselves?

Guy:Incognito

squod wrote: »

Many people are pissed with having to pay extra on a vehicle in the form of another tax. Why shouldn't people want to complain about it? Why should Ireland be different and have to pay it.
.

Different from who? Plenty of countries have a system of VRT.

eoin wrote: »

I can dig out a link from the EU saying that Ireland is entitled to charge VRT if you want.


.

If you get a chance to dig that out I could use it eoin , cheers.

Eoin

It BeeMee wrote: »

If people are having problems with this, perhaps changing the car should be lower on the list of priorities....

Or they could just buy a cheap car in Ireland!

Guy:Incognito

eoin wrote: »

Or they could just buy a cheap car in Ireland!

They would have to pay motor tax then though.

I assume all these people in the border counties don't head over to buy the more expensive petrol?

Absurdum

I really don't care about VRT and this campaign. You can spend anything from €100 to upwards of €1m on a car if you want, nobody is forcing anyone to pay mad VRT amounts. If you are so much against it, don't buy a car, problem solved.

squod

Stekelly wrote: »

Different from who? Plenty of countries have a system of VRT.

Plenty of countries don't.

It BeeMee wrote: »

My understanding is the government rebate is actually a VRT reduction, not a kickback to the manufacturer themselves?

Doling out money to foreign manufacturers isn't cool in a recession, however they want to put it. The whole VRT argument from the government has to be seen with some perspective is about all I'm saying.

They can choose to reduce VRT (rebate you've mentioned) or provide incentives to foreign manufacturers, as a way of controlling the market.

ligertigon

Absurdum wrote: »

I really don't care about VRT and this campaign. You can spend anything from €100 to upwards of €1m on a car if you want, nobody is forcing anyone to pay mad VRT amounts. If you are so much against it, don't buy a car, problem solved.

Not true

Absurdum

squod wrote: »

They can choose to reduce VRT (rebate you've mentioned) or provide incentives to foreign manufacturers, as a way of controlling the market.

Who sells, services, markets, etc. those foreign cars?

Absurdum

ligertigon wrote: »

Not true

no really, it is true, I don't care!

Guy:Incognito

squod wrote: »

Plenty of countries don't.



Doling out money to foreign manufacturers isn't cool in a recession, however they want to put it. The whole VRT argument from the government has to be seen with some perspective is about all I'm saying.

They can choose to reduce VRT (rebate you've mentioned) or provide incentives to foreign manufacturers, as a way of controlling the market.

You said we were different. We're not, we're the same as many others.

No money is being doled out to manufacturers other than what customers are choosing to give them when buying cars.

The government however are making more through the vat and vrt that is being brought it.

RoundyMooney

Bertie (him of the accounting acumen) was asked before election '07, to replace vrt with something else, and with all his hubris, even he said it was a non runner.

Do they really think it will happen now?

Just because the customs have finally decided there are actually 26 counties in Ireland, is no reason for these people to try and get an exemption for themselves.

ligertigon

Absurdum wrote: »

no really, it is true, I don't care!

vrt is payable on date of enquiry.

And can change.

So, enquire today, buy today, go to vrt tomorrow, and its a totally different amount.

You don't care?

Sofiztikated

squod wrote: »

Doling out money to foreign manufacturers isn't cool in a recession, however they want to put it. The whole VRT argument from the government has to be seen with some perspective is about all I'm saying.

Doling out money to foreign... Good god.

Do you know how many cars are manufactured here in Ireland every day? I'm going to hazard a guess, and say none. (I know thats not strictly true, what with hobbiests and rally cars, BUT you know what I mean.)

Anything that gets people spending is generally a good thing, as what we pay on cars goes towards paying

Wages
VAT
Overheads
Rent

Etc etc. These need to be paid, and not defaulted on.

Absurdum

ligertigon wrote: »

vrt is payable on date of enquiry.

And can change.

So, enquire today, buy today, go to vrt tomorrow, and its a totally different amount.

You don't care?

you're making the assumption that I'm buying

Sofiztikated

Absurdum wrote: »

Who sells, services, markets, etc. those foreign cars?

Generally someone other than main dealers, as they don't like "foreign" cars. :pac:

squod

Stekelly wrote: »

You said we were different. We're not, we're the same as many others.

We are different, as you've just confirmed. Not every country has VRT. Not even most of them.

Stekelly wrote: »

No money is being doled out to manufacturers other than what customers are choosing to give them when buying cars.

So then it is being doled out.

Stekelly wrote: »

The government however are making more through the vat and vrt that is being brought it.

You're view is that the government should directly interfere with the market? The foreign manufacturer is making more revenue through the governments interference. We're in a recession, we should be doing what we can for our own primary sectors.

ligertigon

Absurdum wrote: »

you're making the assumption that I'm buying

I made no assumption other than your wrong

mp3kid

ligertigon wrote: »

4 days later, a 07:45am sting outside my house as I went to work.

why did they not camp outside a working class housing estate?

You work = you're working class.

Absurdum

ligertigon wrote: »

I made no assumption other than your wrong

ok :rolleyes:

ligertigon

mp3kid wrote: »

You work = you're working class.

I really wanted to say" This car is powered by the dole"

lol

JHMEG

RoundyMooney wrote: »

Bertie (him of the accounting acumen)

:eek: Are you serious?

Bertie wasn't even able to count the money he stuffed under the mattress.

Eoin

Stekelly wrote: »

If you get a chance to dig that out I could use it eoin , cheers.

Here you go:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2004_2009/documents/cm/536/536456/536456en.pdf

'A.- The facts.
The petitioner considers that it hinders the free movement of goods across the EU that taxes for the acquisition of vehicles differ according to countries. She further alleges double taxation in Portugal, given that where a car is bought in this country, VAT plus a special tax, the Vehicle Registration Tax
(VRT) have to be paid. This VRT has to be paid also if a car bought abroad is imported into Portugal.
B. - Legal analysis.
1. It must be said, from the outset, that the VRT is a registration tax in force in Portugal and that, at the present stage of Community Law, Member States have the right to levy such registration taxes on cars.
There is no harmonization on this matter and this means that, provided they respect the basic principles of Community legislation, Member States remain free to apply this kind of tax to motor cars
PE 346.807 2/2 CM\536456EN.doc
EN
on the occasion of their first entry into use within their territory and to settle the tax rates at the level they see fit. The majority of Member States (ten Member States, Portugal being one of them) in fact apply those taxes.

Nobody I've asked has been able to provide a newer link from a reputable source that contradicts the above.

It BeeMee

squod wrote: »

Doling out money to foreign manufacturers isn't cool in a recession, however they want to put it. The whole VRT argument from the government has to be seen with some perspective is about all I'm saying.

The consumer is giving the money to the manufacturers, not the government.

The foreign manufacturer is making more revenue through the governments interference. We're in a recession, we should be doing what we can for our own primary sectors.

So the government should dissuade people from sending their money abroad by... oh I don't know, taxing what they're buying, perhaps?

squod wrote: »

They can choose to reduce VRT (rebate you've mentioned) or provide incentives to foreign manufacturers, as a way of controlling the market.

Control the market?

JHMEG

ligertigon wrote: »

He did make one valid point.
Cost of collection is most likely more than revenue received.

While I agree with the principle of VRT you are correct to point out that it is a far from perfect system.

It's also true that if the cost of running the country was reduced then VRT could also be reduced.

Which leads me on to Donegal. My understanding is that the cost of running that county in wages to teachers, gardaí, nurses, the co council etc, is more than Donegal takes in from outside the county through tourism, manufacturing etc, and that the county is being subsidised by the likes of Dublin.

There is an element of cake-and-eating-it when counties that are taking more out of the pot than what they are putting in are looking for a discount on the amount they do put in.

ligertigon

JHMEG

Good point on pointing out the issue of "picking on a region"


Its like the reverse of " not in my back yard"

mohahaha, p.s. just an observation, not a response

Del2005

ligertigon wrote: »

He did make one valid point.
Cost of collection is most likely more than revenue received.

Let me give a personal example.

I bought a 95 car on northern plates.
went into vrt office to vrt.
they said €700 as there was no CO2 figure, so applied max.
I used a mpg to CO2 calculator, = €300 vrt.
Bamboozeled official never saw this before (despite its a revenue publication), he said no its €700 but will need to look into it.

4 days later, a 07:45am sting outside my house as I went to work.
I past 3 cars, and stopped for 4th.... customs....
Threatened about fine etc, and told them how THERE side was holding things up.

Result: 4 days later vrt office call to say Toyota Ireland has advised them that the mpg I supplied was correct, thus €300 vrt which I paid.

Please advise me the cost of wages etc for the mornings €300 takings.(which, remember, I contacted them first)

And regards posts about it being tax evasion/legal, why did they not camp outside a working class housing estate? Answer? the people they stop could not afford to pay the fine, so they don't bother. QED

That's one old car out of thousands that are registered every year. Most cars can be done in the office in the space of a few minutes and get the government thousands of Euro for a few minutes work.

The only way it's costing extra money for collection is to pay all the Customs people to stand at the side of a road stopping people who refuse to pay.

Theanswers wrote: »

Alas the group also highlights the heavy handed tactics of Customs officers, Harassing people from the north who visit our country, which happens to support our local economy. Attempting to seize their cars, how is this a good representation of our country?

Maybe if so many people from the region weren't avoiding paying the VRT the customs wouldn't need to be so heavy handed.

ligertigon

Del2005 wrote: »

That's one old car out of thousands that are registered every year. Most cars can be done in the office in the space of a few minutes and get the government thousands of Euro for a few minutes work.

The only way it's costing extra money for collection is to pay all the Customs people to stand at the side of a road stopping people who refuse to pay.




Maybe if so many people from the region weren't avoiding paying the VRT the customs wouldn't need to be so heavy handed.

The revenue rattle the sabre on those who on paper can pay, not those that might pay.

Government policy: pick on the easy targets. or haven't you realised yet?
That is of course, your part of it.

-Chris-

squod wrote: »

So then it is being doled out.

At the moment, if you buy a new car in Ireland, probably a third of the money goes to the government and two thirds go to the foreign manufacturer or their local representatives.

If you abolish VRT and car sales remain the same, the exact same amount of money will go to the foreign manufacturer and their local representatives, but the government will get nothing.

It seems like your plan is to send a greater proportion of our car sales money abroad than we currently do, and retain as little as possible of it here.