VRT Megathread - ALL VRT DISCUSSION IN HERE - Read First Post

ryanstewart

I think some of you should read some of the previous posts on this - I've responded to a lot of this stuff already. I've said before that it's the method of enforcement that's illegal - whoever quoted the Finance Act 2010 fhould have a closer look re surveillance powers being restricted to offences carrying a minimum term of 5 years in prison.

Also the number of people on a facebook page is not a respresentative number when it comes to support for this campaign - there are thousands more in the general public who are not on facebook who support this.

Thirdly, the incidents relating to Ms Davern occurred over two days - it was on the second day, when Ms Davern and her daughter were alone at home that the snatch squad landed - I had stated that there were up to 16 customs officers and 8 gardai who arrived - Sean Kelleher from customs went on the radio to say the figure was grossly overstated - there were only 12! Stop nit-picking - 12 customs men backed up by Gardai to remove a vehicle from a woman still in shock the day before?

To say it's to benefit a "few thousand" motorists shows just how out of touch with this issue some people are - VRT affects EVERYONE - and there are over 100000 NI reg vehicles on Irish roads, and they are not all parked up in Donegal.

Sean Kelleher is trying to say that it is a particular problem in Donegal with a high level of non-compliance - Rubbish. After Dublin and Cork, Donegal has paid the most amount of VRT in the country - this would suggest a high level of compliance, would it not?

The only reason it's happening in Donegal, is because what happens in Donegal - stays in Donegal. Because to be honest, the rest of the country doesn't give a toss about Donegal.

And by the way Cookie monster, try looking at the proposal that was posted earlier on fairly redistributing the tax collected from VRT, so that it's not such an issue, and will actually benefit the motor industry - nobody wants more income tax - it's a motor related issue, so the replacement of that revenue should come from this source.

Do some people on here also not believe that non-compliance/inability to pay/afford vehicles is a direct result of a recession? Unemployment, average wages, etc all have a direct proportional on payment of VRT. I appreciate the fact that the country needs money, but so do the people who live in it - if anything there should at least be a period of non-enforcement of it to let people get on with things until we can see some sort of recovery, and take that opportunity to sort out this mess.

It also didn't take that long to find this stuff out and i have been pointing the facts to people on the page and people who have contacted me, and the reason I've learned so much about this is from criticism of what we are trying to do, so I accept that some may not be happy with what we are trying to achieve by abolishing VRT, although I can't understand why. The motor industry itself is crying out for this to go, and has been for years. I also accept that some are just happy to try and pick holes in statements, which to be honest are brief snippets of what has actually happened - would you really sit down and read full essays on one particular incident? Some are trying to pick small holes and being extremely pedantic rather than sitting back and looking at the full picture, fo rthe sake of petty argument.

smash

laura. wrote: »

there is absolutly no need to be so contrary it's quite obvious you knew what I was on about and i know MOTOR TAX has nothing to do with VRT thanks for input anyway

Come on though Laura, the motor tax rip off argument is nothing to do with this argument and I think you know that.

The bottom line is that people can complain all they want about VRT (I hate it to) but a facebook group will do nothing. There's been plenty of petitions against it, alternatives suggested by consultants and numerous motoring lobbies that have tried to take court action and all have had the same result. People can also talk about how many politicians are in agreement with you but the bottom line is that they're not in power and if they were, VRT would not be abolished because they'd need to make the shortfall somewhere else, and realistically nobody wants to pay more income tax!

ryanstewart wrote: »

it was on the second day, when Ms Davern and her daughter were alone at home that the snatch squad landed - I had stated that there were up to 16 customs officers and 8 gardai who arrived - Sean Kelleher from customs went on the radio to say the figure was grossly overstated - there were only 12! Stop nit-picking - 12 customs men backed up by Gardai to remove a vehicle from a woman still in shock the day before?

Actually they arrived on the first day and she didn't comply, therefore more resources were needed.

ryanstewart wrote: »

Donegal has paid the most amount of VRT in the country - this would suggest a high level of compliance, would it not?

Without stats to state whether the cars were registered in Donegal as DL reg cars, this would suggest that it's probably the closest office to the border so people will pay the VRT on the way home. You should know that you don't have to go to your local VRT office to register your new car.

furtzy

ryanstewart wrote: »

I whoever quoted the Finance Act 2010 fhould have a closer look re surveillance powers being restricted to offences carrying a minimum term of 5 years in prison.
.

Eh are you suggesting they tapped her phone etc? Do you think looking at her reg and then looking at her licence and proof of residence falls under the category of surveilance

ryanstewart wrote: »

Thirdly, the incidents relating to Ms Davern occurred over two days - it was on the second day, when Ms Davern and her daughter were alone at home that the snatch squad landed - I had stated that there were up to 16 customs officers and 8 gardai who arrived - Sean Kelleher from customs went on the radio to say the figure was grossly overstated - there were only 12! Stop nit-picking - 12 customs men backed up by Gardai to remove a vehicle from a woman still in shock the day before?.

Snatch squad? High emotive language there. You make it sound like some sort of CIA rendition operation. A woman still in shock. She could hardly be in shock at what happened since she was fully aware she was driving an illegal vehicle and the implications that would arise if she was stopped


How do want it scrapped? What are you alternatives? Post up your roadmap for the removal of VRT and we'll discuss the implications

Cookie_Monster

ryanstewart wrote: »

Do some people on here also not believe that non-compliance/inability to pay/afford vehicles is a direct result of a recession? Unemployment, average wages, etc all have a direct proportional on payment of VRT. I appreciate the fact that the country needs money, but so do the people who live in it - if anything there should at least be a period of non-enforcement of it to let people get on with things until we can see some sort of recovery, and take that opportunity to sort out this mess.

If those people need money so badly how can still afford to buy a new car and bring them into the state in the first place.

VRT has come down a lot due to the recession too don't forget. All manufacturers have dropped their selling prices by considerable margins over the last 2 years, thus reducing VRT.

And sort out what mess, there is no mess at the moment, only chancers who think they can get away with it? If they had a period of non-enforcement can you not see the mess that would lead to.

ryanstewart

steve06 wrote: »

Come on though Laura, the motor tax rip off argument is nothing to do with this argument and I think you know that.

The bottom line is that people can complain all they want about VRT (I hate it to) but a facebook group will do nothing. There's been plenty of petitions against it, alternatives suggested by consultants and numerous motoring lobbies that have tried to take court action and all have had the same result. People can also talk about how many politicians are in agreement with you but the bottom line is that they're not in power and if they were, VRT would not be abolished because they'd need to make the shortfall somewhere else, and realistically nobody wants to pay more income tax!


Actually they arrived on the first day and she didn't comply, therefore more resources were needed.


Without stats to state whether the cars were registered in Donegal as DL reg cars, this would suggest that it's probably the closest office to the border so people will pay the VRT on the way home. You should know that you don't have to go to your local VRT office to register your new car.

If that's the case, why are the figures much lower for Louth, Monaghan, Cavan Leitrim, etc? Surely this would be representative of that? Most people will also get a number plate from their own county - if it's reg'd in Donegal, it gets DL plates.

In relation to the other incident, I was there on both occasions - 4 officers the first day in Lidl, I'll accept Sean Kelleher's statement of 12 officers on day 2. I saw what happened.

Snatch squad is exactly what it was - they crept up her driveway within minutes of the TV crews leaving - they had obviously been watching the house waiting on them to go - fortunately UTV got back to film the events - it probably does sound far fetched to some people, but this is actually happening up here - and don't be so petty about being in shock!

Proposal follows...

1) A VRT amnesty offered for all foreign registered vehicles to allow owners to legally import their vehicles, with a handling fee for registration similar to that of commercial vehicles, followed by payment of Irish Road Tax on these vehicles. There should be a requirement to prove that a vehicle has been in the owner’s possession for a period of time prior to the announcement of the amnesty to prevent vehicles being purchased abroad en-masse. As there is a quarterly payment available for payment of road tax, this should allow affordable transfer of vehicles for all. Heavier penalties for non-payment of Road Tax for those who have registered their vehicles, but not paid Irish road tax should also be implemented, enforced by An Garda Siochana.

2) After a period of 6 months, the removal of Vehicle Registration Tax, which should be replaced with a flat rate €100 Vehicle Registration Fee. This should be extended to all new registrations including previously exempt vehicles.

3) Tax of 20 cent on each ticket sold imposed on all public, local authority and private pay and display car parks. 10% fine imposed on all fines issued for non-compliance with parking bye-laws, and clamping/tow-away release charges. This should not be extended to residential parking schemes.

4) End of any Scrappage Scheme on new car sales, replaced with a rebate for used car sales to used car dealers on models first registered after 1st January 2008.

5) Regulation of motor tax amounts. CC based calculations should remain as they are for vehicles registered pre-January 2008, as an incentive for buying a newer model.

6) Increase of 4 cent per litre on Petrol and 2 cent per litre on Diesel


Rationale:


1. Assuming 50000 vehicles are registered, paying on average €500 in road tax, plus €100 as a one-off registration fee, this would generate approximately €130,000,000 over the next 5 years in Road Tax. These vehicles are already on the road however road tax is currently being paid to a foreign government, mainly the UK. There would also be significant cost savings from less requirement of enforcement by Customs & Excise.
2. Removal of VRT should see a huge increase in new vehicle sales, restored to near 2008 levels. Also, those previously considering a 2007/2008 model should now see themselves in a position to purchase a brand new car. Assuming 100,000 new vehicles are registered, this should see VAT receipts increase by approximately €175,000,000 to €340,000,000, and adding the registration fee this will add a further €14,800,000. It would also have the effect of modernising the fleet of vehicles currently on the road in Ireland, thus being more fuel efficient, and creating less CO2
3. Figures not yet available, although assuming 100,000 pay and display spaces exist, and excluding added revenue from enforcement of non-compliance, this would generate approximately €8,000,000 per year. See calculation attached. I believe the number of spaces available for pay and display to be a lot higher than 100,000. This will effectively act as a localise congestion charge also, and hopefully discourage non-essential use of cars in built up areas..
4. With the removal of VRT, all vehicles will automatically depreciate, and the only casualty in this would be used car dealers. As this industry is already in difficulty, it would be necessary to allow dealers time to wind down stocks, and allow a rebate on sales of cars taxable under newer CO2 based Road tax prices. It should have less of an impact on those who currently own a vehicle, as the depreciation will be across the board, and newer models will also depreciate, making their next purchase much more affordable. The rebate would be based upon a % rate of VRT already paid on the vehicle purchased, on models later than January 2008, to lessen the impact of depreciation on any remaining stock used vehicles.
5. By leaving CC rates or road tax in place, this will a much greater incentive for those changing their car to buy a 2008 model or newer, as they will avail of cheaper road tax in most cases, and again helping to modernise the types of cars driven on Irish roads – safer, more fuel efficient transport.
6. This measure would be required to slowly bring Ireland closer in line with EU objectives, by basing tax collected on usage, rather than engine emissions. A simple example is that a driver may own a 1.0 litre Renault Clio, and will fall into the cheaper tax bracket as it stands, whereas the owner of BMW X5 will fall into the higher bracket. If the BMW driver only does 5000 miles per year, and the Clio driver does 40000 miles per year, the Clio driver is obviously creating much higher CO2. This would regulate this part of the road tax, and should eventually lead to a usage-only based road tax. The initial rise would increase tax claimed by the exchequer by approximately €150,000,000. per year, followed by an incremental annual rise/reduction regarding fuel tax/road tax values.

ryanstewart

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

If those people need money so badly how can still afford to buy a new car and bring them into the state in the first place.

VRT has come down a lot due to the recession too don't forget. All manufacturers have dropped their selling prices by considerable margins over the last 2 years, thus reducing VRT.

And sort out what mess, there is no mess at the moment, only chancers who think they can get away with it? If they had a period of non-enforcement can you not see the mess that would lead to.

I'm afraid you're wrong there Cookie monster - the prices on the forecourts have fallen, however the OMSP on the revenue's calculator have not reflected this - these remain pre-recession. And as far as a new car, it's an 02 - eigth years old. When the laws were changed re provisional driving licences, was there a mess when they gave people time to sort themselves out - no!

smash

ryanstewart wrote: »

If that's the case, why are the figures much lower for Louth, Monaghan, Cavan Leitrim, etc? Surely this would be representative of that? Most people will also get a number plate from their own county - if it's reg'd in Donegal, it gets DL plates.

Now it doesn't Ryan, it gets registered to the address of the owner. I live in Wicklow, I've registered 2 cars to my address from the Dublin VRO and 1 car to someone in Limerick, again from the Dublin VRO. Seriously man you need to read up on this stuff.

ryanstewart wrote: »

Snatch squad is exactly what it was - they crept up her driveway within minutes of the TV crews leaving - they had obviously been watching the house waiting on them to go - fortunately UTV got back to film the events - it probably does sound far fetched to some people, but this is actually happening up here - and don't be so petty about being in shock!

It happens all over the country on a daily basis!

Cookie_Monster

ryanstewart wrote: »

. And as far as a new car, it's an 02 - eigth years old. When the laws were changed re provisional driving licences, was there a mess when they gave people time to sort themselves out - no!

Its still a new (2nd hand) car to her!!! (or anyone else in that position)

smash

ryanstewart wrote: »

1. Assuming 50000 vehicles are registered, paying on average €500 in road tax, plus €100 as a one-off registration fee, this would generate approximately €130,000,000 over the next 5 years in Road Tax. These vehicles are already on the road however road tax is currently being paid to a foreign government, mainly the UK. There would also be significant cost savings from less requirement of enforcement by Customs & Excise.

This would reduce the tax take from the rest of the country.... which is a lot bigger than Donegal.

ryanstewart wrote: »

2. Removal of VRT should see a huge increase in new vehicle sales, restored to near 2008 levels. Also, those previously considering a 2007/2008 model should now see themselves in a position to purchase a brand new car. Assuming 100,000 new vehicles are registered, this should see VAT receipts increase by approximately €175,000,000 to €340,000,000, and adding the registration fee this will add a further €14,800,000. It would also have the effect of modernising the fleet of vehicles currently on the road in Ireland, thus being more fuel efficient, and creating less CO2

It would also see a lot of people in negative equity with car loans, and a lot of used car dealers closing down.

ryanstewart wrote: »

3. Figures not yet available, although assuming 100,000 pay and display spaces exist, and excluding added revenue from enforcement of non-compliance, this would generate approximately €8,000,000 per year. See calculation attached. I believe the number of spaces available for pay and display to be a lot higher than 100,000. This will effectively act as a localise congestion charge also, and hopefully discourage non-essential use of cars in built up areas.

So you're suggesting replacing a VRT fee which is once off, and you can decide how much you want to by based on what vehicle you choose, with a fee that will hit you every day...

ryanstewart wrote: »

4. With the removal of VRT, all vehicles will automatically depreciate, and the only casualty in this would be used car dealers. As this industry is already in difficulty, it would be necessary to allow dealers time to wind down stocks, and allow a rebate on sales of cars taxable under newer CO2 based Road tax prices. It should have less of an impact on those who currently own a vehicle, as the depreciation will be across the board, and newer models will also depreciate, making their next purchase much more affordable. The rebate would be based upon a % rate of VRT already paid on the vehicle purchased, on models later than January 2008, to lessen the impact of depreciation on any remaining stock used vehicles.

Who do you suggest gives them a rebate? and if you say the government - tell me where they'll get the money?

ryanstewart wrote: »

5. By leaving CC rates or road tax in place, this will a much greater incentive for those changing their car to buy a 2008 model or newer, as they will avail of cheaper road tax in most cases, and again helping to modernise the types of cars driven on Irish roads – safer, more fuel efficient transport.

The CC based tax was abolished 2 years ago for new cars!

ryanstewart wrote: »

6. This measure would be required to slowly bring Ireland closer in line with EU objectives, by basing tax collected on usage, rather than engine emissions. A simple example is that a driver may own a 1.0 litre Renault Clio, and will fall into the cheaper tax bracket as it stands, whereas the owner of BMW X5 will fall into the higher bracket. If the BMW driver only does 5000 miles per year, and the Clio driver does 40000 miles per year, the Clio driver is obviously creating much higher CO2. This would regulate this part of the road tax, and should eventually lead to a usage-only based road tax. The initial rise would increase tax claimed by the exchequer by approximately €150,000,000. per year, followed by an incremental annual rise/reduction regarding fuel tax/road tax values.

So this usage tax is on top of the CC based tax you want to bring back?

So really what you're saying is we should get rid of the once off VRT payment, devalue every used and new car in Ireland, give motor dealers a rebate(paid for by the tax payer) yet leave existing car owners with car loans in debt, bring back CC based motor tax, add a usage tax and then add a congestion tax. Well done man, I think you've just made Ireland completely bankrupt!

furtzy

On your points

1) A VRT amnesty offered for all foreign registered vehicles to allow owners to legally import their vehicles, with a handling fee for registration similar to that of commercial vehicles, followed by payment of Irish Road Tax on these vehicles. There should be a requirement to prove that a vehicle has been in the owner’s possession for a period of time prior to the announcement of the amnesty to prevent vehicles being purchased abroad en-masse. As there is a quarterly payment available for payment of road tax, this should allow affordable transfer of vehicles for all. Heavier penalties for non-payment of Road Tax for those who have registered their vehicles, but not paid Irish road tax should also be implemented, enforced by An Garda Siochana.

I have a 2010 reg bought new in Irish republic that I paid a hefty amount of VRT on (included in purchase price). You are suggesting rewarding those who evaded tax whilst we who legimately bought cars get nothing.....cop on


2) After a period of 6 months, the removal of Vehicle Registration Tax, which should be replaced with a flat rate €100 Vehicle Registration Fee. This should be extended to all new registrations including previously exempt vehicles.


Once again I'll take the example of my car. Abolishing VRT automatically devalues my car and everyone elses. People who bought on finance or loans etc now owe way more that the car is now worth....very fair on them!

3) Tax of 20 cent on each ticket sold imposed on all public, local authority and private pay and display car parks. 10% fine imposed on all fines issued for non-compliance with parking bye-laws, and clamping/tow-away release charges. This should not be extended to residential parking schemes.

This would never amount to the value of VRT in revenue

5) Regulation of motor tax amounts. CC based calculations should remain as they are for vehicles registered pre-January 2008, as an incentive for buying a newer model.

This is already the case and there are no plans to change it

6) Increase of 4 cent per litre on Petrol and 2 cent per litre on Diesel

People in border areas (myself included) would simply buy fuel in NI

Cookie_Monster

steve06 wrote: »

So really what you're saying is we should get rid of the once off VRT payment, devalue every used and new car in Ireland, give motor dealers a rebate(paid for by the tax payer) yet leave existing car owners with car loans in debt, bring back CC based motor tax, add a usage tax and then add a congestion tax. Well done man, I think you've just made Ireland completely bankrupt!

But the "unfair" VRT will be gone so everyone will be happy.
:rolleyes:

JHMEG

ryanstewart wrote: »

6) Increase of 4 cent per litre on Petrol

Only someone who lives beside the border would suggest making fuel cheaper on the other side of it.

Gophur

ryanstewart wrote: »

If that's the case, why are the figures much lower for Louth, Monaghan, Cavan Leitrim, etc? Surely this would be representative of that? ............................

The fact that DL is practically land-locked from the rest of the Republic has a lot to do with things. People in Cavan, Monaghan and Louth, for example, have easy access to the pool of cars for sale in each of their counties, plus surrounding counties. It just so happens DL people have got into the habit of going to the UK for their cars.

For every €1,000 spent on a car in N Ireland, there is a car available for the same price in the ROI. It may be a lesser spec, but it is available. Nobody is forcing DL people to cross the Border, but, once they do, there's a tax to be paid on return.

If the Revenue OMSP price is too high, then buy a car in the Republic. Simple, and easy solution.

As for all the sympathy for the poor woman traumatised by the previous day's incident? Get real! She had yet another day to pay the VRT, but refused. Personally I hope the car is crushed.

MagicSean

ryanstewart wrote: »

I think some of you should read some of the previous posts on this - I've responded to a lot of this stuff already. I've said before that it's the method of enforcement that's illegal - whoever quoted the Finance Act 2010 fhould have a closer look re surveillance powers being restricted to offences carrying a minimum term of 5 years in prison.

I don't think those powers were used in this incident.

ryanstewart wrote: »

Also the number of people on a facebook page is not a respresentative number when it comes to support for this campaign - there are thousands more in the general public who are not on facebook who support this.

However the most vocal people on your page advocate violence against customs officers and their families and law breaking in general. In addition some of the advice given is completely false and seems to be based entirely on the Land of the Free advice with little actual knowledge added to it. Whatever your intentions for the page it is a joke now.

ryanstewart wrote: »

Thirdly, the incidents relating to Ms Davern occurred over two days - it was on the second day, when Ms Davern and her daughter were alone at home that the snatch squad landed - I had stated that there were up to 16 customs officers and 8 gardai who arrived - Sean Kelleher from customs went on the radio to say the figure was grossly overstated - there were only 12! Stop nit-picking - 12 customs men backed up by Gardai to remove a vehicle from a woman still in shock the day before?

In shock? What did she expect to happen? They let her off the day before. She clearly had no intention of registering the vehicle. Don't pretend they were all there to tackle her. Most of the officers were there to stop people interfering.

ryanstewart wrote: »

To say it's to benefit a "few thousand" motorists shows just how out of touch with this issue some people are - VRT affects EVERYONE - and there are over 100000 NI reg vehicles on Irish roads, and they are not all parked up in Donegal.

But of those 100000 how many are illegally on the road? The fact is that because of Donegals location it is a much nicer prospect to ignore VRT up there. There are plenty of customs and garda checkpoints everywhere else anyway. And while not all of us like it it is still the law. As long as you advocate breaking the law noone will respect your request to change it.

ryanstewart wrote: »

Sean Kelleher is trying to say that it is a particular problem in Donegal with a high level of non-compliance - Rubbish. After Dublin and Cork, Donegal has paid the most amount of VRT in the country - this would suggest a high level of compliance, would it not?

Without figures to back that up it suggests nothing or anything. It could also suggest that much more people in Donegal have imported cars and only a small percentage pay it.

ryanstewart wrote: »

The only reason it's happening in Donegal, is because what happens in Donegal - stays in Donegal. Because to be honest, the rest of the country doesn't give a toss about Donegal.

An unfortunate product of its geographical location. It needs more manpower and resources because it is difficult to access if help is needed.

ryanstewart wrote: »

Do some people on here also not believe that non-compliance/inability to pay/afford vehicles is a direct result of a recession? Unemployment, average wages, etc all have a direct proportional on payment of VRT. I appreciate the fact that the country needs money, but so do the people who live in it - if anything there should at least be a period of non-enforcement of it to let people get on with things until we can see some sort of recovery, and take that opportunity to sort out this mess.

If you can't pay the VRT on a car within 24 hours then don't buy it. Buy a cheaper car. Simple maths. I can't buy a house and then refuse to pay stamp duty because of the recession. Your income should be factored in before making any purchase like that.

ryanstewart wrote: »

It also didn't take that long to find this stuff out and i have been pointing the facts to people on the page and people who have contacted me, and the reason I've learned so much about this is from criticism of what we are trying to do, so I accept that some may not be happy with what we are trying to achieve by abolishing VRT, although I can't understand why. The motor industry itself is crying out for this to go, and has been for years. I also accept that some are just happy to try and pick holes in statements, which to be honest are brief snippets of what has actually happened - would you really sit down and read full essays on one particular incident? Some are trying to pick small holes and being extremely pedantic rather than sitting back and looking at the full picture, fo rthe sake of petty argument.

I've been an opponent of the VRT system since I bought my first car 10 years ago. I've written to the EU and studied the cases on importation taxes. While the VRT is against the ethos of the EU it is still a legal tax. So no matter what advice you give to avoid it you are still advising breaking or obstructing the law. You can't pick or choose the laws you live by. If you are so abhorred by the tax and enforcement of the law you can always move across the border were you can be in tax free heaven. But you want the best of both worlds and that just isn't happening.

ryanstewart wrote: »

Snatch squad is exactly what it was - they crept up her driveway within minutes of the TV crews leaving - they had obviously been watching the house waiting on them to go - fortunately UTV got back to film the events - it probably does sound far fetched to some people, but this is actually happening up here - and don't be so petty about being in shock!

Snatch squad? The fact is that due to the number of people there the extra manpower was deemed necessary to avoid any incident of assault on customs officers as your page advocated.

ryanstewart wrote: »

Proposal follows...

1) A VRT amnesty offered for all foreign registered vehicles to allow owners to legally import their vehicles, with a handling fee for registration similar to that of commercial vehicles, followed by payment of Irish Road Tax on these vehicles. There should be a requirement to prove that a vehicle has been in the owner’s possession for a period of time prior to the announcement of the amnesty to prevent vehicles being purchased abroad en-masse. As there is a quarterly payment available for payment of road tax, this should allow affordable transfer of vehicles for all. Heavier penalties for non-payment of Road Tax for those who have registered their vehicles, but not paid Irish road tax should also be implemented, enforced by An Garda Siochana.

An amnesty sounds good but only not for those already in breach of the law. If VRT is abolished those who already have a car should still be liable.

ryanstewart wrote: »

2) After a period of 6 months, the removal of Vehicle Registration Tax, which should be replaced with a flat rate €100 Vehicle Registration Fee. This should be extended to all new registrations including previously exempt vehicles.

I would agree with the flat rate.

ryanstewart wrote: »

6) Increase of 4 cent per litre on Petrol and 2 cent per litre on Diesel

And an import duty on all fuel purchased across the border?

corktina

we all have to pay our share of the total tax needed to keep things going. So long as we are all paying at the same rate, I dont care what they call it or divide it up. Were VRT to go, we'd have to pay more for something else or manage without a Hosptal or two...

ryanstewart

Some of you, again, seem to think that this is all in aid of Donegal - the idea is to apply this nationally. The figures add up to a minimum of €390 million a year and the figures estimated are extremely conservative. A realistic estimate is that it would generate approx 500 million year on year. In a Seanad debate last week when the VRT issue was raised, Fianna Fail stated that to replace VRT it would cost an extra 25-30 cent per litre on fuel - this has already been rubbished by the Commission for Taxation, and these proposals are in line with their findings. The fact is that the government are basing their rationale on the figures from 2007, when VRT was at it's highest level ever.

The figure for 2007 was 1.4 billion, the figure for 2009 was 375 million - a drop of 1 billion in two years. Even though car sales are up, Brian Lenihan himself has forecast VRT returns to be down further this year to approx 350 million, as the scrappage scheme is effectively a waiver of a portion of VRT.

What the plan aims to do, and involves implementing all six aspects, is to stabilise the amount of revenue taken in, a revenue stream less vulnerable to economic environmental changes, and taxes people based on their usage of the roads.

As for fuel increases it would harmonise the prices north and south, and you can also expect that the UK govt will inevitably raise their tax cut from fuel.

Also, the rebate scheme would be a lot less costly than the scrappage scheme the government are already involved in. The CC based emissions for road tax also still exist for models pre-July 2008, which is why I've suggested that they remain as an incentive to purchase a newer model.

The proposal for the amnesty, if you read it correctly would allow the state to now collect tax on newly registered Irish-reg vehicles. When they are NI reg, the tax goes to the UK govt.

Also as far as negative equity on new car loans is concerned, as soon as you buy a car and drive it off the forecourt, because of VRT, depreciation is harder felt, and literally thousands are wiped off the value. If VRT wasn't there, the impact of depreciation on the vehicles would be reduced significantly. Effectively anyone who has bought a new car in the republic automatically goes into negative equity as soon as they buy.

You may also not realise that with VRT present you are now paying interest on the VRT applied to your vehicle - paying interest on a tax! Without VRT, your monthly repayments would be significantly lower, as the value of the loan would be lower originally. The negative equity, and resale value of the vehicle is only relative, as it's only when you go to change the car that you notice the value, and when you do your next car purchase would be on average 25% cheaper. Therefore with lower repayments, the balance is redressed.

Just a note on the end regarding threats to customs, those posts were made by two people - one who only joined the page to make an incendiary remark and then leave, The remarks were removed immediately. There has been a story in a newspaper up here regarding the comments, however they are more than happy to clarify the situation in Mondays paper, and it was also discussed on the radio here too. It's been widely accepted that two idiots don't stand for the policies of the group and it is insulting that should be suggested. The question over the amount of VRT paid in Donegal is also fact - look it up.

Guy:Incognito

ryanstewart wrote: »

When the laws were changed re provisional driving licences, was there a mess when they gave people time to sort themselves out - no!

The laws werent changed, they just said they were going to start proper enforcement of years old lws.

But sure all the good law abiding folks were obeying the rules anyway so it didnt affect anyone.

ryanstewart

Stekelly wrote: »

The laws werent changed, they just said they were going to start proper enforcement of years old lws.

But sure all the good law abiding folks were obeying the rules anyway so it didnt affect anyone.

Your arguments are getting more petty by the day...i'm sure people who are actually taking the points made seriously will understand what i mean...and the law did change - they did away with second and third stage provisional licences

Guy:Incognito

ryanstewart wrote: »

Your arguments are getting more petty by the day...i'm sure people who are actually taking the points made seriously will understand what i mean...and the law did change - they did away with second and third stage provisional licences

How is it petty? If your going to post rubbish to try sensationalise your arguements, be prepared to be pulled up on it. The fact is, you were never allowed to drive on your own on anything except a 2nd provisional. People moanign and whinging that they were "put off the road" were idiots. The name of the licence was changed and they removed the ability to drive on a 2nd provisional (doing away with the need to have 2nd and 3rd ones) . The practical application of driving alone without a full licence hasnt changed, your still not allowed to. You can be pedantic all you like but peopel knew they were doing wrong and can have no complaints.

ryanstewart

Stekelly wrote: »

How is it petty? If your going to post rubbish to try sensationalise your arguements, be prepared to be pulled up on it. The fact is, you were never allowed to drive on your own on anything except a 2nd provisional. People moanign and whinging that they were "put off the road" were idiots. The name of the licence was changed and they removed the ability to drive on a 2nd provisional (doing away with the need to have 2nd and 3rd ones) . The practical application of driving alone without a full licence hasnt changed, your still not allowed to. You can be pedantic all you like but peopel knew they were doing wrong and can have no complaints.

So you are admitting it was legal to drive on a second provisional licence alone, and then it was made illegal - I'm not the one being pedantic here - can you get back on point with your argument, as you've just branded a huge amount of people as idiots - that's why they had to change their stance on it, as it was impossible for the public to comply. The argument is not about provisional licences.

Guy:Incognito

ryanstewart wrote: »

, as you've just branded a huge amount of people as idiots - that's why they had to change their stance on it, as it was impossible for the public to comply. .

How was it impossible for them to comply?and what makes the Irish unique in that they have to be able to jump straight in to a car , having never driven or done a test? Other countries manage ok.

ryanstewart

Stekelly wrote: »

How was it impossible for them to comply?and what makes the Irish unique in that they have to be able to jump straight in to a car , having never driven or done a test? Other countries manage ok.

I'll answer you even though you are going off topic again - I agreed with the change - I'm only using it as an example of how non-enforcement can be applied to this case! The three provisional licence thing was a joke!

MagicSean

ryanstewart wrote: »

Some of you, again, seem to think that this is all in aid of Donegal - the idea is to apply this nationally.

Its not in aid of Donegal but it would benefit people in that county more than most.

ryanstewart wrote: »

The proposal for the amnesty, if you read it correctly would allow the state to now collect tax on newly registered Irish-reg vehicles. When they are NI reg, the tax goes to the UK govt.

You are still giving an amnesty to people who have broken the law. There's no need for it. If they can't afford the car and taxes then don't buy it. If VRT is abolished the people who avoided it up until it is should be rigorously pursued.

ryanstewart wrote: »

Just a note on the end regarding threats to customs, those posts were made by two people - one who only joined the page to make an incendiary remark and then leave, The remarks were removed immediately. There has been a story in a newspaper up here regarding the comments, however they are more than happy to clarify the situation in Mondays paper, and it was also discussed on the radio here too. It's been widely accepted that two idiots don't stand for the policies of the group and it is insulting that should be suggested.

Your page is still a joke. Insulting customs, bad advice to frivers, insulting boards. Posting locations of checkpoints to help people break the law. Insulting people who post comments arguing against your stance. Let's not forget your title "It's illegal" followed by your comment "It's technically legal".

ryanstewart wrote: »

The question over the amount of VRT paid in Donegal is also fact - look it up.

You look it up. You brought it up first and claimed it showed compliance with the law in Donegal.

ryanstewart

k_mac wrote: »

Its not in aid of Donegal but it would benefit people in that county more than most.



You are still giving an amnesty to people who have broken the law. There's no need for it. If they can't afford the car and taxes then don't buy it. If VRT is abolished the people who avoided it up until it is should be rigorously pursued.



Your page is still a joke. Insulting customs, bad advice to frivers, insulting boards. Posting locations of checkpoints to help people break the law. Insulting people who post comments arguing against your stance. Let's not forget your title "It's illegal" followed by your comment "It's technically legal".



You look it up. You brought it up first and claimed it showed compliance with the law in Donegal.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/sendebates/?id=2010-05-12.207.0

Where is your evidence for that? Do you believe that all the "illegal" NI reg vehicles are parked up here? And how can you say that it will benefit Donegal more than most? EVERYONE who buys a car in the republic would benefit, and it would also benefit the Irish car industry, as car prices would actually be cheaper here than in Northern Ireland, so no-one travelling over the border to but, ie increased VAT receipts to revenue. I've answered all of these points earlier in the thread. For the last time - it's the method of enforcement which is illegal - on the amnesty point, that's why it's called an "amnesty"! I'm not going to keep repeating the answers every couple of days. If you are seriously interested in a constructive debate, try reading the thread first, rather than throwing in your two bob's worth for the sake argument.

Mc Love

Cars in NI arent even that cheaper with cars down here, suppose its up to the car you choose. I would travel to the UK to purchase a car, as there is a lot more choice
I would be in favour or removal of VRT - but its likely to lead to taxes/charges in another sector.

ryanstewart

Mc Love wrote: »

Cars in NI arent even that cheaper with cars down here, suppose its up to the car you choose. I would travel to the UK to purchase a car, as there is a lot more choice
I would be in favour or removal of VRT - but its likely to lead to taxes/charges in another sector.

Have a look earlier mc love - affordable proposal on replacing it posted on here already

MagicSean

ryanstewart wrote: »

http://www.kildarestreet.com/sendebates/?id=2010-05-12.207.0

Where is your evidence for that? Do you believe that all the "illegal" NI reg vehicles are parked up here? And how can you say that it will benefit Donegal more than most? EVERYONE who buys a car in the republic would benefit, and it would also benefit the Irish car industry, as car prices would actually be cheaper here than in Northern Ireland, so no-one travelling over the border to but, ie increased VAT receipts to revenue. I've answered all of these points earlier in the thread. For the last time - it's the method of enforcement which is illegal - on the amnesty point, that's why it's called an "amnesty"! I'm not going to keep repeating the answers every couple of days. If you are seriously interested in a constructive debate, try reading the thread first, rather than throwing in your two bob's worth for the sake argument.

My evidence is simply the geographical location of Donegal. They have more acces to the NI market and less access to the Republic. It's not a personal attack on Donegal people.

If the method really is illegal why don't you challenge it in the courts. With almost 10,000 people in your group surely you can all chip in for the costs. And all the people who have their cars seized for having no road tax or insurance can join in too.

I have read the thread and have already pointed out a large amount of things which you have ignored. I suggest going back over it yourself.

Cookie_Monster

ryanstewart wrote: »

Also as far as negative equity on new car loans is concerned, as soon as you buy a car and drive it off the forecourt, because of VRT, depreciation is harder felt, and literally thousands are wiped off the value. If VRT wasn't there, the impact of depreciation on the vehicles would be reduced significantly. Effectively anyone who has bought a new car in the republic automatically goes into negative equity as soon as they buy.

Depreciation is not measured in absolute but as a %, the impact of depreciation would be the same regardless of VRT.

And you don't buy cars for equity purposes, negative equity does not come into it, they are a finite wasting asset and should really be treated as an expense.

You may also not realise that with VRT present you are now paying interest on the VRT applied to your vehicle - paying interest on a tax!

why are you asuming everyone is using loans to buy their cars?

Guy:Incognito

ryanstewart wrote: »

You may also not realise that with VRT present you are now paying interest on the VRT applied to your vehicle - paying interest on a tax!

Yet theres no major issue paying interest on the VAT? What about any purchase made with credit that involves tax of some sort? Houses, TV's etc.

How people choose to finance their car purchase is of no interest or relevance to the government.

Fracture

lol people in here seem to love just arguing more than anything else, just blabbering out stupid crap for the sake of arguement. If vrt was lowered to a price that isnt way over the top there would be no problem.