Dublin Bus Network Review

Stevek101

markpb wrote: »

DB have put up a Network Direct poster at a bus stop on the Swords road (on Shantalla flyover) explaining all about the changes to the N11 routes. The only change affecting this bus route is the cancellation of the 746 and yet DB felt the need to remove *all* the timetables so they could put up this poster.

That's been up for over a month. Most of them have been replaced with the new style timetables.

markpb

Stevek101 wrote: »

That's been up for over a month. Most of them have been replaced with the new style timetables.

Why bother putting up ND posters? It's not like the actual timetables changed, just the format that they printed them in.

Stevek101

markpb wrote: »

Why bother putting up ND posters? It's not like the actual timetables changed, just the format that they printed them in.

The 746 timetable was on the posters; that had to go. A delay in printing meant all the stops to/from Dublin Airport on the Swords corridor were left without timetables for a while. Most of the stops have the poster now. Drop them a line if there are still stops without timetables.

The RTPI will be going live soon on that corridor. No need for timetables then.

stop

An 84 timetable eventually appeared in the no.10 shelter in Belfield about a week ago, of course, the 10 timetable was removed in the process, even though it's still running until this Saturday.

trellheim

The RTPI will be going live soon on that corridor. No need for timetables then

Isn't that a particularly silly comment ?

RTPI wouldn't be able to tell me when the next bus nearest 7pm comes.

markpb

Stevek101 wrote: »

The 746 timetable was on the posters; that had to go. A delay in printing meant all the stops to/from Dublin Airport on the Swords corridor were left without timetables for a while.

Why remove the posters if the replacement posters weren't ready? Surely it would make more sense to leave the existing ones there with a note saying that the 746 has been cancelled. It would be easy to miss the note about the 746 on the N11 ND posters, more so because most people will look at it and immediately think it had nothing to do with them.

atlantean

markpb wrote: »

DB have put up a Network Direct poster at a bus stop on the Swords road (on Shantalla flyover) explaining all about the changes to the N11 routes. The only change affecting this bus route is the cancellation of the 746 and yet DB felt the need to remove *all* the timetables so they could put up this poster.

Another senseless move!

stop wrote: »

An 84 timetable eventually appeared in the no.10 shelter in Belfield about a week ago, of course, the 10 timetable was removed in the process, even though it's still running until this Saturday.

We only got the new timetables in the door last week telling us about the changes — never before have I seen a "Local" timetable include routes to Harristown on it — well not when it is delivered to people who live at the end of the 84 route anyway! It included the route 4 but does not have the 45 on it!

thomasj

Is there Anywhere we can get information on timeline the rtpi implementation for each corridor and any idea when the website enhancements will be available

Also when db are finished can they sell the concept to Irish rail so that we can be more aware of the times of maynooth line trains the delays of trains and lack of notice over the last few weeks has been a complete joke!

mikemac

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

definitly, getting rid of outdated numbers like 46a and rationalising them way down. there was no reason to drop the 10 instead of the 39a. Each of the QBCs should be given a group of numbers 1-10, 11-20, 21-31 etc and all routes based off that, with other services taking numbers as appropriate.

They did this in Belfast about 6 years ago with the Metro bus service
Selected a number of key routes and and renumbered them and then each route would have branch route but it still used the main number.
It was far simpler to understand, I've explained it badly though

KC61

Stevek101 wrote: »

The 746 timetable was on the posters; that had to go. A delay in printing meant all the stops to/from Dublin Airport on the Swords corridor were left without timetables for a while. Most of the stops have the poster now. Drop them a line if there are still stops without timetables.

The RTPI will be going live soon on that corridor. No need for timetables then.

Still not good enough - it gives a very bad impression to customers.

The Network Direct project has several elements to it:
1) Network redesign
2) Public Timetable redesign
3) Driver/Bus Roster redesign
4) Customer Information - Online
5) Customer Information - On Street

For the N11 implementation, steps 1, 2, and 4 were reasonable (with the exceptions of route 4 which was cut back too much, and route 84 which should have been half-hourly), however I would contend that steps 3 and 4 were handled appallingly.

With regard to step 3, too many buses were withdrawn and running times in many cases were far too tight if not impossible. This has still to be fully addressed, with the result that staff confidence in the changes is reduced to rock bottom.

With regard to step 5, having the right information on bus stops at the time that the timetables change is vital - particularly in the case of route 4 where the service was dramatically cut back. The changes are too great not to have up to date information on street. To say that printing was delayed is not good enough. This is not something that can be implemented piecemeal. All of the five stages above need to be co-ordinated properly. Otherwise public confidence in the process is reduced to zero.

To not have any timetables at the Airport but rather an N11 poster is crazy. What should have been done is the 746 timetable covered over if they didn't have new sheets printed. This is basic stuff.

With respect saying that RTPI is on the way is not good enough - people need to have the right information at the time that the changes are made.

Stevek101

trellheim wrote: »

Isn't that a particularly silly comment ?

RTPI wouldn't be able to tell me when the next bus nearest 7pm comes.

Bit of sarcasm there.

KC61

thomasj wrote: »

Is there Anywhere we can get information on timeline the rtpi implementation for each corridor and any idea when the website enhancements will be available

Also when db are finished can they sell the concept to Irish rail so that we can be more aware of the times of maynooth line trains the delays of trains and lack of notice over the last few weeks has been a complete joke!

At the moment Clontarf, Ringsend, Harristown and Summerhill depots are completed in terms of fitting out with the new control system (AVLC), which in turn facilitates the rollout of RTPI.

Donnybrook 1 and 2, Phibsboro and Conyngham Road are next to be done. These are targeted I understand to be completed by early 2011.

The intial rollout will be on corridors served by the four depots already completed, so I would imagine that the Howth Road, Malahide Road, Swords Road, Finglas Road, Rathfarnham QBC, Rathmines/Templeogue QBC, and Greenhills/Tallaght will probably the first to be kitted out. These are fully operated by those depots.

The rest will follow once the other depots are AVLC operational.

atlantean

KC61 wrote: »

For the N11 implementation, steps 1, 2, and 4 were reasonable (with the exceptions of route 4 which was cut back too much, and route 84 which should have been half-hourly), however I would contend that steps 3 and 4 were handled appallingly.

With regard to step 3, too many buses were withdrawn and running times in many cases were far too tight if not impossible. This has still to be fully addressed, with the result that staff confidence in the changes is reduced to rock bottom.

With regard to the 84 route — the general consensus that I have heard is that [1] it no longer goes to the city centre. [2] it now goes all over the world to get from one terminus to another which takes way to long. [3] the last bus from Bray is to early now that it no longer leaves at 00.00 and only works out to Newcastle but does not work back into Bray!

The hourly/half hourly debate comes behind the above from what I have heard people complaining about! We were use to a poor departure service but at least we could plan around this. Now we either don't have buses or those that are around take an age to get where they are going. Transferring from one route to another to complete a trip that once could be covered using a single route is not what people in Kilcoole, Newcastle and surrounding areas want!

stop

atlantean wrote: »

Transferring from one route to another to complete a trip that once could be covered using a single route is not what people in Kilcoole, Newcastle and surrounding areas want!

This is something they will have to get over. Of course the buses they're transferring to and from should be reliable, which at the moment are not.

The lack of a proper hub at Cherrywood is also a joke.

KC61

atlantean wrote: »

With regard to the 84 route — the general consensus that I have heard is that [1] it no longer goes to the city centre. [2] it now goes all over the world to get from one terminus to another which takes way to long. [3] the last bus from Bray is to early now that it no longer leaves at 00.00 and only works out to Newcastle but does not work back into Bray!

The hourly/half hourly debate comes behind the above from what I have heard people complaining about! We were use to a poor departure service but at least we could plan around this. Now we either don't have buses or those that are around take an age to get where they are going. Transferring from one route to another to complete a trip that once could be covered using a single route is not what people in Kilcoole, Newcastle and surrounding areas want!

I cannot imagine that the numbers travelling all the way to the city on the 84 from Kilcoole or Newcastle are that great, especially given the peak hour 84X. But allowing for that, if the running time issues that I referred to above were not present with the 145 timetable, there would not be an issue in changing buses as there ought to be a wait of no more than 10 minutes - however that has not turned out to be the case. That is the problem.

The only change in routing to the 84 between Newcastle and UCD is a short loop at Cherrywood and all buses now go via the station. Ideally people should be changing on Bray Main Street to the 145.

The other problem is that the 84 timetable was not integrated with the 184 south of Bray, with the result that the two operate within 5 minutes of each other.

And I have to ask how many people would use a bus at 00:30 from Newcastle to Bray?????

atlantean

stop wrote: »

This is something they will have to get over.

Why? It is hardly an improvement to the service! Other routes have been extended and the spin DB put on these changes was that it was to improve the service to the public! Fair enough, but then telling people who live on the outer limits of the 84 route that "they will have to get over" their route being shortened is something that these people will find hard to accept!

Cool Mo D

atlantean wrote: »

Why? It is hardly an improvement to the service! Other routes have been extended and the spin DB put on these changes was that it was to improve the service to the public! Fair enough, but then telling people who live on the outer limits of the 84 route that "they will have to get over" their route being shortened is something that these people will find hard to accept!

It would be an improvement to the service if a shorter, more frequent 84 was meeting another frequent route (the 145) instead of a longer, infrequent direct route. That was the original idea, but it was half-arsed, so now the 84 is the worst of both worlds.

Cookie_Monster

atlantean wrote: »

Why? It is hardly an improvement to the service! Other routes have been extended and the spin DB put on these changes was that it was to improve the service to the public! Fair enough, but then telling people who live on the outer limits of the 84 route that "they will have to get over" their route being shortened is something that these people will find hard to accept!

why?

1. having direct buses from ther CC to every little village 20 miles outside Dublin is a pointless waste of resources.
2. its not even in Dublin anyway so BE should be covering it really
3. a short higher frequency route (what it should have been) linking directly to a more direct high frequency trunk route is a much better proposal all round, it now links to the DART, 145 and Luas providing much more frequent and reliable services
4. the 84 was never busy enough to justify it anyway

atlantean

KC61 wrote: »

I cannot imagine that the numbers travelling all the way to the city on the 84 from Kilcoole or Newcastle are that great, especially given the peak hour 84X.

Probably not huge numbers as you say but any time I used the service in the past I would nearly always go into the city centre and there would always be a good number of people on the bus when it reached the terminus.

I can't see myself using the service at all now TBH!

We should be trying to encourage people to use public transport — not making it more difficult for them to use!

KC61 wrote: »

And I have to ask how many people would use a bus at 00:30 from Newcastle to Bray?????

There use to be a fair few — we for that hour of the night anyway. Thursday Friday and Saturday I would see a lot going into Bray for a later drink!

As for the numbers question — we should be looking at offering a public service. The bus has to go back to Bray anyway — why go back empty? The vehicle still uses diesel and the driver has to be paid to drive from Newcastle to Bray.

atlantean

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

2. its not even in Dublin anyway so BE should be covering it really

LOL — BE has never covered this area!

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

4. the 84 was never busy enough to justify it anyway

The 84 was never busy enough? Are you joking, right?



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Cookie_Monster

atlantean wrote: »

The 84 was never busy enough? Are you joking, right?

I used to get it in to UCD/ Stillorgan /home to Cabinteely as, aside from the one around school times, it was always deserted and much much faster than any other bus.

KC61

atlantean wrote: »

Probably not huge numbers as you say but any time I used the service in the past I would nearly always go into the city centre and there would always be a good number of people on the bus when it reached the terminus.

I can't see myself using the service at all now TBH!

We should be trying to encourage people to use public transport — not making it more difficult for them to use!

With respect the relevant question is how many people were using it all the way through. The 47 has replaced it at the inner end so whether there were many on the 84 at the end is irrelevant.

As Cookie Monster says a 30 minute frequency 84 feeding into a reliable 10 minute frequency 145 would have been the ideal solution. The problem is that councillors in Greystones kicked up a fuss over the 84 being curtailed to Cherrywood and the 145 has reliability issues, which hopefully will be sorted sooner rather than later.

atlantean wrote: »

There use to be a fair few — we for that hour of the night anyway. Thursday Friday and Saturday I would see a lot going into Bray for a later drink!

As for the numbers question — we should be looking at offering a public service. The bus has to go back to Bray anyway — why go back empty? The vehicle still uses diesel and the driver has to be paid to drive from Newcastle to Bray.

I would say that it boils down to driver hours - I suspect it takes the direct route back and that there are is insufficient time in the drivers' roster to make it back to Bray in service.

thomasj

A slight aside, re route 38/a the busstop on o'connell street for the 38/a is changed from Monday. It will now serve the current 10/46a busstop OQ two stops down. In typical DB style the notice refers to the "38 towards UCD"

KC61

thomasj wrote: »

A slight aside, re route 38/a the busstop on o'connell street for the 38/a is changed from Monday. It will now serve the current 10/46a busstop OQ two stops down. In typical DB style the notice refers to the "38 towards UCD"

I give up!

AlekSmart

Speaking personally,I feel that the 46A/145 fiasco has masked some quite alarming deficiencies in the ND programme elsewhere.

For sure the manner in which the 47,63 and 84 routes have been "Improved" is certainly open to debate,something which simply is not occurring,either internally or externally.

I cannot state strongly enough how important I see Cherrywood as a Public Transport Location,particularly as it really is a bare canvas now,free from the restrictions which might have hindered operations if the place had been up and running.

This sort of unfocused approach is becoming somewhat worrying,escpecially as I predict a resurgence of Public Transport demand as the Fianna Fáil imposed depression continues to cut deeper into the ordinary citizen in it`s attempt to keep Roman Abramovich style "Bondholders" free from losses.

The Strand Street Terminal is another project which had/has significant potential for improvement and efficiency,yet which now lies as dead as a dodo..why ?

Whilst I share KC61`s belief that Network Direct as a concept is a positive one for Dublin Bus,I am less acceptant of the manner in which Phase 1`s implosion has been "put down to experience" and the remainder of the programme carried on as if all was hunky-dory.

Feelingstressed has a very valid point here re the Belfast experience on the exact same topic....

They did this in Belfast about 6 years ago with the Metro bus service
Selected a number of key routes and and renumbered them and then each route would have branch route but it still used the main number.
It was far simpler to understand, I've explained it badly though

The warnings were all very clear in the lead-up to Phase 1,with probably the main one being the apparent willingness to cave-in to targeted "Public Consultation" results which allowed the basics of the Deloitte Report to be warped and reissued as something totally at variance with the original intentions.

If this continues,and worryingly,it seems thus,then Deloitte simply wasted their time and our money putting their report together.

I`m mindful of Seamus Brennans invite to Senor Melis of the Madrid Metro all those years ago....

"How did yiz do it" sez Seamus....

"Well a Sheamais"..sez Senor Melis..."First you agree a Plan...Fully !..then you work 24/7/365 until it`s implimented"

I know Seamus is long gone (RIP),but have we really failed to grasp good simple information when it`s offered ???

Pigwidgeon

KC61 wrote: »

I cannot imagine that the numbers travelling all the way to the city on the 84 from Kilcoole or Newcastle are that great, especially given the peak hour 84X. But allowing for that, if the running time issues that I referred to above were not present with the 145 timetable, there would not be an issue in changing buses as there ought to be a wait of no more than 10 minutes - however that has not turned out to be the case. That is the problem.

The only change in routing to the 84 between Newcastle and UCD is a short loop at Cherrywood and all buses now go via the station. Ideally people should be changing on Bray Main Street to the 145.

The other problem is that the 84 timetable was not integrated with the 184 south of Bray, with the result that the two operate within 5 minutes of each other.

And I have to ask how many people would use a bus at 00:30 from Newcastle to Bray?????

I get the 84 twice a day, 4 times a week, and it's very rare that it sticks to it's new timetabled route. 1 in every 5 or 6 would go into Stillorgan Village, a lot of them bypass Bray Dart Station and I've been on several that have bypassed Cherrywood. Some skip all 3.

KC61

kateos2 wrote: »

I get the 84 twice a day, 4 times a week, and it's very rare that it sticks to it's new timetabled route. 1 in every 5 or 6 would go into Stillorgan Village, a lot of them bypass Bray Dart Station and I've been on several that have bypassed Cherrywood. Some skip all 3.

I'm not doubting that there are problems.

I've already made the point that the running times are not satisfactory - this still needs to be addressed so that the public timetable can actually be delivered.

Similar problems exist on the 145 and to a lesser extent on the 63 and 46a.

Flukey

I suppose the best thing you could say about phase 1 of Network They Wrecked is that it has been a complete failure. There have been those young ladies handing out notices about changes to the 10 for the next phase, so they've at least learned something. Still, having gone through the experience and seen the problems these "improvements" have caused, I do feel sorry for those who will have them inflicted on them next week.

dfx-

Thanks to a leaflet left in the luggage space of AV99 operating a 69 last night and helpful enthusiasts, I found out the 51B/C/68/69 are moving to Hawkins St. Would've been nice to know as a regular user of them..

I can see lots of surprised prospective customers on the quays on Monday to see only the 78A and 79....

What was that about real time passenger information, how's about any time passenger information..

xper

KC61 wrote: »

I give up!

I wish the Network Direct team would give up.:rolleyes: