Fake Al-Qaeda provoking Islamaphobia

Brown Bomber

bonkey wrote: »

Actually, no. That's an assumption we make. It may be a reasonable assumption, but the reality is that there are other possibilities as to how the gun came into this guys possession before the point it was detected, other than the explanation that it passed undetected through several airports.

It was a legally registered gun in Israel. It was smuggled somehow from occupied Palestine to Britain, passing through security checks.

Again this is from the solicitors of the case site.

Indeed this breach of security lead to a major overhaul of security at the airport.

If it was not possible to breach security with a partly plastic gun then there would be nothing to overhaul, nevermind a major overhaul.

bonkey wrote: »

By nature of it having been undetected, there is no evidence of it passing through those airports. In fact, it is the very people we are being told to distrust who we must believe in order to accept that it passed through these checks.

I remember this case. The prosecution never laboured your point at all, only tried to raise doubt as to if it was possible to forget he had a gun in his hand luggage. That says a lot for me. For him to be acquitted it would have to be proven that his particular handgun could pass through security measures.

bonkey wrote: »

Then, with respect, it is diisingenuous to be responding to arguments concerning the nature of guns with dismissal and "lol" style comments, when the appropriate response should have been "I have no idea if what you say is correct or not".


This lack of doubt being based on your self-admitted lack of knowledge.

Without trying to be insulting, I would point you at my signature.


No-one has suggested otherwise. THey ahve pointed out, that it is mostly made of metal, and meets all legal standards for being detectable by the relevant security scanners.

Yeah, the standard consumer model by law would have to detectable by security scanners. The fact that the Israelis passed through metal detectors in Mexican Congress further strengthens the case that they were intelligence agents.

The Chronicle
Quote:
Beatriz Paredes, president of the Chamber of Deputies, said: ...that the Glock pistol was specially made of plastic to evade detection systems.

Salvador Ansalgo Trapaga, the agent that disarmed one of the suspects stated that the handgun was a 9 mm Glock (plastic) pistol, very hard to detect by the metal detectors at the entrance.

Original Spanish: Salvador Ansaldo Trápaga, el empleado de Seguridad de la Cámara de Diputados que desarmó al israelí , dijo entonces a Tren Parlamentario: “era una escuadra 9 milímetros luck plástica, de las modernas, indetectables por los arcos electrónicos”
http://web.archive.org/web/20020117001538/http://www.correo-gto.com.mx/2001/octubre/111001/otrasvoces8.html

Above it is confirmed by two key sources. An arresting security officer and the President of The Chamber of Deputies

Di0genes

Brown Bomber wrote: »

http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpapers15%5Cpaper1487.html

Nice job on the selective quoting.

Other parts of the article.

Firstly, the Afghan jihad against the Soviet troops. The intelligence agencies of the US, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan used the madrasas for radicalising the Muslim youth and motivating them to join the Afghan Mujahideen in their jihad against the Soviet troops.

In April,1992, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) asked the madrasas controlled by the religious fundamentalist organisations to declare a vacation to enable the students to join the Afghan Mujahideen in their final assault on Kabul, which led to the collapse of the Najibullah Government. The ISI issued them arms and ammunition at the border before they crossed over into Afghanistan. Similarly, in September ,1996. the ISI asked these madrasas to declare a vacation to enable their students to assist the Taliban in its final assault on Kabul. They came back to the madrasas and resumed their studies after the Taliban had captured Kabul. The Taliban was and continues to be made up of the products of the madrasas, Afghans as well as Pakistanis.

Out of curiosity where is this database? If it exists. How did the mudajdeen need the CIA to create this?

I'm not going to respond to this any further. It is quite clear what Robin Cook intended to say. And I'll say it one further time. Al-Qaeda was "originally" a computer file of names of Mujahideen soliders who had been recruited, armed, and trained by the CIA to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.

Thats your dogmatic interpretation. Lovely "What he meant to say". How do you know what his intention was really was.

Cook states that Afghanistan rebels were funded by the CIA. No one disputes this. However he does not support your assertion that the CIA created Al Qaeda.

You seem to be floundering now.

studiorat

In Die Hard 2, the character John McClane portrayed by Bruce Willis specifically referred to a non-existent Glock 7 with many fictitious characteristics:

That punk pulled a Glock 7 on me! You know what that is? It's a porcelain gun made in Germany. It doesn't show up on your airport X-ray machines, and it costs more than you make here in a month!

Furthermore, if a pistol completely undetectable by either X-ray machines or metal detectors were to be developed, the ammunition inside would still be detectable.

Mike Papac, an armorer at Cinema Weaponry, which supplied the Glock pistols used in Die Hard 2, has stated, "I remember when we did that scene, I tried to talk them out of it. There's no such thing as a gun invisible to metal detectors, and there shouldn't be, but they wouldn't budge. They had it written into the script and that was that.

http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/Glock#.22Plastic_pistol.22_myths


“The Century’s 10 Most Influential Pistols” starting on page 30:

“With the Glock’s introduction came an outcry from stupid politicians and ignorant news reporters that this was a ‘Plastic Pistol’ designed to defeat Metal Detectors and Airport X-Ray Scanners. The Slide, Barrel, and Springs used to build the Glock Pistol are ALL made of STEEL, and will set off a metal detector just as surely as any other firearm”.

All Glocks feature polymer frames made out of a high-tech plastic polymer called Nylon 6. Glock barrels and slides are made from quality 4140 Steel which has been treated with a special "Tenifer" process, which is a diamond hard coating that seals out moisture and corrosion. This colorless carbo-nitrate formula enriches the steel with oxygen, sealing its pores. Tenifer makes the steel extremely hard (as hard as industrial diamond on the Rockwell scale) and corrosion resistant. The surface you come into contact with the most (the outside of the slide) is actually a plastic coating over the Tenifer.



Glock handguns all have three safety mechanisms: 1) the trigger safety, 2) the firing pin safety, and c) the drop safety. The only way a Glock handgun will fire is for the trigger to be pulled fully to the rear. The Glock is neither a technically true Single Action, nor a Double Action. Glock calls its action the "Safe Action", which is close to a Double Action.



Some of the Steel parts used in EVERY GLOCK:



01 - Slide - Steel

02 - Barrel - Steel

03 - Recoil spring assembly - Steel

04 - Firing pin - Steel

05 - Firing pin spring - Steel

06 - Firing pin safety spring - Steel

07 - Extractor - Steel

08 - Extractor depressor plunger spring - Steel

09 - Magazine catch spring - Steel

10 - Slide lock spring - Steel

11 - Slide lock - Steel

12 - Trigger spring - Steel

13 - Slide stop lever - Steel

14 - Magazine spring – Steel



Current Glock Models Available:



Glock 17 - Standard 9mm, 17 round magazine

Glock 17L - Competition 9mm (long barrel), 17 round magazine.

Glock 18 - Select Fire 9mm (full-auto capable - LE or Military Only) 33 round magazine

Glock 19 - Compact 9mm, 15 round magazine

Glock 20 - Standard 10mm, 15 round magazine

Glock 21 - Standard .45-cal., 13 round magazine

Glock 22 - Standard .40-cal., 15 round magazine

Glock 23 - Compact .40-cal., 13 round magazine

Glock 24 - Competition - Long Slide .40-cal., 15 round magazine

Glock 25 - Compact .380 auto, 15 round magazine (not available in US)

Glock 26 - Sub-compact 9mm, 10 round magazine

Glock 27 - Sub-compact .40-cal., 9 round magazine

Glock 28 - Sub-compact .380 auto, 10 round magazine (not available in US)

Glock 29 - Sub-compact 10mm, 10 round magazine

Glock 30 - Sub-compact .45-cal., 10 round magazine

Glock 31 - Standard .357 Sig, 15 round magazine

Glock 32 - Compact .357 Sig, 13 round magazine

Glock 33 - Sub-compact .357 Sig, 9 round magazine

Glock 34 - Practical-Tactical 9mm competition pistol, 17 round magazine

Glock 35 - Practical-Tactical .40-cal. competition pistol, 15 round magazine

Glock 36 - Slimline .45-cal., 6 round magazine

Glock 37 - Standard .45 GAP, 10 round magazine



This is a complete list of ALL Glock Models available. EVERY SINGLE GLOCK MODEL contains the Steel parts mentioned above!

http://home.myfairpoint.net/vzeo1z2a/MythPlasGun.htm

studiorat

Brown Bomber wrote: »

The fact that the Israelis passed through metal detectors in Mexican Congress further strengthens the case that they were intelligence agents.

Absolutely, not the fact that security was crap, it must have been that they were spies. :rolleyes:

More like the bloody things were turned off and the security guy was covering his ass.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Yeah, the standard consumer model by law would have to detectable by security scanners.

You aren't getting this. They have steel in them to prevent them from warping, nothing to do with any laws except the laws of physics.

Brown Bomber

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Much like this scary looking "Muslim" Yousef Al-Khattab.



Jihadi "Al-Khattab" is actually Daniel Cohen, a New York (former) Jew. :rolleyes:

Al-Khatabb strikes again.

Exposed: Israeli was behind Muslim ‘extremist group’

Written by (Author ) World Apr 28, 2010 A Popular American cartoon show, South Park, which is no stranger to controversy, recently censored a show because they received death threats from a Muslim group.
The right wing media jumped at the chance to further demonise Muslims by highlighting the story as much as possible, but what they failed to tell you is that the Radical Muslim group that made the threats was apparently founded and run by Joseph Cohen, a former Israeli Radical who use to live in a settlement in the West Bank. Joseph Cohen (aka Yousef al-Khattab) apparently:


“Grew up in a Jewish neighborhood in New York and attending a orthodox rabbinical school in Israel, Joseph Cohen went to live in a settlement in the West Bank to help steal Palestinian land from Palestinians. His story is that he “converted” to Islam after meeting someone in a chat room.”


This is not the first time people have masqueraded as Muslims to demonise them and it probably won’t be the last. What is criminal is how the media lap up the story without checking facts and then failing to apologise. One only has to look at the media attention thrown at Al Muhajiroon and the recent Glen Jenvey/Sun saga.

http://www.daily.pk/exposed-israeli-was-behind-muslim-extremist-group-16855/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+dailypk+%28Pakistan+Daily

Brown Bomber

studiorat wrote: »

You aren't getting this. They have steel in them to prevent them from warping, nothing to do with any laws except the laws of physics.

Wrong.

H.R.4445
Title: Undetectable Firearms Act of 1988
Sponsor: Rep Hughes, William J. [NJ-2] (introduced 4/21/1988) Cosponsors (17)
Related Bills: H.R.2845, S.2180
Latest Major Action: 11/10/1988 Became Public Law No: 100-649.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d100:HR04445:@@@L&summ2=m&

robtri

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Wrong.

H.R.4445
Title: Undetectable Firearms Act of 1988
Sponsor: Rep Hughes, William J. [NJ-2] (introduced 4/21/1988) Cosponsors (17)
Related Bills: H.R.2845, S.2180
Latest Major Action: 11/10/1988 Became Public Law No: 100-649.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d100:HR04445:@@@L&summ2=m&

how does this show or prove anything?????? i am a bit lost....

its a law making sure weapons makers dont make undectable weapons....

Torakx

Which means that there ARE undetectable weapons.And it could be a threat.

Brown Bomber

robtri wrote: »

how does this show or prove anything?????? i am a bit lost....

its a law making sure weapons makers dont make undectable weapons....

Sorry it wasn't clearer

It was a response to this

"Originally Posted by Brown Bomber View Post
Yeah, the standard consumer model by law would have to detectable by security scanners."

studiorat wrote: »

You aren't getting this. They have steel in them to prevent them from warping, nothing to do with any laws except the laws of physics.

"
its a law making sure weapons makers dont make undectable weapons."

What you said was pretty much what I was trying to demonstrate

Brown Bomber

Torakx wrote: »

Which means that there ARE undetectable weapons.And it could be a threat.

I think moreso it is a case of there could be.

And if there was it is permitted for the intelligence services to have them.

robtri

surely inteeligence services dont need these special weapons, they just ship them in by the dozen and label them diplomatic baggage....
when operative arrves picks them up from local contact.......

uprising2

Whoever believes plastic guns are a myth and do not exist are wrong, in a foreign land I was handed a plastic "toy" gun, to my surprise the man then took it apart, loaded it to capacity, 1 bullet, then shot it, it used rimfire .22 ammo. So I know that plastic firing guns do exist.

PirateShampoo

uprising2 wrote: »

Whoever believes plastic guns are a myth and do not exist are wrong, in a foreign land I was handed a plastic "toy" gun, to my surprise the man then took it apart, loaded it to capacity, 1 bullet, then shot it, it used rimfire .22 ammo. So I know that plastic firing guns do exist.

Gonna call BS on that 1 mate.

Torakx

Ye i seen it in movies the ole one bullet plastic gun trick.
Must not exist if it was in a fictional movie

uprising2

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Gonna call BS on that 1 mate.

You 100% sure about that?, I was in thailand and a homemade gun fired a live round.
Bullet was put into thick plastic square barrel, barrel slid down onto handle, gun was cocked, thick elastic band was the hammer spring, trigger pulled, BANG.

"Plastic, Plastic, no metal" he told me, this was a crude piece of equipment, but it did fire a shot.
I was offered to buy it for 1000baht (€20 at the time), I declined.

Call BS all you like, sooner or later you will see one somewhere, news or whatever, some "terrorist" will be caught with one.

Mahatma coat

anyone remember this


A very feasible study in how to make a weapon specifically designed to be smuggled through a metal detector

anyone remember how he smuggled the Spring and the Rounds (metal parts) in?????



Plastic weapons are feasible with our current technology levels

Wibbs

They're defo feasible, though pistols like the Glock etc aren't hard to spot. Many metal parts and even when stripped down to the basics they still stand out like a sore thumb on xray scanners.

To do it you would want the disassembled pistol to not look "gun like". It would have to be disassembled as any useful smallarm put together is going to look like one as its a very evolved design that fits the hand. "gun" is a very potent shape for people and as pattern recognition masters we'd spot it. A pen shaped pistol would be a one shot wonder and the caliber would need to be small.

That pic of Mahatma coat's looks like a good idea as the boxy look would throw the eye. Any links?

Mahatma coat

that gun is from the movie Ín the Line of fire'



Heres another interestin little one that was confiscated from some Mafiosa a few years back


similar principal, but its a good workaround the need for metl parts.

there are loads of examples of weapons designed for smuggling.

modern weapons contain a lot of non metal parts, compare something like a Steyr to an AK47, if longevity of the weapon wasnt as big an issue most if not all of it could feasibley be replaced with Plastic parts, granted the expected life of the weapon drops from being measured in Years to Rounds, but if you had the resources and the will It could be done, granted you still have to get it through Customs, but where theres a will theres a way

uprising2

Mahatma coat wrote: »

anyone remember this


A very feasible study in how to make a weapon specifically designed to be smuggled through a metal detector

anyone remember how he smuggled the Spring and the Rounds (metal parts) in?????



Plastic weapons are feasible with our current technology levels

Thanks mahatma, that pic aint too far off the homemade weapon I was refering to, that looks a lot more professionally made though.

PirateShampoo

Thoughs Plastc guns still have Metal parts.

studiorat

You can make a gun to look like a mobile phone, but that's not the point.

The guys in Brazil were carrying a Glock, not made entirely out of plastic and not un-scannable.

Brown Bomber

studiorat wrote: »

You can make a gun to look like a mobile phone, but that's not the point.

The guys in Brazil were carrying a Glock, not made entirely out of plastic and not un-scannable.

I agree. However, they were sufficently plastic to pass through the metal detectors.

According to reports before the media blackout (which I have already posted)

The Chronicle
Quote:
Beatriz Paredes, president of the Chamber of Deputies, said: "As was said in the first bars were nine grenades and explosive addition of 58 bullets and three magazines were not explosives or gravity." However, he said that the Glock pistol was specially made of plastic to evade detection systems.

http://translate.google.com/translat...11&sl=es&tl=en
　
Quote:
Salvador Ansalgo Trapaga, the agent that disarmed one of the suspects stated that the handgun was a 9 mm Glock (plastic) pistol, very hard to detect by the metal detectors at the entrance. Later, they said that the grenade turned out to be a cigarette lighter shaped like a grenade. However, the guards did mention that inside the briefcase was bomb making material, pipes and detonating cables. Shortly afterwards, a man claiming to be their supervisor at a security company stated to a reporter that they were "vacationing" and that was the reason they were taking pictures. A journalist lost his cool and shouted "That's bull****! Vacationing with a handgun?"

http://www.rense.com/general17/mexbomb.htm

Beatriz Paredes - President of the Chamber of Deputies
BIO: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatriz_Paredes_Rangel

Said:

However, he said that the Glock pistol was specially made of plastic to evade detection systems.

Implying that it was an irregular model specially made to evade the detection systems. Not the typical model which we have established due to regulations imposed on its manufacturs cannot pass through metal detectors.

DO you have any reason to doubt her or the report which is corroborated by Salvador Trapaga, a guard who tackled one of the Israelis?

Di0genes

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I agree. However, they were sufficently plastic to pass through the metal detectors.

Ah so iclke pits of metal can pass through a metal detectors.

You understand that the reason firearms are mainly made out of steel/metal is that they are the only substances capable of handling the heat of rapidly fired firearms.

Oh and Mahatma Coat "In the line Fire' wasn't a study in plastic weapons, it was a freaking film. Make believe.

According to reports before the media blackout (which I have already posted)

The Chronicle
Quote:
Beatriz Paredes, president of the Chamber of Deputies, said: "As was said in the first bars were nine grenades and explosive addition of 58 bullets and three magazines were not explosives or gravity." However, he said that the Glock pistol was specially made of plastic to evade detection systems.

http://translate.google.com/translat...11&sl=es&tl=en
　

Ah so a translate. Could explain how they had semi automatic weapons made of plastic that wouldn't warp under the extreme heat of a firearm?

Quote:
Salvador Ansalgo Trapaga, the agent that disarmed one of the suspects stated that the handgun was a 9 mm Glock (plastic) pistol, very hard to detect by the metal detectors at the entrance. Later, they said that the grenade turned out to be a cigarette lighter shaped like a grenade. However, the guards did mention that inside the briefcase was bomb making material, pipes and detonating cables. Shortly afterwards, a man claiming to be their supervisor at a security company stated to a reporter that they were "vacationing" and that was the reason they were taking pictures. A journalist lost his cool and shouted "That's bull****! Vacationing with a handgun?"

http://www.rense.com/general17/mexbomb.htm

Beatriz Paredes - President of the Chamber of Deputies
BIO: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatriz_Paredes_Rangel

Said:

Yeah because I trust jeff rense as a source...:rolleyes:

Brown Bomber

Di0genes wrote: »

Ah so iclke pits of metal can pass through a metal detectors.

Evidently. Yes.

Di0genes wrote: »

You understand that the reason firearms are mainly made out of steel/metal is that they are the only substances capable of handling the heat of rapidly fired firearms.

Really?...


Source: http://www-materials.eng.cam.ac.uk/mpsite/interactive_charts/strength-temp/basic.html

Here is the properties of a ceramic available from hardsteel.com - http://www.hardsteel.com/ceramics

Mechanical Properties:

Hardness

Moh’s Scale 9

Comprehensive Strength

300,000 PSI

Flexural Strength 45,000 PSI Tensile Strength 24,000 PSI Maximum Service Temperature 2,300 Degreed (F)

And here is the specifications of a fully functional firearm, the Browning .45 ACP.

ype Pistol Place of origin United States Service history Used by NATO and others Wars World War I - present Production history Designer John Browning Designed 1904 [1] Variants .45 ACP +P, .45 Super Specifications Case type Rimless, straight Bullet diameter .452 in (11.5 mm) Neck diameter .473 in (12.0 mm) Base diameter .476 in (12.1 mm) Rim diameter .480 in (12.2 mm) Case length .898 in (22.8 mm) Overall length 1.260 in (32.0 mm) Case capacity 25 gr H2O (1.625 cm³) Rifling twist 1 in 16 in (406 mm) Primer type Large pistol Maximum pressure 21,000 psi (140 MPa) Ballistic performance Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy

Source: http://wapedia.mobi/en/.45_ACP

It is quite possible I have failed to understand part of this, but it seems to me that this particular firearm could be made with ceramic above.

Di0genes wrote: »

Ah so a translate.

Yes a translate. Perhaps you would have preferred if I posted in Spanish?

What was the point of stating the obvious?...and then not address the content at all?

The original was also posted, and is easily available through the link.

Di0genes wrote: »

Could explain how they had semi automatic weapons made of plastic that wouldn't warp under the extreme heat of a firearm?

I believe I may have. But I would welcome correction from anyone who knows what they are talking about.

Di0genes wrote: »

Yeah because I trust jeff rense as a source...:rolleyes:

I don't really care who you trust as a source. The original Spanish article that was translated on the site was already posted on this thread if memory serves correctly. Feel free to offer an alternative translation otherwise it is a shallow, disingenious dismissal based on your assumptions.

What are your assumptions based on? Do you have a source for your assumptions? IN Spanish or otherwise?

Di0genes

And your goalpost shifting is nice and all. The article claimed that the weapons were a specific kind of glocks that could be used to get around security. You and MC keep referencing fiction and theoretical concepts, that bear nothing to do with the exact make and model mentioned in the OP.

But hey, why let the facts get in way of your lurid conspiracy theories.

Incidently though your claims and charts are not the service temperatures, but the maximum temperatures. Do you understand the difference.

Di0genes

Mahatma coat wrote: »

that gun is from the movie Ín the Line of fire'

MC MC MC You do know that proton packs from Ghosbusters aren't real? Lightsabers don't exist, and you can't go in time in a DeLorean?

Brown Bomber

Di0genes wrote: »

And your goalpost shifting is nice and all. The article claimed that the weapons were a specific kind of glocks that could be used to get around security. You and MC keep referencing fiction and theoretical concepts, that bear nothing to do with the exact make and model mentioned in the OP.

But hey, why let the facts get in way of your lurid conspiracy theories.

Incidently though your claims and charts are not the service temperatures, but the maximum temperatures. Do you understand the difference.

Do you ever give up?

Ceramics are used for protection against heat on the space shuttles, and they can't according to you take the operational temperature of firing a few rounds from a pistol?

There is nothing else left to say on this.

The Thermal Protection System on the orbiter is its biggest defense to the heat encountered during re-entry. The orbiter must be able to withstand extreme temperatures and air deflections while coming back in. Every time the orbiter enters the atmosphere it loses several of these tiles, but as long as they don’t all come off in one spot the orbiter will be okay. These tiles are made of ceramic materials and must be able to withstand a temperature of nearly 3,000 oF. There are over 27,000 of these tiles on the shuttle, all just as important as the next.

PirateShampoo

Using ceramics has a heat shield and using them for a barrel of a gun is 2 different things.

Ceramics cant withstand the explosive force of the bullet. It would shatter.

Brown Bomber

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Using ceramics has a heat shield and using them for a barrel of a gun is 2 different things.

Ceramics cant withstand the explosive force of the bullet. It would shatter.

ok, why?

PirateShampoo

Brown Bomber wrote: »

ok, why?

Because if they could make it from ceramic then dont you think it would exsist?