[US/IRL] 6x04 - "The Substitute" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

sapper

I may be stating the obvious here, but after this episode the name of the pirate ship in the middle of the island takes on a new meaning...ie The Black Rock

Further proof that the writers were going this way all along?

tony1kenobi

Dubs wrote: »

How does Jacob get to and from the island? Is it because he's magic or does he have his own personal yacht or something?

Bluetooth.

youngblood

sapper wrote: »

I may be stating the obvious here, but after this episode the name of the pirate ship in the middle of the island takes on a new meaning...ie The Black Rock

Further proof that the writers were going this way all along?

Please state the obvious
Cos its lost after all!
And I havent a clue what this new meaning is!!

blue_steel

7

I think the suggestion is The Black Rock ship has some connection with the black rock on the scales in the cave and thus the Man in Black. Nice idea actually

Mr.Nice Guy

7

I saw someone mention this on another site and found it intriguing...

What if the number for Shephard that MiB showed Sawyer wasn't referring to Jack but actually to Christian? Remember that Other guy Danny in one of the early seasons angrily remarked that Jack wasn't on Jacob's list.

Sad Professor

9

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I saw someone mention this on another site and found it intriguing...

What if the number for Shephard that MiB showed Sawyer wasn't referring to Jack but actually to Christian? Remember that Other guy Danny in one of the early seasons angrily remarked that Jack wasn't on Jacob's list.

Possible. But according to Patchy, Locke and Sayid weren't on the list either. I think we just have to assume the Others were referring to another list. That cave was pretty well hidden. I doubt the Others even knew about it. Richard seemed ignorant about "candidates".

purcela

8

sprinkles wrote: »

My first problem is with the numbers. They didn't explain them they just designated a name to them. What I want to know is how are those numbers the most important when there were clearly dozens up on the wall of the cave, yet the 6 numbers were the ones that Hurley won the lottery with, that were part of the beacon, hatch numbers etc... why not the other ones?

I totally agree with this. I don't understand why everyone thinks that the numbers are now explained. We have no idea why Lenny knew them and gave them to Hurley which he then won the lottery with. We have no explanation as to why they were on the transmission that Rousseau's team heard when they arrived to the island. We don't know why Dharma had those 6 particular numbers printed on the hatch, or why they were the numbers that had to be entered into the computer.

If the explanation is simply that the 6 people who those numbers correspond to in the cave are the 6 best candidates to replace Jacob, then in my opinion this is an extremely weak explanation, as all it serves to do is show that the producers intended on having 6 important people towards the end of the show, and wanted to be able to prove that they had known all along that those 6 were crucial to the end result. But up until this episode, the people assigned each number were interchangeable. And it still doesn't explain how or why Lenny and the Dharma Initiative used those numbers!

purcela

8

A couple of people have touched on the fact that Ben previously summoned the smoke monster to kill the mercenaries after Keamy murdered Alex. This would suggest that Ben has some kind of relationship with the smoke monster. Further corroborating this theory is the fact that in LA X, when the smoke monster killed Bram and the men with him, Ben was in the room (FLocke was clearly aware of this), yet smoke monster/FLocke didn't go near Ben. Also in season 5, Dead is Dead, a similar thing happened where Locke disappeared into the jungle and the smoke monster came out and left Ben unharmed.

Given that some people believe that smoke monster can't kill candidates, perhaps Ben Linus is a candidate, although his name wasn't on the cave wall and he clearly wasn't on Oceanic 815. Or is it because he was healed in The Temple as a child, and now has a major connection with Jacob or the island.

AnonoBoy

purcela wrote: »

Given that some people believe that smoke monster can't kill candidates, perhaps Ben Linus is a candidate, although his name wasn't on the cave wall and he clearly wasn't on Oceanic 815. Or is it because he was healed in The Temple as a child, and now has a major connection with Jacob or the island.

Smokey was using Ben as part of his loophole plot so while Ben might have thought he could summon Smokey he was really just being used, just as Locke and Richard were.

I'm really liking this Smokey guy I have to say. And Terry O'Quinn in brilliant in the role.

Dman001

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I saw someone mention this on another site and found it intriguing...

What if the number for Shephard that MiB showed Sawyer wasn't referring to Jack but actually to Christian? Remember that Other guy Danny in one of the early seasons angrily remarked that Jack wasn't on Jacob's list.

Since the Season 5 finale, I thought that Christian was more on Esau's side rather than Jacob's. He was seen in the cabin where we believe Esau was and he told Locke that he would have to move the island, which but Esau's Loophole plan into action.

umpsfar

9

on jacobs death.. ur wan took some of the ash, maybe for his resurrection, flock may have been told he can't kill him (jacob) but he can put him out of action for 3 days (the bible, on jesus's death) maybe maybe,,,

totally unrelated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60T_6ubNFp4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t8cpH6AbwQ&feature=related
maybe Flock is god and enjoys killing jesus/jacob

Spiritoftheseventies

7

yes a good episode. Wonder how many were on Jacobs list if it was his list.

me-skywalker

6

Im really liking MIB's contrats to Locke in respect to the fact that Locke loved the island, he thought it was magical and didnt want to leave.. while MIB hates it, calls it a prison and wants out.... althought Sad Profs idea that him calling it a prison is not metaphorical rather literal as he if he was let loose on the world he could cause some pain to people?

Hyzepher wrote: »

I think the 23 - Sheppard is not Jack but Christian...... If it is Christian then it would mean that both Jack and Kate are not candidates.
.

maybe these two are the skeletons in the cave from s1...

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Well yes there were clues in season 1 and 2 but I think most people only copped on to it last season.

http://www.lostisagame.com/

Sad Professor wrote: »

I love the Sawyer long con idea as well.

yea he might pretend to go along with MIB then kill him so that he himself can become the MIB? maaaybe.. its a strectch but would involve him learnign the source of MIB's powers and how to control them and also how to kill him.

Sad Professor wrote: »

Also, does anyone have any thoughts on the idea that the island is basically a prison for MIB? He talked about being trapped. Given the negative view of humanity he espoused to Jacob in front of the statue, him getting loose on the world might uh, bad.

That's not to say he was lying about once being a man, but that's clearly not the case anymore. Whatever he is now he's dangerous.

Maybe Jacob is like the warden. So "protecting" the island may be about keeping MIB on it.

Just a possibility.

Yea i have always thought this since the 'candidates' thing was mention about Lapidus first as most of the characters are strong willed and independant.

Richard not knowing would be to protect the 'candidate' themselves from knowing they were being tested.

sprinkles wrote: »

Good episode, not amazing though.
Secondly, the flash sideways all seems to be a little contrived imo. It's as if the writers are just shoe horning characters into roles in the alt reality...

But if you watch it properly you will see the subtle differences in the characters personality and attitutes that reflect everything we have learned about them for 5seasons. its intriguing to see were they are going with it.

Spiritoftheseventies

7

what seems to be a recurring them is Locke and the case of the knives and this mysterious hunting expedition. There is some significance to them in terms of the central plot

homerun_homer

9

purcela wrote: »

I don't understand why everyone thinks that the numbers are now explained.

If the explanation is simply that the 6 people who those numbers correspond to in the cave are the 6 best candidates to replace Jacob, then in my opinion this is an extremely weak explanation, as all it serves to do is show that the producers intended on having 6 important people towards the end of the show, and wanted to be able to prove that they had known all along that those 6 were crucial to the end result. But up until this episode, the people assigned each number were interchangeable. And it still doesn't explain how or why Lenny and the Dharma Initiative used those numbers!

It's not that people think they've now been explained, the numbers have become more relevant and have more significance since they are directly related to the 815ers. from this point on who knows how well they will be explained but it would be like trying to explain magic. Once you know how something is done it looses mystique and less interesting.

Mr.Nice Guy

7

me-skywalker wrote: »

http://www.lostisagame.com/.

Yes it seems this guy was right about quite a lot but do you not remember how most people on this board dismissed his ideas when they were first mooted? I do.

As I said most people only started to pick up on the game references last season.

popebenny16

6

i am starting to think that there is some similarity between the relationship that Sheppard and Locke have had and that between Jacob and Smokeman. Perhaps they are replacements, it has been suggested that Smokeman is showing signs that Lockes personality is somehow coming through.

Perhaps this will end with Jack on the beach and Locke walking towards him and they seeing a ship, plane or flying saucer is coming towards the island and followed by the sideways view of how their lives could have ended up off the island.

uncleoswald

7

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Yes it seems this guy was right about quite a lot but do you not remember how most people on this board dismissed his ideas when they were first mooted? I do.

As I said most people only started to pick up on the game references last season.

Yeah that was me and its still batsh*t mental. Not in the comparing Lost to a game part (although for me the game is only a metaphor, oh god I hope its only a metaphor) which has been mentioned by many people, but in the other 99.99% of the site. Yes he predicted some correct deaths but when you look at how he predicted those deaths it becomes nothing more then a curiositly fanboy site.

jimbling

9

I had been a bit disappointed up to this point with season 6, but this episode was absolutely brilliant. Pure quality.
I wont bother going into details as we're on the 5th page and it's been done to death. But exceptional. Here's hoping for more of the same tonight.

homerun_homer wrote: »

It's not that people think they've now been explained, the numbers have become more relevant and have more significance since they are directly related to the 815ers. from this point on who knows how well they will be explained but it would be like trying to explain magic. Once you know how something is done it looses mystique and less interesting.

Agreed.... I mean the numbers are explained to a certain extent really. We know the main numbers are allocated to the main "candidates" or some such. That could be arbitrary, or it could be the seat numbering on the plane etc.
How this correlates to the rest of the numbers mystique is pretty easy to explain. I'm not going to try, but lets just say you have demi-gods of some sort in Jacob and MIB, and you have a Time-Travelling Island. Not that hard to imagine scenarios that can explain how they kept popping up. I'm sure those details will come up in time.

Psychedelic

7

The writers said in the latest podcast that the numbers will

make an appearance again soon.

LFCFan

8

dunno if it was already said but maybe the reason Smokey is now 'locked' in Lockes body is because he is dead and usually Smokey only takes on the body of the living and he can keep changing shape. Maybe that was why Ben was manipulated into killing Locke by Jacob and bringing his body back to the island because he knew what was going to happen with Smokey taking on Lockes body.

Sad Professor

9

I still think the lostisagame thing is bs. Nothing would make me hate the ending more than to find out the whole thing was literally a game. It's a while since I read it, but as I recall all that guy did was point out classic narrative, thematic and archetypical elements in the show. Stuff you'd find in any story but are more obvious (and less developed) in games.

Predicting character deaths isn't that hard. I was saying Locke was going to die and be resurrected before we even found out he was in the coffin. It's classic hero's journey stuff. The hero always dies and comes back to life, sometimes literally, sometimes metaphorically. You'll find it even in realistic dramas.

Of course, as it turns out Locke wasn't resurrected - but I'm certain that will happen (in some way) later in the season.

me-skywalker

6

Ild be bummed out in a way but then again UnLocke said to Sawyer that Jacob manipulated them all into their decisions to lead them in one way or another to the island.

If it is a game.. what is the game> that would be more interesting than just saying 'oh its a game between 2 warring gods'

homerun_homer

9

LFCFan wrote: »

dunno if it was already said but maybe the reason Smokey is now 'locked' in Lockes body is because he is dead and usually Smokey only takes on the body of the living and he can keep changing shape. Maybe that was why Ben was manipulated into killing Locke by Jacob and bringing his body back to the island because he knew what was going to happen with Smokey taking on Lockes body.

Smokie has manifested itself as;
Christian Sheppard (most likely) - Dead
Yemi - Dead
Alex - Dead
John Locke - Dead

Penn

homerun_homer wrote: »

Smokie has manifested itself as;
Christian Sheppard (most likely) - Dead
Yemi - Dead
Alex - Dead
John Locke - Dead

And a bunch of Medusa spiders which paralysed Nikki

Dman001

Wow anyone see the the RTE2 ad for Lost. It gives us a peak into Thursdays Episode. Looks good.

AnonoBoy

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

And a bunch of Medusa spiders which paralysed Nikki

Oh Nikki.... will you prove to be the piece that makes the whole puzzle fall into place?





(or just a pointless filler character after all? )