[US/IRL] 6x04 - "The Substitute" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

Sad Professor

- WARNING: THIS THREAD WILL CONTAIN SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT YET SEEN "THE SUBSTITUTE" -

Episode Title: "The Substitute"
Airdate: February 16th 2010

Synopsis (from TV.Com):

Locke searches for help to further his cause.

Next New Episode: 6x05 - February 23rd 2010

---

SPOILER WARNING:

From now on, this thread shall reveal details of the episode mentioned above. If you have not yet seen this episode, please do not move any further down the thread.

A REMINDER ABOUT USE OF SPOILERS:

No discussion of future episode spoilers. That includes anything the writers may have revealed in interviews, podcasts, etc. Even behind spoiler tags they don't belong in this thread. Promos for next week shouldn't be posted in here either.

And out of respect for those following the show on RTE, this episode should NOT be discussed outside of this thread until it has aired on RTE.

speedboatchase

BIG improvement over last week and first episode I've really enjoyed so far this season.

I'm liking this new Locke, he actually gives us some answers! So THEY are the numbers eh, interesting stuff and much to ponder. Can never go wrong with a Locke episode. Also Jack looks pretty pumped up in next weeks preview so hopefully he's as fed up with those temple guys as I am

Helix

7

well that was more like it

Sad Professor

9

Hollys**t, did they just explain the numbers? I think they did - more or less.

What's up with UnLocke? He's clearly NOT Locke, but then he starts shouting Locke's old mantra: "Don't tell me what I can't do!" There's something weird going on. I'm guessing he took more than just the old Locke's appearance. Is the real Locke in there somewhere?

Who was the blonde kid? Jacob? Or is that too obvious? I think we can now rule out Smokey being all the apparitions on the island.

Great episode! This season has been brilliant so far imo.

speedboatchase

Sad Professor wrote: »

Hollys**t, did they just explain the numbers? I think they did - more or less.

Who was the blonde kid? Jacob? Or is that too obvious? I think we can now rule out Smokey being all the apparitions on the island.

Great episode! This season has been brilliant so far imo.

Few theories I'm after seeing, specifically about the numbers in the cave signifying the ppl on the island

Jin warped back in time with Jack etc but Sun didn't after they took that flight. So maybe that means she isn't part of the group of candidates

Also apparently jacks seat row is 23 and the number beside his name on the cave was also 23. maybe that's what they signify

And I definitely think the kid is Jacob, but then Sayid might be Jacob?

Also Starring LeVar Burton

9

Well that was the best damn episode since "Walkabout" (Season 1 - Episode 4: The original Locke Flashback)... It was absolutely awesome - especially compared to the first 3 episodes this season... O'Quinn, Holloway, Carbonnell, Emerson and Sagal all deserve several awards for that episodes - absolutely fantastic performances...
I really like how all the characters are connected in the flash sideways - wasn't expecting to see Hurley or Rose pop up in that episode... I had kinda guessed Ben would appear though...
And as for the writings on the wall, that's quite a huge reveal - so Locke, Sawyer, Jack, Sayid, Hurley and either Jin or Sun are really important as far as the island is concerned... but does that mean Kate, Claire, Rose, Bernard and either Jin or Sun (of the remaining original 815ers) are slightly unimportant in the grand scheme of things?

I reckon Jin is 42 rather than Sun, because if you look at the patern, the other guys (except for Bernard obviously) represent the numbers, but the women don't - could be just a coincidence, but interesting if theres something more to that...
So do you think which number people represent is important?
4 = Locke
8 = Hurley
15* = Sawyer
16* = Sayid
23 = Jack
42 = Jin or Sun

*I may have these two mixed up...

tok9

8

Great episode.. expected it really.

So how come Sawyer saw the kid? I'm assuming it's because hes a candidate.

The numbers are back and i'm not really sure what they mean to be honest. Pretty cool to see them again though.

Did anyone catch the other names on the list? Were there any women?

abelard

8

That started off a little slow but turned into a fantastic episode. Lost of talking points.

It seems some of Locke's personality managed to get transferred into the smoke monster when it took on his appearance. I wonder if we'll actually find out just how or when that happened?

Big talking point obviously the numbers in the cave. Jack, Hurley, Locke, Sawyer, Jin/Sun and Sayid. Interesting alright as was mentioned that they all seem to be men (apart from possibly Sun). I did see the name 'Littleton' though on the cave roof too but it was scrawled out, which must refer to Claire I guess, so it's hard to know if the 'candidates' can be male only.

I wonder then if there were loads more that were candidates and they have been narrowed down for various reasons, be they death or otherwise. Kate's absence from the list of candidates (or at least the remaining candidates) is also pretty conspicuous.

Does the list also somehow explain the smoke's decision to kill sometimes and not other times (ie that Jacob manifested as smoke at times too).

Favourite line of the episode;
Ben: "Ben Linus, European history."
Locke: "John Locke, substitute."

VolvicMinerial

6

Good episode, but I as expecting it when it was a Locke episode. I'm still not bought on the Flash Sideways part of the show. Before Locke went to Australia for his walkabout his relationship with Helen was on it's last legs and and she refused to go to Australia even though he had the tickets bought but then 1 week later their picking out chair covers for their wedding.

Then Rose appearing and saying Hurley was her boss, surely they would of copped on to this while their time on the island(Or maybe they never met).

My theory on the Flash Sideways is everything has it's destiny and even if they didn't crash on the Island their going to end up in similar situation in live.

Liked they way they answered the question why they were carrying around Locke's body, simple but accurate.

I wouldn't blame Sawyer not following Richard to the Temple, we saw what they were like and if I was him I would of followed Flocke as well.

Should be a good week of theories plenty to discuss in this episode.

homerun_homer

9

Excellent episode. I like the significance that the numbers play now and how it continues to show that the big picture is some sort of game.

The appearance of the boy was interesting, I thought it looked like it could be a young Jacob cause of the hair. It's funny that we are beginning to get insight into FLocke and here we have him getting stunned by the sight of this boy twice in quick succession, leading to more questions. I thought he knew everything and now I'm not sure.

Richard's performance was great, really showing his fear which hints that we could get to see the full wrath of MIB/FLocke down the line. Smokie may be nothing compared to what he is really capable of.

In the Flash sideways Locke and his Dad get on and Locke appears to not be getting conned like before. I still wonder if all these differences as a result of the island sinking will be explained in much detail.

Sad Professor

9

VolvicMinerial wrote: »

Good episode, but I as expecting it when it was a Locke episode. I'm still not bought on the Flash Sideways part of the show. Before Locke went to Australia for his walkabout his relationship with Helen was on it's last legs and and she refused to go to Australia even though he had the tickets bought but then 1 week later their picking out chair covers for their wedding.

Then Rose appearing and saying Hurley was her boss, surely they would of copped on to this while their time on the island(Or maybe they never met).

The "flash sideways" are a completely different timeline. The differences started (seemingly) in 1977, not 2004. So the plane not crashing is not the beginning of the changes. All of the characters seem to have subtle but significant differences in their backstory as a result. For example, I would speculate that Locke has a good relationship with his father in this timeline. It was his father that was the cause of the breakup of his relationship with Helen in the original. But this would also mean that Locke ended up in the wheelchair under different circumstances.

James Forde

9

excellent episode tugged on the old heart strings with the burial of original locke, but then lapidus reeled me out of it with:

"weirdest damn funeral i've ever been to"

gave it a 10

edit: I reckon "Kwon" refers to Jin as Jacob would have used Sun's maiden name if he wanted to differentiate just a thought

Agamemnon

7

Great stuff, finally we have an explanation for the numbers. Ben admitting at Locke's grave to having murdered him was a nice touch, as was Frank's remark that it was the weirdest funeral he'd ever been to.

It looks like the flash-sideways will now be more about seeing the characters in unexpected ways (like Ben being a history teacher) rather than having an overall story in their own right. I hope I'm wrong - it would be a pity if half the final season was devoted to "Where are they now"-style vignettes. Just as well the main story's so strong. It was nice to see things working out ok for Alt-Locke though.

homerun_homer

9

Agamemnon wrote: »

Ben admitting at Locke's grave to having murdered him was a nice touch, as was Frank's remark that it was the weirdest funeral he'd ever been to.

How did I neglect to mention this, it was great to see Ben get emotional at Locke's 'Funeral'.

I like the idea that the Flash Sideways will show us how the character would be without the islands interferance. If we see more Ben it'd be interesting to see a turn around, in that he could be a really nice guy with no manipulations going on.

Penn

I think Jin is the candidate rather then Sun. Out of all of them, Sun wasn't in Dharmaville. When Sayid, Jack, Hurley and Kate disappeared from the plane, perhaps it was because they were candidates. But since Sun wasn't, she stayed in the current 2007 timeline.

EDIT: Oh wait... Kate wasn't a candidate either.

Patricide

7

Really good episode. I like the way the flash sideways seem to be alternate timelines starting back in 1977. It could be that both timelines are playing out, but in parallel time streams (think parallel universes). Itd be interesting if this was the case, it could allow for two different endings two which would defiantly be an interesting way to end it.

MikeHoncho

That was great. Sawyer was great again. Is he the only person to be in every episode this season so far?

Off Island stuff was a bit slower but nice to see Hurley, Rose and Ben pop up. Its cool that Hurley is just a really good guy. It doesn't matter how rich or powerful he might be. I expect that we will find out that he financed Roses trip to Oz.

I suppose the 2 big talking points are the list and the kid in the jungle. My theory on this is that as part of the rules Smokey cant kill anyone on the list of candidates. He manipulated events so that Ben killed Locke and he has been crossed off. Now he plans to use Sawyer to kill the rest of the candidates leaving him as the only one left. He is then hoping that Sawyer will want to leave the Island thus setting Smokey free. The game will be over so to speak. But I dont think he has considered the fact that Sawyer is a con man. Sawyer is only going along with him to see what he can find out and will betray him in the end.

As for who the kid is I have no idea. Jacob is the obvious choice but I think it might be someone else entirely.

Also Starring LeVar Burton

9

Anyone else think the kid could be young Sawyer? Sawyer only got a glimpse of the kid for a second, so may not have recognised himself... Dunno why it would be him though...
Or perhaps it was an older Aaron?

homerun_homer

9

When the kid says "you can't kill him" you immediately suspect he refers to Sawyer. It angers FLocke, "Don't tell me what I can't do". But since Jacob can still appear to Hurley and give him directions it is possible the kid is referring to Jacob.
I'm looking forward to seeing if there are any screencaps of the lists of people to see if any recognisable names are there crossed off. I want to see if smokie killed any of them, or can he only manipulate them/others into arranging their deaths.

I mentioned before about the flash sideways and how it'd be interesting to see another side of Ben. However I forgot that he already had been healed in the temple - never to be the same again, so how he got off the island and got to where he is, and whether he has an off-island agenda is up to question.

opr

CaptainNegative wrote: »

Anyone else think the kid could be young Sawyer? Sawyer only got a glimpse of the kid for a second, so may not have recognised himself... Dunno why it would be him though...
Or perhaps it was an older Aaron?

A young Jacob ?

Is Kate the only one Jacob appears to in the flashbacks that doesn't seem to be a candidate ?

Kiith

8

That was brilliant. Love that the numbers are actually the losties. And i think the Kwon refers to both Jin and Sun, regardless of who went back to 1977.

Handsome Bob

9

Amazing, first 10 I have ever given.

Really happy about the numbers reveal, because Darlton kind of hinted in past interviews that the numbers may never be explained.

I wouldn't be surprised if the "dad" Helen referred to wasn't Cooper. Think about it, there's no way Locke (or Helen for that matter) would be so fond of Cooper if he pushed Locke out of a window causing his paralysis. I also noticed that, yes Locke still has his beefs about being in a wheel chair, but he doesn't have the daddy issues that destroyed so many things in his life (relationship with Helen for one). I can only assume that Locke got lucky when he was a child and was adopted by a good family (rather than going from foster home to foster home).

I reckon that FLocke has enlisted Sawyer because he can't kill the other candidates himself, so he needs Sawyer to do it. I doubt Sawyer would actually do it, but I'm guessing in FLocke's ideal world Sawyer would kill them all and then, once realising how he was duped by FLocke, would kill himself. Therefore all the candidates would be dead, and that somehow allows FLocke to leave the island.

Essien

8

Great episode. I'd love if the kid was Aaron, I always thought he was special so it would be a shame for that to go unresolved. I dont see any reason why it would be Jacob, why appear as a child?

Essien

8

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if the "dad" Helen referred to wasn't Cooper. Think about it, there's no way Locke (or Helen for that matter) would be so fond of Cooper if he pushed Locke out of a window causing his paralysis.

Do we know yet if that's even how he became paralysed in the alternate timeline?

Handsome Bob

9

Essien wrote: »

Do we know yet if that's even how he became paralysed in the alternate timeline?

Nope, that's what I'm saying, it was probably something different that caused it. He probably hasn't even met Cooper in the alternate universe.

EDIT Ah nuts, someone just told me that locke has a picture of Cooper on his desk in work or something. Maybe what I said is still all right though, just now instead of an adopted dad Cooper was just always in Locke's life and wasn't a con artist but a good person.

V9

8

That was fantastic.


That is all. Nothing more to add.

abelard

8

Maybe the flashes are (more specifically) the characters' lives had Jacob never interacted with them?

recylingbin

7

Much better than any of the crap they've given us so far this series.

I think 42:Kwon is Jin & Sun's kid.

If MIB is stuck in Locke's body, who were the rest of the apparitions?

the_monkey

4

im surprised ... i gave it a 5 ....

I liked the off island stuff but nothing much revealed on island,
you can see the writers thinking of more secluded places ....

"just stick a cave in the cliff...."


+ the numbers ,, don't think it really explains them ...

they were still the numbers on the hatch and the numbers that
needed to be entered ever 108 minutes....
don't see the connection ....


gave it a 5 ...

actually thought last weeks was a lot better...

James Forde

9

the_monkey wrote: »

im surprised ... i gave it a 5 ....

I liked the off island stuff but nothing much revealed on island,
you can see the writers thinking of more secluded places ....

"just stick a cave in the cliff...."


+ the numbers ,, don't think it really explains them ...

they were still the numbers on the hatch and the numbers that
needed to be entered ever 108 minutes....
don't see the connection ....


gave it a 5 ...

actually thought last weeks was a lot better...

seriously?

the_monkey

4

bryanjf wrote: »

seriously?

well i watched it earlier , i was sleepy..... ill watch it again later ...

I did like the off island stuff, but on island ... ???

maybe i missed it ... but i didn't feel any big reveals like i did last week...


I'll post back after watching again later with the girlfriend...

James Forde

9

the_monkey wrote: »

well i watched it earlier , i was sleepy..... ill watch it again later ...

I did like the off island stuff, but on island ... ???

maybe i missed it ... but i didn't feel any big reveals like i did last week...


I'll post back after watching again later with the girlfriend...

do i've watched it twice it's very good

big reveal, we found out why they were all "brought" to the island

Mr. Incognito

9

Holy cripes. THAT was the reason we watch lost and got hooked on it.

Amazing episode.

"why don't we get my parents and your dad and get married in Vegas"

So he has a good relationship with his father.

You know when Jack gave him the card I can't help but think he fixes Locke's spine and that's why he could walk after the crash, it has to be connected in some way.

darrenh

8

Excellent episode. The reason we watch lost. I cant believe someone prefered last weeks. Each to their own though.

randomchild

8

Excellent episode, smokey-cam being one of the highlights for me. I am going to guess is that flockes plan is to make sawyer the new jacob, the idea being that the only way for flocke to leave the island is if jacob leaves with him. Also I am going to go out on a limb and say the kid is Aaron. Now to see just how wrong I got it...

youngblood

Really good episode about the first 3 wet fish ones,
Delighted to find out about the numbers-even if thats only one reason for em which will no doubt be turned on its head
Child must be Aaron-why would they go to the trouble of casting another blonde boy...to confuse us....probably so

Interesting that Rose still has her terminal illness
Interesting that when Flocke and Richard were together only Flocke could see the child
But when Sawyer decides to go with Flocke, they both see the child.....

Richards backstory next please, plus Flocke is right when he told Richard what sorta fools would blindly follow someones orders if they didnt know what they were for
Nice touch throwing in the white rock to the sea-and the shot of Flocke in front of the white one, and Sawyer in front of the black rock

I think we are in for some entire off island episodes to speed up the alt-flash sideways arc

Psychedelic

7

Really cool episode. So much to think about, lots of stuff revealed about the smoke monster, the numbers, must watch it again. The acting and script was great throughout, really liked all the scenes with Locke in his alt reality and between Sawyer and fake Locke. Surprised that Sawyer was told the answer to why they came to the island in this episode, usually we would have to wait a few more episodes.

Fake Locke seemed scared when he saw that kid tell him he can't break the rules (how did he trip over by the way, seemed like a clumsy thing to do). It also appears he doesn't want to go home to the temple, but the real world, unless he is just tricking Sawyer. Illana's comment that he can no longer take on the appearance of anyone else too. Lots of little reveals of information like that.

Lapitus's "weirdest funeral" remark was hilarious.

Solid episode, hope they can keep to this standard up now for the rest of the season.

Saw this on another site:

The known survivors and corresponding numbers are:
4: Locke
8: Reyes
15: Ford
16: Jarrah
23: Shephard
42: Kwon

Also easily legible are the following (amongst many more names not yet deciphered).
10: Mattingley
222: O'Toole
233: Jones
291: Domingo

youngblood

This is the standard Im expecting for the rest of the season

Jazzy

me thinks the kid is some incarnation of aaron

Daith

Really good episode. FLocke not knowing everything is interesting. Aaaron was left in the states right?

Nice that Sun was the one who thought of giving John a proper burial.

mcgooch

8

Sad Professor wrote: »

Great episode! This season has been brilliant so far imo.

I'll second that. It's really gathering momentum towards what I expect will be an epic finale.

Creature

8

Good episode. It's strange seeing the new skittish Richard with his permanent look of pure terror. He must have some serious bad blood with fake Locke.

nirvana0506

7

the_monkey wrote: »

im surprised ... i gave it a 5 ....

I liked the off island stuff but nothing much revealed on island,
you can see the writers thinking of more secluded places ....

"just stick a cave in the cliff...."


+ the numbers ,, don't think it really explains them ...

they were still the numbers on the hatch and the numbers that
needed to be entered ever 108 minutes....
don't see the connection ....


gave it a 5 ...

actually thought last weeks was a lot better...

no ya have it the wrong way around. stuff happend on the island, notting much in the flash sideways. and if the flash sideways dont go anywhere we are gonna be left with 2 endings to the same show.

the numbers were on the hatch because the hatch brought flight 815 to the island and the people 4,8,15,16,23,42 were on flight 815.

so now do u see the connection??

and again wrong with sayin last week was better cos it wasnt. no way! notting major happened untill the last 10mins.

tok9

8

i kinda wish i gave it a 10 now... been thinking about it all day.. I'm seriously going to miss this show.

Something I'm really looking forward to now is if we'll see Christain anymore. A lot of people believed he was MIB tooo but since he can't change this will either confirm he is or isn't.

i've seen a lot of theorys that Aaron is the boy but at the moment i seriously can't see how thats the case. I'm just going to stick with a new character.

Draupnir

The two stones on the scales brought me right back to the first series, in fact I think it was the Pilot Part 2? Locke showing Walt the backgammon pieces and talking about how it was a game between light and dark.

Epic.

qz

8

Draupnir wrote: »

The two stones on the scales brought me right back to the first series, in fact I think it was the Pilot Part 2? Locke showing Walt the backgammon pieces and talking about how it was a game between light and dark.

Epic.

Two players, one is light, one is dark.





Superb stuff, this is why I watch this show. Fond memories of 2004-2010.

ixoy

Excellent episode and I like the fact we're getting some more concrete information (as much as you ever do in "Lost").

Regarding the numbers though - umm is it really as simple as seat numbers? Wasn't there a lot more to them and why they added up to 108?

Wondering now if !Locke (I hate the name Flocke) was telling us that this isn't about "good vs evil" when he threw the white rock away as an "inside joke". Maybe it's deeper, presumably to do with choices (hence "you cannot tell me what to do").

qz

8

ixoy wrote: »

Regarding the numbers though - umm is it really as simple as seat numbers? Wasn't there a lot more to them and why they added up to 108? .

Don't think it's as simple as purely seat numbers anyway, Jack sat in row 23 (corresponds with the number in the cave), but Locke sat in 24D (in the cave he was 4), while Reyes sat in 20G and 20H (in the cave he was 8). Source.

From Lostpedia

It has been revealed in The Lost Experience that these six numbers are the core values of the Valenzetti Equation, a mathematical formula designed to predict the end of humanity. The numbers in actuality are said to represent human and environmental factors in the equation (given numerical form), though their precise meaning is uncertain. One purpose of the DHARMA Initiative was to change the factors leading to humanity's demise, which will be indicated by an alteration in at least one of the human/environmental factors - i.e. the numbers. However, in all its years of research, the Initiative failed to reach its goal. Despite much research and manipulation of the equation's values, the end result was always the numbers.

In an interview with E! in 2009, Damon stated the following in regards to the Numbers: "Here's the story with numbers. The Hanso Foundation that started the Dharma Initiative hired this guy Valenzetti to basically work on this equation to determine what was the probability of the world ending in the wake of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Valenzetti basically deduced that it was 100 percent within the next 27 years, so the Hanso Foundation started the Dharma Initiative in an effort to try to change the variables in the equation so that mankind wouldn't wipe it itself out."

recylingbin

7

what was the reason Des was late in pushing the buttons? Was it the time he followed the other guy outside and killed him?

PetKing

7

recylingbin wrote: »

what was the reason Des was late in pushing the buttons? Was it the time he followed the other guy outside and killed him?

Yes.

qz

8

Just remembered there, the noise of AR Locke's alarm clock is the exact same as the noise of the hatch countdown alarm when the numbers weren't entered in time!