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Speedy Gonzales or Slowpoke Rodriguez?
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Some great posts here lads, I've nothing to add myself (unfortunately I just don't have the knowledge yet) but really enjoying these posts.0
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Last number of days:
Fri 8/11 60m HR152
Sat 9/11 95m HR148
Sun 10/11 80m HR151 approx ........Weekly total 88k approx
Mon 11/11 70m HR150
Tue 12/11 54m HR157
Wed 13/11 44m HR141
Weight 67.5 kg (10St 8 Lbs)
Plan was for the first HADD test this week but time was not on my side.
Perhaps Saturday. Feel the fitness rising probably due to having resumed the cycling/running 1 month ago and that return now kicking in.
Tuesdays run was an effort run at sub HR160. My HR ranged up to 178 for that so not too disciplined.
Easy runs should be now in the 140-5, and sub-tempo runs @ Initial LTHR (initial lactate threshold heart rate).....in the 155-60 range.
Hadds own pdf puts all users above 193 HR in the same ranges (last time i measured years ago i was close t 220, ill do a test again but im assuming 210 at least).Larry Brent wrote: »
The link Larry posted written by an athlete coached by Hadd puts
my easy @ 147-157
and Initial LTHR@ 168-174
E (easy) - 70-75 % HRmax (or less) (147-157 for me)
D - 80-83 % (168-174)
C - 82-85 %
B - 85-88 %
A - 87-90 %
Ill err on the lower side which is Hadd for now and try to get up to 110-5 k per week in singles at these paces. Ill add a second recovery run to some days then.
Plan is to be around 100k this week. I have to hold back, the slower the better with this program.
Weight 67.5 kg0 -
very interested in the HR side of training, I'll be following with interest, good luck with the 2.30 attempt.0
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Good start T - keep at it.0
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No harm to do a max HR test. 800m all out followed by 400m all out, or something like that. For the sake of 5mins in the middle of an easy run, it might give you a better idea of what HRs to be targeting.0
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These are the goal sessions for Phase II of HaddAfter having progressed through the Phase I training, a distance runner aiming to race well at a variety of distances will train to be able to complete the following sessions:
6 x 800m at 104% of 5k pace with everything from equal time recovery (down to) 1:15-1:30 recovery.
5-6 x 1k at 5k pace with 200m jog recovery in 90 secs
3 x 3k at 95-96% of 5k pace with 800m jog recovery
2 x 5k at 93-94% of 5k pace with 800m jog recovery
8k at 92% of 5k pace
16-20k at 88-90% of 5k pace"
Bottom session is particularly good for HM, next one for 10k, then 5k, 3k, 1500m.
For my buildup Ill try to get to the below initially then add extra easy runs. 1-2 doubles, initially, after two weeks, 2 more, then after 3 more weeks 3 more to make 6 double days as Kellogg advises..
Mon 60 min easy 140-145 HR (or lower)
Tue 90 min incl. 70 @ 160 HR
Wed 75 mins easy 140-150 HR (or lower)
Thu 75 mins easy 150-155 HR
Fri 90 min incl. 70 @ 160 HR
Sat 75 mins easy 140-150 HR (or lower)
Sun 2 hrs easy 145-155 HR (w/60 min @ 160)
Ill try and push the medium long runs out to 25k at the highest mileage.
May do some of these Phase II sessions, a few PB attempt races from 5-21k, and start with Phase I again in Early May with the Autumn marathon as a sole target
5 - 93-94% of 5k pace:
5k continuous
3 x 3k w/400j
10-12 x 1000 w/400j
5 x 2k w/400j
5k + 3k + 2k w/400j
6 x 2k w/400j
2 x 5k w/800j
8 x 2k W 400j (this is a very good HM test session)0 -
Larry Brent wrote: »No harm to do a max HR test. 800m all out followed by 400m all out, or something like that. For the sake of 5mins in the middle of an easy run, it might give you a better idea of what HRs to be targeting.
Will do, but Hadd reckons 140-45, and 155-160 starting HRs for ALL MAXHRs above 193 (which mine surely is) so it shouldnt change my HR targets unless i take the %HR aproach that Hadd's athlete suggests.
Did you base yours on Hadds PDF suggestions or on % Max HR?0 -
Some great posts here lads, I've nothing to add myself (unfortunately I just don't have the knowledge yet) but really enjoying these posts.
Ask away, pipe up, or chip in anytime you like P.Krusty_Clown wrote: »Just reading through the section called: Mastering Running after 40. Fascinating stuff! I seem to have been following many of the principles anyway, e.g. running very easy on easy days, lots of sub-threshold running, running on soft surfaces, 12 week training cycles, 2-3 days per week hard training, with lots of easy running. Perhaps there's just a lot of common sense in his responses. He just provides reasons why we do this stuff.
Also took a look at the Frankfurt course video. That is one extremely twisty course. You'd definitely want to be good at running the racing line, and ensure you're ahead of the crowds.
It is twisty. Actually I might try and slow the video down to see how much space are in those city junctions. I think starting steady and talking a few k to find the pace are out. Will need to be in my group and near the front of it for those early corners.
Read through that masters running properly. A good reason to keep the speed maintenenace sessions (or commence them in my case) going all year. The bit of speed seems to offset a lot of it. The bit about refined sugar was revealing, saying it weakened muscle tissue etc. making tears far more likely.
I suppose we get more sensible and work on all aspects of running, diet, , flexibility, lifestyle etc as we get older, and it seems we need to.0 -
Will do, but Hadd reckons 140-45, and 155-160 starting HRs for ALL MAXHRs above 193 (which mine surely is) so it shouldnt change my HR targets unless i take the %HR aproach that Hadd's athlete suggests.
Did you base yours on Hadds PDF suggestions or on % Max HR?
Probably the former as my max was 193 and 189 when tested formally on 2 occasions. Although I suspect it might have lowered a bit since.
If you use the PDF guidelines, that will give you a good starting point, but if your max hr is 220 or so, you might take a while to get to your marathon hr if bumping up by 5bpm each step! It was seeing the 220 and the ilthr for that 168-174 that rang alarm bells, both seem very high, but perhaps you are simply an outlier, so I suggested the hr max test just to clarify for yourself.
I found though, once you do a few ilthr runs, I got a real feel for it. It was a very nice breathing effort level, working a bit, but well controlled, a very invigorating, satisfying feeling. And that stays much the same as you bump up by 5bpm each step. So you'll probably get a feel for the right zone anyway. I found it took a relatively long time, maybe 6 weeks to 'master' ilthr (155) but flew through 160 and 165 in about 4 sessions or 2 weeks each. Finally, while 155, 160, 165 all felt much the same to me (invigorating), 170 felt like a bit more effort, or straining a bit. I think that might be a sign that my marathon hr would lie between 165 and 170, or maybe I just needed to spend time at 170 (only did 2 sessions, ran out of time).
When you say you'll do e.g 60 mins at 160, you'll have a choice to make - allow pace to drop to complete the hour at 160, or ease back to 140-145 at the time point that pace drops significantly and build up to the full hour...not sure if it makes a difference.
The alternating 200s sessions done in phase 1 (25 x 200 @ 5k pace, 200 @ 15s slower) are great, and important if you want to be some bit race ready during or just after this phase.
Good luck with it!0 -
Larry Brent wrote: »Probably the former as my max was 193 and 189 when tested formally on 2 occasions. Although I suspect it might have lowered a bit since.
If you use the PDF guidelines, that will give you a good starting point, but if your max hr is 220 or so, you might take a while to get to your marathon hr if bumping up by 5bpm each step! It was seeing the 220 and the ilthr for that 168-174 that rang alarm bells, both seem very high, but perhaps you are simply an outlier, so I suggested the hr max test just to clarify for yourself.
I found though, once you do a few ilthr runs, I got a real feel for it. It was a very nice breathing effort level, working a bit, but well controlled, a very invigorating, satisfying feeling. And that stays much the same as you bump up by 5bpm each step. So you'll probably get a feel for the right zone anyway. I found it took a relatively long time, maybe 6 weeks to 'master' ilthr (155) but flew through 160 and 165 in about 4 sessions or 2 weeks each. Finally, while 155, 160, 165 all felt much the same to me (invigorating), 170 felt like a bit more effort, or straining a bit. I think that might be a sign that my marathon hr would lie between 165 and 170, or maybe I just needed to spend time at 170 (only did 2 sessions, ran out of time).
When you say you'll do e.g 60 mins at 160, you'll have a choice to make - allow pace to drop to complete the hour at 160, or ease back to 140-145 at the time point that pace drops significantly and build up to the full hour...not sure if it makes a difference.
The alternating 200s sessions done in phase 1 (25 x 200 @ 5k pace, 200 @ 15s slower) are great, and important if you want to be some bit race ready during or just after this phase.
Good luck with it!
Thanks that's a great response Larry. I've recorded the max HR about 5-7 years ago at the final stages of mountain running climbs. It was odd as so high but I remember PosNeg commenting that I might have a small but efficient heart.
Anyway, 160 ish felt like I was breathing a wee bit so it will be OK till I get the maxHR sorted. Ill try and find some old log books for HR records in mean time.
Ill keep the runs at the 160 regardless of pace drop for starters. I might change though, will probably have to at the harder HRs.
Ill try and get up to high mileage on the the first ilthr. Getting the mileage high will be key. Once ive that template in place as long as im careful I should get the aerobic boost I need. Those 10k/200s should dovetail nicely into my spring racing season allright.
TBH aerobic boosts were responsible for my best 2 marathon times and I believe I can reproduce and progress more in the same vein albeit with a little more smarts this time in the form of speed development, longer singles, relaxed running at all times, and a more progressive aerobic buildup (Hadd), leading to fast sessions/races before building up for the big one.
Oddly, the last time I was doing 120k a week of as fast as possible aerobic running. I got very efficient at fast speeds as a result. However, when I upped it to 160k I had to slow it down and I think I may have got a "Hadd Phase I in reverse, kick (fast aerobic first, adding slow aerobic after)" out of eventually utilising those slowest twitch fibres, when the pace had to come down. Incidently, I regret not heeding fully your advice about 10-12 weeks before Rotterdam to not change a good thing and evolve my training gradually. I think risking the few big sessions backfired for me a little..
Efficiency is key and I may do some drills. Not full middle distance type drills but just a few drills concentrating on key areas in a marathoners gait: eg foot contact time, relaxation.
Any plans afoot yourself?0 -
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Any plans afoot yourself?
I’m training with a girl at the moment who’ll hopefully be in the vicinity of a Rio marathon qualifier so I’ll try to take in as much of that journey as I can. So far it’s been fascinating. She bumped into Jerome Drayton at an expo about a year ago. She told him she was thinking of moving up to the marathon and asked if he’d any tips. She was expecting him to give her some Canova type sessions to work on but he simply said to run 5000 miles in a year and only then ask herself if she’d like to train for the marathon. Well, she’ll hit 5000 for 2013 in the next few weeks and she’s taken her 10k from 35 to 33, her HM from 78 to 73. The downside is her 1500m has gone from 4:25 to 4:35, but then she doesn’t want to be a 1500m runner... We were starting out on a 38k training run (yes, she goes that long when HM training) and I mused that I wish I’d only done 60mins rather than 75 the day before as I was feeling tired and she mentioned that she wished she’d only done 16k instead of 21 the night before as she’d already done 16k that morning. The mileage, dedication and commitment is great to witness. With child 3 on the way for me, I can’t get the mileage or recovery that I’d like at the moment, so just eeking what I can out of it for now, my time will come:). But it’s been a good example of how her doing double my mileage (and probably getting double the sleep I do!) translates to her being 40s faster over 5k, 2:30 over 10k, and probably about 5mins over HM, despite us being well matched in sessions and long runs. She’s making her marathon debut in March, so I’ll probably do a HM around the same time, as her M pace and my HM pace will probably match up so it will work out well for training.0 -
Larry Brent wrote: ».......... She was expecting him to give her some Canova type sessions to work on but he simply said to run 5000 miles in a year and only then ask herself if she’d like to train for the marathon. Well, she’ll hit 5000 for 2013 in the next few weeks and she’s taken her 10k from 35 to 33, her HM from 78 to 73. ........
The high mileage or highest sustaineable mileage, does seem to be a huge factor in marathon success.
5000 miles in a year? One would be a different animal after that all right.
What does she need to run for Rio? and what is she hoping for in March?0 -
Thurs 14/11 63mins HR139 inc 2 x 5-6 x 100m buildups
Did first set at Sanymount beach walk and second on Luas line west of point depot. Worked out well although they should be done before or after an effort session, before in teh early stages of the program i guess.
Fri 15/11 63mins HR159 effort session inc Killiney Hill.
A little tired from strides yesterday. Found it hard to keep in the 155-60 range. Hill from Cromlech roundabout to Obelisk was dont in higer ranges nearly touching HR180 at one stage. Important to keep in the right range but most of my runs will be on the flat so i wont beat myself up over it yet.
Should get up to 100k this week, so half way to maximum mileage. May take a step back next week and do the HR max test and the 2400m test.
The 2400 metre test is important, mostly as a powerful stimulus to keep improving. Runners love seeing progress.0 -
Format: HR Pace KM (Pace Miles)
HR 140 5:31 (8:53) 152.5 5:06 (8:13) 165 4:43 (7:37) 177.5 4:25 (7:06) 190 4:06 (6:36)
Dont know what to make of these!
Well firstly, Hadds zones re 193 or HIGHER are not accurate for runners with HR well above 200s.
Ill use this from now on: E (easy) - 70-75 % HRmax (or less)
D - 80-83 %
C - 82-85 %
B - 85-88 %
A - 87-90 %
Next task is to find my HR Max. Wednesday or thursday most likley.
As Rgds The test, I did it on the track in the park near Ballybrack. Cold and windy.
Completely wrong heart ranges used, ill use 150-200 next time.
Its weird because the intensity @ 145 during my training runs feels right for how easy is described in this training method, but 160 feels too easy to be a steady run.
I found that breathing became faster at about 181-2 HR and that at 190-1 felt like I was at my LT. So AT is around 180-2 (guess) and LT is 190-2
Thats a big wake up call. Thats a huge drop in speeds compared to 10 weeks ago. Clearly as well as a loss in fitness ive lost a lot of speed which needs to be adressed immediately. The speed is not going to come skipping easily back after some decent mileage---im going to have to work on it this time. That means 2 decent sets of strides emphasised every week without fail from now on.
Saturday 16/11: 55m very easy (recovery)
Sunday Rest (visitors so rest day before test).
Monday 18/11: 16k inc Progression run HR140-190 12k
Edit: Just re-reading the section on Hadd;'s test in his PDF. A 90s break should be recorded between reps, which i didnt do, i ran it continuous. With the too low intensity yesterday and the cold a 90s break wasnt really on anyway. Will make times next time a little faster just for that, no doubt.0 -
Great to see you back T. Log is always a very interesting read.
Best of luck, keen to know what you max HR is0 -
Monday 18/11: 16k inc Progression run HR140-190 12k
Tuesday 19/11: 70m @ 160 pm 12.5k easy
Wednesday: easy 10k lunch, (no HR data)
Thursday: 10k easy
Friday: 15k inc 3 x (5 x 80-100m buildups).
Saturday: 18k (9 steady)
Sunday rest. Total 94k
Monday 25/11: easy 12.5k
Tuesday 26/11: 2 x 12.5k commute........13-15 x 80m buildups on PM 12.5k
Misplaced HRM on Tuesday so ad-libbing the runs, but no effort was uncomfortable.
I found the double day on tuesday suprisingly easy. This tells me that the policy of having standard runs of atleast 60-5 mins is paying off. Or maybe its that running each run at the correct consistant speed makes the legs stronger.
What i didnt find so easy was the buildups on friday. I fell asleep not long after the kids and felt/slept like i was after doing a race. Obviously muscle fibers that hadnt being used for a long time getting very tired there.
No hard rate test yet, but plan next week is to get back strictly following Hadd's (or his students) HRM %-ages of 210 MAX.
<70% = Recovery = HR 135-147
70-75% = easy = HR 147-157 HR
80-83 = First steady zone = HR 168-1750 -
Do you always run by the HR?0
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Do you always run by the HR?
Not usually at all.
It just suits the purposes this time. I need to keepnthings simple as i have a young family inc a 3 month old at home. I just follow either the slower hr or the faster one. Once i get the weekly template right it will look like this:
Twice weekly 95 min runs with 70 of each at tje higher heart rate. 1 125 min run, and a few 65 min runs all at the lower heart rate. Whatever i can squeeze in after to maximise mileage again all at the lower rate.
When mileage is high ill do some of the other runs at in between HRs, and when im satisfied that my pace and endurance has plateaud for the 70 minute efforts, then that HR is increased by 5 bpm.
The advantage is you never run too fast and so can methodically squeeze the potential fitness tjrough all the aerobic HRs, and as the effort is controlled you can do high mileage.
Strides twice a week for leg speed.
Oh, and you only have to charge the garmin once a week when using only HR which is great. I can work out dists and speeds later if i need to.
Sorry for long winded reply. Im trying to get it clear in my own head, but im a novive at the oul HR stuff.
Edit: i had 3 heart rates in my previous post. All of my runs now are either st he easy rate, or first steady rate. When i need to i run the odd recovery jog. Ill be throwing in plenty more jogs when time allows for recovery and body composition purposes.0 -
wed 27/11 AM 12.5k easy
PM 12.5k @ HR172 effort run, went a little too hard, will modify and lengthen next time.
Thursday AM 12.5k @ HR 150
Loving these morning runs. Its over an hour easy to work and its glorious weather to appreciate the sunrise from Sandymount strand. I used not like morning runs, but i'm used to them now and its definately the most enjoyable time of day to run. Ill try and get an effort session in a morning run next week.
Im at 75k for the week, and feeling fresh enough. Heading west tomorrow but if I can sneak 10k in tonight I might be on for 120k + this week which is going in the right direction. 5-6 weeks back running im ready for a step up. About 3 more step ups till I reach maximum mileage but I don't mind, its all enjoyable aerobic running. (I'm starting to think my aversion to sessions is evidence that Im very much on the slow twitch side of things.) Might do an ultra at some stage to test that.
Its definitely easier to get the mileage in through even doubles (as I did for last marathon) which is great news because it means its harder with better results to do the majority of running in singles, so that will be something gained.
Ill hopefully get warriors run course in as a training run this weekend. I realized ive hardly done any runs on that course bar races in recent years. I want to get right cosy with it this year in order to have a right crack at a decent time, should the training go well.0 -
I see where your coming from, no fear of burning yourself out either. I bought a HR monitor recently but haven't really used it yet.. still have to work out all my zones and stuff. Its good for working out paces for tempos and steady runs too.0
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I see where your coming from, no fear of burning yourself out either. I bought a HR monitor recently but haven't really used it yet.. still have to work out all my zones and stuff. Its good for working out paces for tempos and steady runs too.
Google hadd and pdf and theres a pdf there that im using to base my hr training on. Youll need your maxhr. I also attached a pdf a few pages back with good info by john kellogg.0 -
Monday 25/11: easy 12.5k
Tuesday 26/11: 2 x 12.5k AM and PM commute........13-15 x 80m buildups on PM 12.5k
Wed 27/11: AM 12.5k easy PM 12.5k @ HR172 effort run, went a little too hard, will modify and lengthen next time.
Thursday 28/11: AM 12.5k easy @ HR 150
Friday 29/11: AM 4k jog PM 101mins inc 4 *16 approx @165-172 HR
Saturday 30/11: Rest day
Sunday 1/12: 10k easy
Total 110k
Best run:
Happiest with Fridays run. I found it hard to get the HR up and I was surprised to see I was moving fast-ish when I did. To date small fluctuations in effort has meantb big fluctuations in HR, but Wednesdays effort run may have "bedded the target HR" for Fridays similar HR run. I certainly felt the legs turning over faster and running more powerfully on Friday for that HR than on Wednesday. Thursday was an easy day so I may have been rested but a run indicating not insignificant improvement. Had to break the effort with 4 min breaks. It was possible to do it in one go but it would have been too hard and defeating the purpose.
Late night killer: Second weekend in a row I did a late night run and its a mistake because it kills me for the weekend,a s for the second weekend in a row it was my only significant weekend run. I'm on max of 7 hours sleep and sometimes as low as 3-4 regularly so a hardish run late, affects my sleep and im literally too shattered to run again.
Best at this time, to target Saturday, sometime in morning or afternoon for a long run, I can use Friday as an easy day and get an a 60-90 min run in sometime Sunday.
Singles better aerobic gains than doubles: Not bad mileage but only one run over 12.5 k and loads of doubles. That made the mileage easy. The trick for me is doing weeks with increasing mileage in singles, and jogging any (relatively short) recovery run.
I have done 8 or more 160k weeks on the trot with loads of moderate length doubles before. IMO 160k weeks done with many moderate lenght doubles is equivalent only to a 130k week of singles.
I should gain significantly aerobically attaining the mileage in singles as that's something new for me.
Max HR test bubu: Tried to do a MAX HR test and made a balls of it. Threadmill was only option as track is too far from work. So got down to gym and opted for an 800m all out, rest then 400m all out type session. On threadmill I translated that to 2m 15s @ 17kph @ 6% rest 90 s then 70s @ 20kph 6%.
Just as I was starting my 70s all out the treadmill hits 20 mins and is programmed to stop ansd top it does.. By the time I got it back my HR was well down...and 20kph was a little fast.
I got up to 206 HR on the 2:15 effort but as my HR had fallen too low, I could only get to 203 on the second effort before the legs started tiring dangerously and jumped off the belt dodgily before I was spat into the middle of the gym.
Ill do it again but happy to go with 210 HR MAX ballpark for now. I think there was a few more beats in it, if I got the session right.
This weeks plan is below. Plan to start core work this week. Just getting technique right to start with. Effort will come in good time.
Day mins(effort), 2ndRunMins(effort) E = HR 145-157 S = HR (165-173)
Mon 35 HR Test, 65E
Tue 95 (60-70S), 35-65 E
Wed 70 E
Thur 95 (60-70S)
Fri 60 E
Sat 125 E-S
Sun 65-95 E
That should be:
1 long, 2 medium long with Steady, 4 general aerobic (<65 mins)
Easy or recovery effort for all other secondary runs.0 -
Mon 2/12 Lunch 5k (inc MAX HR Test) PM 20k easy
Tue Lunch 5k inc core + drills + strides PM 12.5k easy
Wed Lunch Lunch 4k inc core PM 15k easy-steady
Thurs 21k inc 70 mins @ HR 160
Fri Rest
Sat 2hrs 15 E
Sun Rest
Mon Rest
Total 108k
83k ish of that was done by thursday so the weekend went a little pear shape. Not to worry, visitors and a head cold. It happens and plenty of time. Increased to 4 longer single runs though: 2:15, 1:50, 1:35, 65
Thats an improvement.
Decided to reduce the effort to 155-160. It felt an effort although its not even 7 min miling for me. Will do one effort at 160 and one at 165 this week. I had to slow to keep the 70 min run under HR 160 last week. So will push the toothpaste out with one more 160 HR run.
Ill take this week as it goes, and aim for a big week teh following circa 160k and ill probably have to drop back over the xmas. Id like to get a decent mileage week in though.0 -
Mon REST
Tue 12.5k E inc 15+ times 80-100 m strides.
Wed 12.5k E
Thur 16k Steady
Fri 12.5k E
Sat 20k inc 70m @165-170 HR with 6 X 100m strides at the end
Sun Long: 2hr 10 mins E
About bang on the 100k. Happy with that. Saturdays pace was about 6:55 in windy conditions......Lost pace towards the end. Once i have that endurance sorted..things should progress..0 -
Monday 1 6/12/2013 am 8k easy pm 16k easy
Tuesday 20k inc 70 mins @ 165-170 HR
Wednes 12.5 k
Thursday 12.5 x 2 commute 25k
Friday 12.5k E
Saturday 22k inc 75 @60-70 HR
Sunday 27k @ most at 160-5 HR
143k and almost the 90 miles. Didnt feel too hard either. The control of the HR monitor means these big weeks are becoming should be getting sustaineable. And finally getting consistancy with my 3 key runs: 2 effort runs @ 170 HR and one long Run @ 160-5 HR. 2 Strides sessions also again but no corework.
Long run has improved from 5:20 ks 2 weeks ago to 4:40 now albeit at a few heart beats higher this week. The long runs seem to have impacted on my effort runs as tuesdays run was down to 4:10 pace in wind (6:44 miling) so progressing. Still fading in the last 1/4 so improvement to gain in speed and endurcance there.
Saturdays effort was on the Royal canal which eas a building site for a few K in both directions, so pace was out although i added 5 mins to the effort to cover the fact that pace was a little uneven.
Effort run: @ 170 HR is right. Its neither hard nor easy to keep it going. Im running it out and back, often windy and find myself looking forward to change of wind at half way which means its a little tough. Speed fades to maintain HR in last 1/4 so endurcance and speed need to improve. I guess thats why mastering the first effort range takes longest in Hadds approac: you have to smooth out the resistance in the second half of the effort. Once that is achieved the time spent after moving up 5 beats to the next and subsequent zones should be less. This is because the specific endurance gained from teh lower zone should translate up in most part to specific endurance at the next zone.
Tracking
Going to start gauging paces now. I wont be monitoring pace live and garmin watching (well only for HR) but i want to start seeing weekly average pace etc stats which may be useful now and in future.
HRs getting harder rather than easier
Suprised by this but stands to reason. 150 HR felt ridiculously slow and easy when i started, i couldnt keep HR below it. Now im running at that HR, and it doesnt feel as easy. My legs are taking longer strides faster, feet are hitting the ground harder...and it feels considerabky...harder. The progression means you are running harder at the same HR and therefore faster.
There is a difference between the cardiac system and the musculature system.
I should have known this from something similar in downhill running:
You run downhill at a low HR....its a piece of piss for the heart...the legs...the legs dont forget that its hard down for them rather than easy flat for the given HR.
Progression
2 weeks off for xmas but will be busy. Aim is to get over 120k ave for teh 2 getting all key runs in and 5 runs over the hour per week.
After that its a progression in mileage towards my max (im thinking 200k).If my Marathon HR is 88% HR max, then that gives me a potential marathon ave of 185 HR. That means i have at least 2 effort zones to go.: 170-75, and 175-180. Ill probaly go 180-85 also. Added to that the high volume and the potential to improve also by upping zones for all weekly runs bar 1-2. Im starting to like the potential here and realise the aerobic buildup for the last marathon could be grealy surpassed here.
Ill aim for pure 5k training then bar aerobic maintenace runs, and some marathon pace half sessions (purely for race pace efficiency).
I want to get faster. My 5k pb is 15:54 which i think i can take big chunks out of. If i go from there into marathon training the Aerobic build up will be sorter and hopefully ill have the speed, the aerobic conditioning and the smarter training to really have a cut come october.
Weight
Bad news is diet is bad and i havent lost anything in a month. Good news is when i do get it together it should add greatly to my improvement.0 -
Monday 23/12: rest
Tuesday: 65 minutes @ HR 157
Wednesday: 70m @ 177 (4 min pace, 6.26 mile pace)
Thursday : 97m 13.5k on road, grass, beach and mountain.
Friday rest:
Saturday: 100ms including 70m @ HR 170 inc 8 strides
Sunday: 2hrs 8 min HR 144 ave (135 first half, 154 second)
Total: just under 100k probably equivalent to 115 k in time running due to difficult terrain.
Xmas week in Sligo. Was never going to get high mileage in so concentrated on getting decent and enjoyable runs in when the opportunities came.
Tuesdays run was on beach and sand-dunes some steep due to being forced off the beach by a sizeable tide. Tougher than planned.
Wednesdays plan was the session run @ HR 170 from Strandhill to Rosses Point in Sligo (17-18k) for a xmas day swim. Time was tighter than expected so had to push it HR177ave with most of the 2nd half of the run in the mid eighties. Tough enough and about current marathon effort give or take. Form was sluggish and i felt tight and infelxible at the faster pace. Just missed the main group for the swim anyway.
Thursday. Pure enjoyment. Had 90 mins for this one so thought id take in most of the beaches on Strandhill peninsula, and acircuit of the airport. Had to vault a huge industrial gate erected by a landowner which cuts a section of a peninsula off and is wrong in so many ways including legally ill bet, but there wont be any action or betting on that front for the next 1000 years by Sligo Coco after losing Lissadell.
Anyoway, on and up Knocknarea, cant really go easy here as its up the steep front of the mountain and great to see that the old path from the village to the cairn through a forest (thought i was the only one left using it) has been well marked for walkers now.
Saturday. Back in Dublin, I would pay for these enjoyable albeit strenght sapping runs. Very stiff, with DOMs, couldnt get the legs moving and a very disconcerting result of the HR170 70 min effort being 15s a k slower than the last.
Noticing my ave HRs were high for the week i decided to keep sundays run relaxed and try and run with decent form. Just looked to pick my heels up at the back rather than pushing each stride, stand tallish and to not force any acceleration. Those two checks are enough to ensure the third one, hips forward, happens......and not forcing it means that the technique is relaxed which is crucial. Changed direction and headed for the park for variety as i wasnt looking forward to this run and my usual long run involving a return into a headwind from Howth direction back to town would have been a killer.
The first half of this run was the most efficient of the week @ 693 heart beats per kilometer.
Just eased into it and the slight checks on form made sure that cadence. I tried to up it for the second half and for less than a 10 s per k increase my HR had to increase 20 beats! All the coaches refer to the absolute necessity of relaxed, efficient running when doing aerobic conditioning. Time to start concentarting on this. Only managed one (poor) stride session all week and thses have to eb emphasised again also for this reason.
Monday 30/12: 73 mins @ HR 146 15.5 k 4:48 pace.
Tuesday: 31/12: @31k inc Hadd test 2. 9.5 k jog warmup. 12.7k on track 8.5 k warm down.
Monday i continued with my form watching with more good success and another efficient run. Im happy with this as easy run effort. If i have to force up the pace its not easy. Hopefully with improved fitness this pace will come down towards 4:20.
Tuesdays Hadd test involved a jog out to ALSAA track and back. Very easy pace, but im heading north for a wedding for a few days which will involve only short easy runs if any, and i needed to get a decent run in so this was the way.
Results below.
Test is 2.4 k @ 150-160-170-180-190 wi 90 second break between each.
Format: HR Pace KM (Pace Miles)
Conditions windy:
Note potential HR marathon calculated to be HR 188
150 4:38 (7:27) 160 4:23 (7:03) 170 4:11 (6:43) 180 3:57 (6:21) 190 3:42 (5:58)
Results from 18/11
HR 140 5:31 (8:53) 152.5 5:06 (8:13) 165 4:43 (7:37) 177.5 4:25 (7:06) 190 4:06 (6:36)
The initial test was conducted on a cinder track on a cold windy day with no break between HR decades. Even so, there is significant improvement. Most of this has come in the last few weeks iguess when i have been getting the 2 effort sessons and long run in consistantly each week.
Hadd used the HR 170 result to calculate MP for his runner "Joe" in his Training document. This was 5 beats below his extimated marathon HR average but the lower figure is used due to cardiac drift during the marathon race.
Thus the pace @ HR 183 would give me an estimation for current marathon potential based on a potential marathon HR 188.
I tried to push the 180 result out to 183 ave but managed 181 ave. That gives me 3:57 pace and around 2:45 marathon potential which although an improvement on the last test is a very very long way from the 3:30-33 id need to see on that test for HR 183 to be in 2:30 marathon shape. Ill keep plugging away.0 -
Monday 30/12: 73 mins @ HR 146 15.5 k 4:48 pace.
Tuesday: @31k inc Hadd test no. 2.
9.5 k jog warmup. 12.7k on track 8.5 k warm down.
Wednesday: Rest
Thursday: 5k easy
Friday: Rest
Saturday: AM (2 x 3k) PM 20k inc 70m @ HR 170
Sunday: 2 Hrs @ HR165 (26k) (4:36 pace)
103k total
Wedding away on Wednesday/Thursday and babysitting 2 extra kids on Friday (4 total) meant I was delighted to get over the 100k again and average 100km for the 2 xmas weeks. Ill have my 2 commute slots as well as my lunch time slot back now so mileage should be easier. I hope. Only one virus so far this winter but diet starting to improve so fingers crossed for the rest of the winter.
Had to slog out late night long runs to get the runs in but I might try and move the weekend long run to Saturday. No fun doing two hour runs late on Sunday nights!
Efficient pressure:
A Lydiard type buildup (and Hadd's is a HR version albeit with a slower buildup) always stipulates that the running should maintain efficient pressure. Kellogg also maintains this. My Saturday effort for HR 170 sliding out to a 4:28 min/km is 17 secs slower than 2 weeks previously. I haven't been doing my strides and im now just teaching myself to run slow and inefficiently. My legs feel tight. My range of motion is limited so I cant run fast. Interestingly, I perform better into the wind where I tend to use shorter strides, which supports this conclusion.
The effort at HR 170 now feels easy but I need the pace to reflect the fitness. Ill do a session or two of drills and strides before next effort run probably on Wednesday. May even do flat out uphill sprints of 6-8 s to really get a good range of movement and the legs turning over. Ill start dynamic stretching on session days and static stretching on easy days to support.
I intend to do light pickups or some form of stride/speed maintenance work 4-5 times per week henceforth, probably at lunch.
Ill stay at HR 170 for effort days until the speed issue is sorted.
Mileage pick up.
Happy with how the training has gone till the end of the year. Im still worryingly slow, but good basework is banked and from a position of not having run a step in 2 months, 2 months later im safely running at good mileage again.
Time to up it a little. I might opt for 2 big weeks followed by a recovery week, and thereafter go for a 3/1 structure. Next two weeks will feel tough, but what else would you be doing in January?0 -
Monday 6/1: Lunch 6k inc 12 x buildups and core
PM 15k easy HR 145
Tuesday: AM 12.5k easy HR 148
The buildups yesterday at lunch seemed to have done the trick. The easy run last night was a lot freer and less stiff/bockety. Started some core work at lunch also. Ticked all the boxes for the day.
My morning run into work was quite stiff and slow..a much slower pace than yesterday evenings run with a higher HR. Im not a morning runner, but stiffness, lack of flexibility does seem to have an affect at HR/Pace. I suppose it affects stride lenght and stride rate. I wont speculate on the whys anymore. A bit of dynamic stretching before easy runs is another box that needs ticking.
Tonight will be 12.5 or 15k home with 10-15 buildups again.
Hopefully pace for tomorrow evenings effort run will be back to where it should be.0 -
i have 6 x 10 second uphill sprints in my plan for tomorrow. Any tips? How steep should the hill be? Anything I should be focussing on during the sprint? Walk back recovery?May even do flat out uphill sprints of 6-8 s to really get a good range of movement and the legs turning over. Ill start dynamic stretching on session days and static stretching on easy days to support.0 -
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Krusty_Clown wrote: »i have 6 x 10 second uphill sprints in my plan for tomorrow. Any tips? How steep should the hill be? Anything I should be focussing on during the sprint? Walk back recovery?
From the Kellogg doc:Most people find it difficult to jump right into fast hill work without having some weakness in the qualities needed for effective hill sprinting. Usually, this shows up as either too great a forward lean (into the hill) or as a tendency to remain in the "plant" phase too long on each step (kind of "sinking" into the hill with a plodding feeling). It is desirable to reduce the time spent in the plant phase, since the faster your eccentric pre-stretch is, the more explosive your toe-off will be. You want to "pop" off the ground when doing hill sprints.
So I reckon stay as relaxed as possible, stay comfortably upright, slightly faster leg turnover than normal (pull the legs through faster) but still with powerful strides. Although your running powerfully be aware that you want to minimize foot plant time. Also Make sure your getting plenty of power from the ankle/calf area too, drive right onto the toes.
Pulling the legs through fast with a short but powerful foot plant should give you that "popping" off the ground described by Kellogg.
Take full recovery (2 mins) as you need to perform them as well as you can.
The last few might jellify the legs. Just keep relaxed and oblivious.
That Magness 5k plan looks great. Cant wait to start doing faster stuff!0
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