Speedy Gonzales or Slowpoke Rodriguez?

Stazza

T, I’ve given Jake the link to your log and told him that you don’t mind if he jumps in. He’s pretty busy at the moment but I’m sure he’ll dive in soon enough. I’ve sent him your questions, so he’ll probably jump in and answer them. He’s cool with me sharing what we talk about and with that in mind, here’s a good bit of the email he sent me yesterday (he’s responding to some suggestions and concerns)…

When I say 20-30 minutes of ancillary work, that includes some stretching, so we're definitely not putting the pedal to the metal. Just a handful of different exercises each night. We're using Dicharry's book as the guide, but progressing through it at slow pace. My goal is to see improvements by the spring/summer. I feel like if I take it slow and develop good habits, it will become automatic for me.

…Re: "Core / Stability" - one thing we are really working on is basic stuff like foot posture, toe strength, etc. In my mind, when you take a step back and think about "stability" - the first thing that matters is your foot... when the foot hits the ground, everything changes. So if you are out of alignment there, it just propagates up the kinetic chain. I'm working to get rid of any of the little "niggles" that have bothered me off and on in the past - plantar fascia, achilles. So far, so good. Those areas feel great and my foot shape is already looking better. We're taking photos to document the progress.

…Re: “CIM and Training” - …I think it was a blend - some of your ideas, some of ours, and it worked out pretty well. But there are definitely areas (BIG areas) for improvement.

I sat down over the holidays and looked at my training calendars for the past 3 years. I can find places where I strung together good stretches of smart training, but there were far too many areas I could circle and say "WHAT THE HELL WAS I THINKING?"

A lot of my "best" workouts weren't part of a progression. They were just isolated hard sessions, and who knows how much benefit I actually got from them. Sure, its great from a mental perspective to know you can run 10 x Mile under 5:00... but was I really adapting and reaping all of the benefits from that? Probably not.

So that's something I really want to do better with - a PROGRESSION of workouts. Starting slow (5:10 pace mile reps!) and working it down... making sure I do it in a logical manner and I'm fully adapting from block to block. I've been pretty good about progressing w/ the AT stuff, but I've had a tendency to just hammer out random LT workouts (which I'm pretty sure you've told me before) that don't really add up to anything.

Two rules for this year, regarding racing:
-Races needs to serve a purpose
-No chasing random prize money that won't mean anything to me in the long term!

I still like to get out there and compete. I'll use our local winter series as tempo runs of varying intensities, and I'm hoping to be in shape to take a stab at my half-marathon PR when I go down to visit my parents at the beginning of March. I think that's realistic without pushing things too hard in January/February. Then I'll move to the real block of half-marathon training in March/April... I'm going to run the USA 10 Mile Champs on April 6th (a good opportunity to visit friends on the east coast and that's a good distance to race to get used to goal half marathon pace).

When I look at the whole year, we're going to make July all about vacations, and then I'll focus solely on the marathon in the fall. A proper, LONG buildup... done the right way, the whole way.

T runner

Just a catch up on training:

Monday 6/1: Lunch 6k inc 12 x buildups and core
PM 15k easy HR 145
Tuesday: AM 12.5k easy HR 148
PM 12.5 E inc 3 x 4-5 buildups
Wednesday: Lunch 5k jog inc a little core
PM 19k inc 15.5 @ 3:52 pace (6:14)
Thursday: PM 23.5k easy-steady 4:43 pace
Friday PM 6k easy wi 5-6 strides
Saturday PM 10k inc 5 x 200m hard
Sunday 22k inc. Dublin Masters 6k in 21:30 (position 32nd) 8k wu 8k wd

Total about 131.5k (82 miles) (108.5k in single runs) 3 double days

Happy with that. 3 family members down with the flu so most runs were done late at night with people in bed.
Felt a slight sore throat on Friday so eased off planned mileage and hit the kiwi and banana smoothies, orange juice and fruit. Worked and have escaped (touch wood).
Felt ok on Sunday for the Dublin masters. 2 mins behind winner in 21:30 and speed was seriously lacking but im not worried. Im still carrying weight, and the slower I build up here, the more mileage ill be able to sustain and the fitter ill eventually be. Good little kick to LT.
Got a team bronze medal in a very competitive field so that was nice and glad to help the lads to get some reward for some strong runs.

My easier than planned weekend means I can have 3 weeks in a row before an easy week. So 2 to go now.

Monday 13/1: PM 21k @ 4:40 (7:30) pace. Easy-steady run around the perimeter of the Phoenix park. Some uphill, downhill and a nice fast bit back conningham road from Chapelizod so a good route to have available.

Tuesday 14/1: Lunch 6k easy PM 15k E
Wednesday: Lunch 8k inc 6 x 100 strides
PM 12.5k easy
Thursday: Lunch 5k inc drills and 5 x 100 relaxed strides.

Going to use lunchtime to introduce some drills and strength work.

Stazza

Building nicely. I like how you're blending in the strides and that Wednesday 19k run with 15.5k @ 6:14 ap was a solid run.

Raw organic cocoa powder, plums, cinnamon, and goji berries are all great to take daily, especially when you're building (stressing the body) or in the middle of hard training. Just throw them in your cereal - except the plum: eat that separately. They really do work at fighting off all the nasties.

T runner

Monday 13/1: PM 21k @ 4:40 (7:30) pace. 21k

Tuesday 14/1: Lunch 6k easy
PM 15k E 21k (42k)

Wednesday: Lunch 8k inc 6 x 100 strides
PM 12.5k easy 20.5k (62.5k)

Thursday: Lunch 5k inc drills and 5 x 100 relaxed strides.
PM 12.5 E
Late PM 10k E 27.5k (90k)

Friday: 25k: AM & PM 12.5 E commute to and from work 25k (115k)

Saturday: Afternoon: 20k inc 16k @ 184 HR 3:54 pace (6:16)
Splits 3:51 (6:12) out downwind (HR 179) 3:56 (6:20) back upwind (HR 187).
20k (135k)

Sunday; Long 31:75k in 2:27 4:36 pace 31.75 (166.75k)

Weekly Total 166.75 k (115k in singles)

I was tired during the week (from the XC last Sunday) and had logistic trouble wednesday and Thursday running my first effort session so decided to put in a day of volume on Thursday (in a triple instead)

I tried to run Saturdays effort session similar to the previous Wednesdays, but with the HR strap on but without HR showing on watch so I couldn't monitor.
Ran first section deliberately easier than last week. Was hanging on a wee bit coming back and it showed with the average HR equating to what should be marathon pace come race time (but is probably closer to threshold now).

Average pace at 3:53 was actually better than last week (last weeks was 3:56 made an error in calculation). The XC effort on Sunday obviously kicked in.
Again I felt more uncomfortable on the way out (downwind) than back. I think this is now a form issue. Im overstriding slightly (cadence too low I hope) and this is amplified with a backwind or a slight downhill making the impace uncomfortable, and masked against the wind which feels a lot easier, smoother with less impact forces (even for a higher HR).


Surprised by the pace on Sunday. This is a run I usually bonk on when I run it first. Its from Ballybough, over Howth head and back via Howth village. I haven't been bringing water or anything on these runs but decided to take a 5er in the pocket just in case. Took it (2 mars bars and a coke) at Howth village, also took the route back up the hill through Raheny village. The view of the expanse of journey you still have to run on the coast is a killer even on a relatively nice day. Plus that section of the Howth road has excellent new even tar on it with a generous bycicle lane. Pace was good for a mostly very easy effort but watch was on the blink so it may have been slower.

Plan this week is to cut back the HR for the effort session to max 180. Theres more development to be got in this range, and the other effort isn't sustainable at this stage for 2 sessions a week on high mileage. If my pace is slowing later in the effort session ill either segment the run or slow it.

Ill just continue with the strides and form work. May do strides this week in the form of slightly downhill diagonals which should help with cadence.

Plan at the moment is for similar mileage but will see how the early days go.

statss

Hey T Runner,

Question if you don't mind, for the steady/work days under the HADD philosophy, when exactly did you make the call to move up to the next level? I've done a couple of 1 hour runs now at the first level, 80-83%, at a steady enough pace, so according to the HADD document I could be ready to move on, but I'm thinking I should stay at this HR for a little while longer to "lock it in".

You posted about it on 23rd Dec - see bit in bold - so I'm wondering how many weeks did it take you to master the first effort range? Did you find the subsequent work efforts at 82%-85% to be much different/harder?

" Its neither hard nor easy to keep it going. Im running it out and back, often windy and find myself looking forward to change of wind at half way which means its a little tough. Speed fades to maintain HR in last 1/4 so endurcance and speed need to improve. I guess thats why mastering the first effort range takes longest in Hadds approac: you have to smooth out the resistance in the second half of the effort. Once that is achieved the time spent after moving up 5 beats to the next and subsequent zones should be less. This is because the specific endurance gained from teh lower zone should translate up in most part to specific endurance at the next zone."

AuldManKing

Hey T Runner - hope you don't mind another question:)

I was intrigued by your 'in run' fueling of 2 mars bars and a bottle of coke :eek:

Was this just an instinctive purchase in the shop or is it something you've done previously?

T runner

AuldManKing wrote: »

Hey T Runner - hope you don't mind another question:)

I was intrigued by your 'in run' fueling of 2 mars bars and a bottle of coke :eek:

Was this just an instinctive purchase in the shop or is it something you've done previously?

It was instinctive and Ive done it previously! The fizz in the coke nearly blew my stomach open after I started running again. Just knew I was low on gas and I decided to pre-empt a little this time instead of crawling into one of the petrol stations on the Howth road near Raheny half dead.
I suppose a lucozade sport might have been better. Or fruit and water probably the healthy option. As i said I haven't been carrying anything this year so just ticked in the 5er incase. Only happens about once a year and usually on that particular run.

T runner

statss wrote: »

Hey T Runner,

Question if you don't mind, for the steady/work days under the HADD philosophy, when exactly did you make the call to move up to the next level? I've done a couple of 1 hour runs now at the first level, 80-83%, at a steady enough pace, so according to the HADD document I could be ready to move on, but I'm thinking I should stay at this HR for a little while longer to "lock it in".

You posted about it on 23rd Dec - see bit in bold - so I'm wondering how many weeks did it take you to master the first effort range? Did you find the subsequent work efforts at 82%-85% to be much different/harder?

" Its neither hard nor easy to keep it going. Im running it out and back, often windy and find myself looking forward to change of wind at half way which means its a little tough. Speed fades to maintain HR in last 1/4 so endurcance and speed need to improve. I guess thats why mastering the first effort range takes longest in Hadds approac: you have to smooth out the resistance in the second half of the effort. Once that is achieved the time spent after moving up 5 beats to the next and subsequent zones should be less. This is because the specific endurance gained from teh lower zone should translate up in most part to specific endurance at the next zone."

Hi Statts. Youve caught me deviating from Hadds plan.I did a hard 70 min run on Xmas day to make an appointment (for a xmas swim). It averaged around 180. After that run I found my old range (around 170) was just too easy. That's one reason why Hadd is strict about not going over the upper range limit. If you do you will get a little fitter, and the old range will not stimulate your AT/LT sufficiently.
I would still get slight gains if I had persevered but there would not have been any great stimulus to my AT or LT. My thinking as that I would add this range to my "range" of ranges so that I would finish off developing those fibres in time.

Unfortunatly over the last 2 weeks i've deviated again. My previous 165-70 effort had slowed worringly after xmas )(by 20s a k).. (did too many slow and hilly runs)
Felt id no alternative but to up it as this was just too slow. Ive been really struggling with my average speed since I took 2 months off and as a master of 41 this is a big concern for me.
I seem to have got a little pace back but must now reign in my effort particularly in the second half of runs.
It wont be textbook Hadd, but once I reach max mileage, ill try and hit all the ranges and I should get most of the development.
The end result of this I hope will be being able to run 20k straight (or 2 x 10) @ 3:30 pace (70 mins) or thereabouts.

If this happens before April I might do the national 10k as that will mean I wont be far off sub 33 fitness.
I'm running with my club in the national masters in 5 weeks, but I wont deviate too much for that I hope.

Edit: I don't think another week or two at that range will do you any harm. You can always increase your mileage during those weeks as a stimulus and benefit from that down the line. Are you doing any strides?

statss

ah that clears up my curiosity, I couldn't relate your recent training posts back to HADD. Makes sense that you've deviated from what you've said.

I would do strides when I go up to the club, with the group before the session starts, but I shy away from them when I'm out trotting about on my own, which is more often now, so I guess I better be more diligent in doing them.

T runner

statss wrote: »

ah that clears up my curiosity, I couldn't relate your recent training posts back to HADD. Makes sense that you've deviated from what you've said.

I would do strides when I go up to the club, with the group before the session starts, but I shy away from them when I'm out trotting about on my own, which is more often now, so I guess I better be more diligent in doing them.

I'm still basing my training buildup on Hadd, but i'm not sticking to the letter of the law as Im a masters runner coming from a situation of no exercise at all for 2 months and the subsequent loss of speed. Hadd has been a means for me of getting my mileage up to where I want it and progressing aerobically.

The strides wouldn't be part of Hadds strict approach although some of his runners seem to have carried them out before the effort runs.

I think running with efficiently and economically during this phase is very beneficial so the strides help with that.

For my easy and recovery runs I have been using what I might dub "steady strides". Sometimes with high mileage (and after a session or long run) you can get stiffness before some runs. I perform a series of say 4-5 strides at close to marathon pace (slower or equal to it) with a slightly exaggerated motion. This has the effect of clearing the cobwebs for that easy run. The strides will have increased the "stiffness free" range of motion allowing easy pace running with a form not dissimilar to good marathon paced form.

If this means I can run the vast majority of my mileage economically then it should improve my economy longer term. These strides are steady enough as to take nothing out of you.

I did a lot of high mileage weeks for a marathon 2 years ago and many of those runs were 10-12k efforts limped out. The overall mileage got me very fit but im not sure how beneficial those runs were.

Then I did 110-30 k per week at a decent clip before raising it to 160k and limping the easy stuff between sessions.

This time im hoping to exceed 160 kpw easy and slowly crank the pace up to the "decent clip" so that my aerobic base increases significantly, i.e breaking an important limiter to marathon performance and training.
I remember vowing to myself two years ago never to forget that the amount of miles you run more or less determines how fit you can get.
Id change that now to to the amount of miles you run well.

That might mean doing enough strides/drills etc to ensure running with good form at all times. It also means I am wise enough to know that a recovery run is for recovering. Previously I would have just ran it easy and hoped for recovery. Now, I will do light strides, loosening sore muscles , whatever it takes to make the recovery happen.

Anyway, just to point out, strides are handy we dynamic tools to help the overall war effort.

PaulieC

T runner wrote: »

It was instinctive and Ive done it previously! The fizz in the coke nearly blew my stomach open after I started running again. Just knew I was low on gas and I decided to pre-empt a little this time instead of crawling into one of the petrol stations on the Howth road near Raheny half dead.
I suppose a lucozade sport might have been better. Or fruit and water probably the healthy option. As i said I haven't been carrying anything this year so just ticked in the 5er incase. Only happens about once a year and usually on that particular run.

I find the funsize mars bars perfect for eating on the go and much more palatable than a gel. This is what I'll be having in Donadea after using Wispas last year, which I found a bit dry.

T runner

PaulieC wrote: »

I find the funsize mars bars perfect for eating on the go and much more palatable than a gel. This is what I'll be having in Donadea after using Wispas last year, which I found a bit dry.

Ill keep that in mind from now on. Didn't like them as a kid. Love them now!

PaulieC

as far as I can tell (without having them in front of me) a fun size Mars has about 95 calories. I don't know exactly what gels have e.g. no calorific information on the HighFive website, but from memory I think they have about 100 calories per gel.
Obviously they are useless for normal running, unless you can figure a way to carry them without them melting :pac:

T runner

Monday 20/2/2014: Lunch 8k recovery run with some very light strides (slower than M pace)
PM 15k easy run home after work (some short light strides)

Tuesday Lunch : 9k Inc 8 x 10s hill sprints.
Took a leaf out of Krusty's book by starting on a moderate hill. 2 min recovery. A few light strides to warm up. Haven't done them in while so form was hit and miss. Good run.
PM 18k inc 13.6 steady @ 4:12 pace
First session of the week. Concentrated on running a little easier than recently. Route from work so it was shorter. Was happy enough with it although calculating my pace after (no garmin) made it seem quite slow. Not to worry, the session was definitely an effort one, and the cadence is feeling freer every run. The times will come down with patience. And the slower they come down, the more sustainable the high mileage is, and the lower the times will go.

Wednesday AM 12.5k easy.
Again used 20-40m steady exaggerated strides to make sure the run wasnt stiff. This is working very well for me. Even the cadence of the recovery runs is improving now. I'm consciously thinking about ground contact time in all runs now.

Ive a cut back week of about 20% after this week and hope to run a cycle of 3 high mileage weeks after with a cut back week following. At the end of that week ill have the National masters. My training will be naturally evolving to add a every 2-weekly track session 8-10k of continuous 200m @ 5k pace 200m steady. On the alternate week Ill also be transferring one of my efforts to an uphill threadmill. It will be handy for the HR too as the treadmill will have to be slowed as HR rises and I can record this accurately.
The week after the National masters, ill be down in Wicklow for a family weekend and will take in Debra Half marathon. An easy day immediately before is all ill rest for this so ill be more or less training through it.

Krusty_Clown

T runner wrote: »

The week after the National marathon, ill be down in Wicklow for a family weekend and will take in Debra Half marathon. An easy day immediately before is all ill rest for this so ill be more or less training through it.

National marathon?

T runner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

National marathon?

National masters!

I've been keeping a sneaky eye on your log. Youre doing some great training. Doesn't feel like i'm closing the gap at all!

Krusty_Clown

T runner wrote: »

National masters!
I've been keeping a sneaky eye on your log. Youre doing some great training. Doesn't feel like i'm closing the gap at all!

That makes more sense. Is that XC? Where's it on?
Yeah, I'm certainly enjoying the 5k plan so far, but it's really only the base-building phase. I'm hoping another 4 weeks of the base-period will make me resilient enough for the faster stuff. It's also nice to be committed to training without having a goal race at the end of it, as if I get a knock-back (illness/injury) I can push out the schedule instead of having to try to catch-up. I'll have to settle on a goal race at some point, but for the moment, it's low pressure enjoyable progress.

You're certainly cracking on with the progress yourself. I'm averaging 120km/week, and you're above that, with a commendable amount of quality. I've little doubt that our progress trend lines will intercept fairly soon (if they haven't already).

T runner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

That makes more sense. Is that XC? Where's it on?
Yeah, I'm certainly enjoying the 5k plan so far, but it's really only the base-building phase. I'm hoping another 4 weeks of the base-period will make me resilient enough for the faster stuff. It's also nice to be committed to training without having a goal race at the end of it, as if I get a knock-back (illness/injury) I can push out the schedule instead of having to try to catch-up. I'll have to settle on a goal race at some point, but for the moment, it's low pressure enjoyable progress.

You're certainly cracking on with the progress yourself. I'm averaging 120km/week, and you're above that, with a commendable amount of quality. I've little doubt that our progress trend lines will intercept fairly soon (if they haven't already).

I think the plan you've chosen is excellent. Any gains you make in the lower distances will impact directly on your marathon potential. There is enough mileage and quality there to improve your lifetime aerobic development, and you'll improve running economy due to running at a variety of speeds in a relaxed economical manner.

Yep, national masters XC, 23rd February Dunboyne. Flat and soft, I hear from one of the lads who ran the Leinster masters there in November. 7k I think. Ye'll have the team out for that Im sure?

I wouldn't be able to run a hilly steady 20 miler at sub 7 pace at the moment.
I found the Hadd approach great for sustainable mileage with the intensity cap at the higher HR. Im probably not getting the sleep now to handle hard sessions so it has fitted very well.
If I can continue handle the higher mileage, ill just keep cranking it out as long as im improving. Not having the target makes it easier. Ill have to do some real quality eventually but im happy to wait till well into the summer for that. Ill rest up for the odd race every month and might even do the odd Raheny winter 2 miler (with no specific training) for the Craic. Should help speed without killing the aerobic development. Might just step into Hadleys marathon plan if I reach that far on the high mileage.

If I get my target in October, i'm looking forward to retiring to the hills. Ill reward myself by taking up kite surfing in Dollymount and any unfulfilled running goals will have to be taken up by my daughter, although she's not aware of that yet.

T runner

Wednesday PM 12.5 easy
A little tired during this one.

Thursday Lunch: 9.5k easy. Top of Killiney hill. Legs tired as yesterdays runs a little too fast for recovery purposes. A few mini strides on flat to loosen muscles. Cruising the downhill gave a nice stretch too.

Will do effort run tomorrow night. If I get the chance Ill do a 23.5k loop home taking in a circuit of Killiney hill. The Saturday session last week and long run on Sunday isn't optimum so Saturday will be an easy day this week, probably 20k in total: 16/4 or 10/10 in doubles depending on how the legs are (10k/10k if very tired)

conavitzky

T runner wrote: »

Wednesday PM 12.5 easy
A little tired during this one.

Thursday Lunch: 9.5k easy. Top of Killiney hill. Legs tired as yesterdays runs a little too fast for recovery purposes. A few mini strides on flat to loosen muscles. Cruising the downhill gave a nice stretch too.

Will do effort run tomorrow night. If I get the chance Ill do a 23.5k loop home taking in a circuit of Killiney hill. The Saturday session last week and long run on Sunday isn't optimum so Saturday will be an easy day this week, probably 20k in total: 16/4 or 10/10 in doubles depending on how the legs are (10k/10k if very tired)

Fair play T you are fairly racking up the mileage for a man in your situation. It can be easy to make excuses to yourself when you have a young baby in the house! I know cause I was in the same situation early 2013.
Just a general query to yourself and anyone who watches this thread (the enigmatic Stazza being one!) if you don't mind. I see the done thing among most of the faster runners on the forum here is including double session days. What are the advantages/disadvantages versus single sessions. For example, I started implementing it this week on 2 of my easy days (Monday and Wednesday). Normally I would run 12-13k continuously at my easy pace. This week I done a lunchtime 8k and late evening 8k at easy pace. I know its an easier way to get in overall mileage but is the gain of this extra mileage offsetting the continuous time on the feet of the 12-13k effort? I hope that makes sense? My goal is to bring my mileage up to 90-100k / week (from circa 70-80)and think this will make it easier to achieve this. Apologies if this question has been done to death already on previous threads.

T runner

conavitzky wrote: »

Fair play T you are fairly racking up the mileage for a man in your situation. It can be easy to make excuses to yourself when you have a young baby in the house! I know cause I was in the same situation early 2013.
Just a general query to yourself and anyone who watches this thread (the enigmatic Stazza being one!) if you don't mind. I see the done thing among most of the faster runners on the forum here is including double session days. What are the advantages/disadvantages versus single sessions. For example, I started implementing it this week on 2 of my easy days (Monday and Wednesday). Normally I would run 12-13k continuously at my easy pace. This week I done a lunchtime 8k and late evening 8k at easy pace. I know its an easier way to get in overall mileage but is the gain of this extra mileage offsetting the continuous time on the feet of the 12-13k effort? I hope that makes sense? My goal is to bring my mileage up to 90-100k / week (from circa 70-80)and think this will make it easier to achieve this. Apologies if this question has been done to death already on previous threads.

Hi Conavitzy.

Thks Im doing most of the mileage on commutes/lunch so its the weekend that's hardest and ive done more than a few late night long runs then.

Its an interesting question:

Lydiard says that singles get you fitter than doubles.

I think you're on the right track. I have used (in this training cycle) doubles as a means to increase mileage. But as Stazza might say
each run (or day) should have a purpose.

If you look at say these points below, in no particular order: (may or may not be true but lets go with them)
1. Longer runs get you aerobically fitter
2. Running more frequently gets you fitter
3. Each run (or day) should have a purpose.
4. Higher mileage improves your aerobic base, making you fitter and able to train harder and recover quicker.

By putting in 2 x 8k instead of 12-3k straight you are gaining on 3 of the 4 points (2,3 and 4). Gaining on all 4 may not be possible initially, as a 12k/4k day for example may no longer be an easy day for you, and point 3 is lost. You cant afford to lose an easy day as that is when your body is actually "trained" after a hard day and you will thus lose the benefit of the hard day with the lost easy day.

You can see my easy days recently are usually even enough doubles as I'm increasing mileage. When I reach my desired mileage, ill start to lengthen one of the runs on the double days and shorten the other.


If 12k/4k was still easy then it would be better as youll gain more aerobically from your longer single run. I'm assuming you're building a base?
The easiest way to run a double day is 2 runs of equal length as you did.

What id suggest. To increase mileage. Add doubles as you are, so that all days maintain their purpose. When you've increased to your desired mileage, start slowly making one run of the double longer than the other on easy days to increase overall aerobic gains without compromising recovery.

I think that's the safest way to increase. If you always increase by less than 10% a week you'll get fitter than you thought possible.

BTW Another advantage of even doubles is that you can run them faster. So for example on a day when you felt a bit sprightly, you could run 2 x 8k at medium pace (usually less than, but up to marathon pace).
During a taper you would also even the doubles to make the day easier. Youre only interested in recovery and maintaining fitness at that stage.

Also, John Kellogg maintains that runs of durations 30,60,90,120 mins are most beneficial. I try and do that because I tend to agree. I did a lot of 9-10k runs for my last marathon (many in double days). The 45-50 mins it took me didn't benefit me much more than half hour runs I thought. This time I make sure these days are 60/30 or will be 90/30.


If you could get your easy days eventually to 60/30 youd be in great shape. Run the shorter one as easy as you like, 10 min miles..all good.

that might require you to be doing 110 kpw but that might be the optimum structure for you in that general range of mileage.

Lastly: Lydiard advocated his runners to run 100 miles per week at a strong aerobic effort. He also maintained some of them jogged nearly as much again in secondary runs. I believe this was the original of the typical schedules you see now for aerobic buildups, with 1 main run per day and one shorter very easy run/jog (except on long run day). That's why I think for aerobic development your easy day should eventually evolve to a 60 minute run, with a secondary 30 min light run/jog.

For your next buildup, next year or in the autumn you could progress further by going for 100k in singles before adding doubles.

Stazza

I agree with everything T says. There are a couple of other points too:

Once you start running over 60 mins you get diminishing returns (this is to do with complicated metabolic stuff) on runs up to 95 mins and you also increase your chances of getting injured, especially if you're doubling up.

Anything less than 35 mins and you aren't really getting any aerobic benefit (if runs are slow). Although shake-outs do have a point and are handy tools to use.

But what T says is bang on.

I tend to do 8's and 6's on recovery days. I run 13 times a week. I only run once on my LR day - although I might do a shake-out if I've worked hard.

Build carefully and run slowly and you'll be fine if you listen to your body and recover well between runs. Doubles also help in others way - I'll deal with those another time...

conavitzky

T runner wrote: »

Hi Conavitzy.

Thks Im doing most of the mileage on commutes/lunch so its the weekend that's hardest and ive done more than a few late night long runs then.

Its an interesting question:

Lydiard says that singles get you fitter than doubles.

I think you're on the right track. I have used (in this training cycle) doubles as a means to increase mileage. But as Stazza might say
each run (or day) should have a purpose.

If you look at say these points below, in no particular order: (may or may not be true but lets go with them)
1. Longer runs get you aerobically fitter
2. Running more frequently gets you fitter
3. Each run (or day) should have a purpose.
4. Higher mileage improves your aerobic base, making you fitter and able to train harder and recover quicker.

By putting in 2 x 8k instead of 12-3k straight you are gaining on 3 of the 4 points. Gaining on all 4 may not be possible initially, as a 12k/4k day for example may no longer be an easy day for you, and point 3 is lost. You cant afford to lose an easy day as that is when your body is actually "trained" after a hard day and you will thus lose the benefit of the hard day with the easy day.

You can see my easy days recently are usually even enough doubles as im increasing mileage. When I reach my desired mileage, ill start to lengthen one of the runs on the double days and shorten the other.


If 12k/4k was still easy then it would be better as youll gain more aerobically from your longer single run. Im assuming youre building a base?
The easiest way to run a double day is 2 runs of equal length as you did.

What id suggest. To increase mileage. Add doubles as you are, so that all days maintain their purpose. When you've increased to your desired mileage, start slowly making one run of the double longer than the other on easy days to increase overall aerobic gains without compromising recovery.

I think that's the safest way to increase. If you always increase by less than 10% a week you'll get fitter than you thought possible.

BTW Another advantage of even doubles is that you can run them faster. So for example on a day when you felt a bit sprightly, you could run 2 x 8k at medium pace (usually less than, but up to marathon pace).
During a taper you would also even the doubles to make the day easier. Youre only interested in recovery and maintaining fitness at that stage.

Also, John Kellogg maintains that runs of durations 30,60,90,120 mins are most beneficial. I try and do that because I tend to agree. I did a lot of 9-10k runs for my last marathon (many in double days). The 45-50 mins it took me didn't benefit me much more than half hour runs I thought. This time I make sure these days are 60/30 or will be 90/30.


If you could get your easy days eventually to 60/30 youd be in great shape. Run the shorter one as easy as you like, 10 min miles..all good.

that might require you to be doing 110 kpw but that might be the optimum structure for you in that general range of mileage.

Lastly: Lydiard advocated his runners to run 100 miles per week at a strong aerobic effort. He also maintained some of them jogged nearly as much again in secondary runs. I believe this was the original of the typical schedules you see now for aerobic buildups, with 1 main run per day and one shorter very easy run/jog (except on long run day). That's why I think for aerobic development your easy day should eventually evolve to a 60 minute run, with a secondary 30 min light run/jog.

For your next buildup, next year or in the autumn you could progress further by going for 100k in singles before adding doubles.

Thanks for input T. I will take on board what you say about eventually lengthening one of the runs on the double day. I am trying to build a stronger aerobic base for my second half marathon in May and figure that the mistake I made on my first one (and since I took up running) was that my easy days generally ended up not feeling easy (because they were run too hard for the fitness I had) with the effect that the hard session days ended up being forced rather than controlled and my overall training was just a bland ocean of mediocrity. I have slowed my easy runs way back so I can start fitting in a few extra k's comfortably without compromising the quality days.

I am in a conundrum in that I do my faster sessions with the club and don't generally know from week to week what sessions are planned so its very hard to plan out a few weeks ahead never mind a few months!
Tuesdays session was 1m w/u, 3x2mile, 1m w/d (to my mind that was a tempo session that should not be run too fast-comfortably hard) Tonights session was 1m w/u, 6x3/4m @ slightly slower than 5k pace. I suppose I need to quiz coach more about the purpose of each session. I think we will be running in vets XC so I am sure he has that in mind.

I generally just run 10k's and 5k's and am hoping that consistent mileage of 90k+ coupled with controlled quality days (not getting into races in training!) will improve my performances in these events.
My biggest issue is with increasing mileage is getting over the paranoia that people are talking about you! you know the - Jesus are you ever off the road comment that gets thrown at you.
What will they be saying when they spot me out twice in the one day on a regular basis!

I must say your thread and many others are excellent sources of information and tips.

conavitzky

Stazza wrote: »

I agree with everything T says. There are a couple of other points too:

Once you start running over 60 mins you get diminishing returns (this is to do with complicated metabolic stuff) on runs up to 95 mins and you also increase your chances of getting injured, especially if you're doubling up.

Anything less than 35 mins and you aren't really getting any aerobic benefit (if runs are slow). Although shake-outs do have a point and are handy tools to use.

But what T says is bang on.

I tend to do 8's and 6's on recovery days. I run 13 times a week. I only run once on my LR day - although I might do a shake-out if I've worked hard.

Build carefully and run slowly and you'll be fine if you listen to your body and recover well between runs. Doubles also help in others way - I'll deal with those another time...

Thanks Stazza. One of my new years resolutions is to listen to my body. I have been a stickler in the past for trying to muscle through sessions rather than staying relaxed. It is hard to override the ego sometimes ( a hare is there to be chased after and all that!).

T runner

Monday 20/2/2014:[/U] Lunch 8k recovery run with some very light strides (slower than M pace)
PM 15k easy run home after work (some short light strides)

Tuesday Lunch : 9k Inc 8 x 10s hill sprints.
PM 18k inc 13.6 steady @ 4:12 pace

Wednesday AM 12.5k easy.
PM 12.5k easy.

Thursday Lunch 10k Hilly: Killiney Hill
PM 12.5k easy (head cold)

Friday Lunch 8k Easy + strides
PM 12.5k easy (head cold)

Saturday AM 14.5 k easy
PM 10k easy (head cold)

Sunday 16.75 inc last 5k AT uphill (summit carpark Howth)
PM 3k recovery Jog

Weekly Total: 162.5

Headcold towards end of week so skipped thursdays effort run and split the weekend runs and ran them easy. Bar last 5k of yesterdays run where I ran with effort uphill from Sutton to Howth as cold seemed to have abated. Feeling OK today so have got away with it.

Ill be down to 130k this week to consolidate the 2 big 160+ weeks.
Plan is to get ready and rested for the 3 big mileage weeks to follow.

Will work on flexibility, speed and strength this week. Fliexibility will be Yoga work. Strenght will be taken from the below.

I like the last workout, 6k uphill with easy running leading in. The 6k uphill (quality) is mastered first, then the length of the run is extended. A precursor for runs involving MP pace, or fast long resistance runs slightly slower than M pace. (with the faster part at the end and being extended every run: eg 2.5 hrs with last 45 mins @95% MP pace. Next run 2:30 with last hr @ 95% MP.


And this is how it extends:

Stazza

T runner wrote: »

Monday 20/2/2014:[/U] Lunch 8k recovery run with some very light strides (slower than M pace)
PM 15k easy run home after work (some short light strides)

Tuesday Lunch : 9k Inc 8 x 10s hill sprints.
PM 18k inc 13.6 steady @ 4:12 pace

Wednesday AM 12.5k easy.
PM 12.5k easy.

Thursday Lunch 10k Hilly: Killiney Hill
PM 12.5k easy (head cold)

Friday Lunch 8k Easy + strides
PM 12.5k easy (head cold)

Saturday AM 14.5 k easy
PM 10k easy (head cold)

Sunday 16.75 inc last 5k AT uphill (summit carpark Howth)
PM 3k recovery Jog

Weekly Total: 162.5

Headcold towards end of week so skipped thursdays effort run and split the weekend runs and ran them easy. Bar last 5k of yesterdays run where I ran with effort uphill from Sutton to Howth as cold seemed to have abated. Feeling OK today so have got away with it.

Ill be down to 130k this week to consolidate the 2 big 160+ weeks.
Plan is to get ready and rested for the 3 big mileage weeks to follow.

Will work on flexibility, speed and strength this week. Fliexibility will be Yoga work. Strenght will be taken from the below.

I like the last workout, 6k uphill with easy running leading in. The 6k uphill (quality) is mastered first, then the length of the run is extended. A precursor for runs involving MP pace, or fast long resistance runs slightly slower than M pace. (with the faster part at the end and being extended every run: eg 2.5 hrs with last 45 mins @95% MP pace. Next run 2:30 with last hr @ 95% MP.


And this is how it extends:

T, that's it, that's the way to go. Just watch that you put more recovery days in and also be mindful of the plyometric nature of the exercises (Monday); To go straight into those exercises could result in problems, especially on top of miles and the other aspects of C's preparation schedules. If you look closely at what your man's doing, you'll see there's a strength and power element in the training while slightly fatigued. The guys were doing these prep schedules after years of more basic stuff, which is very effective. I'll route around in my paperwork and transcribe the 'real schedules' that the guys were doing before they got to this stage in their development. Give me some time though, I'm very busy. If you're going to fire straight into this, I'd strongly suggest you leave out the Monday session and work off a Hadleyesque 9 day schedule using the other sessions in the C. prep. schedule.

Great to see you thinking like this, it's the way forward. But baby steps first. Be really mindful of recovery.

T runner

Stazza wrote: »

T, that's it, that's the way to go. Just watch that you put more recovery days in and also be mindful of the plyometric nature of the exercises (Monday); To go straight into those exercises could result in problems, especially on top of miles and the other aspects of C's preparation schedules. If you look closely at what your man's doing, you'll see there's a strength and power element in the training while slightly fatigued. The guys were doing these prep schedules after years of more basic stuff, which is very effective. I'll route around in my paperwork and transcribe the 'real schedules' that the guys were doing before they got to this stage in their development. Give me some time though, I'm very busy. If you're going to fire straight into this, I'd strongly suggest you leave out the Monday session and work off a Hadleyesque 9 day schedule using the other sessions in the C. prep. schedule.

Great to see you thinking like this, it's the way forward. But baby steps first. Be really mindful of recovery.

Yep, I did the Monday session last year and it was tiring. In particular the one legged high knee hops are leg killers. Just basing some of the exercises off this schedule for now. Anything new is going to be introduced in small proportions that can be recovered easily from. Will build slowly.

Did Tuesdays drills today, and 6 downhill strides.



Ill probably just add squats and stars to a few other exercises as well as my core work for the strength plyo/workout. Starting with just 2 reps. The main emphasis is still the building of the aerobic base, but I want to touch on more aspects a little from now on: strength, speed, flexibility as I tend to react well to them.

Also Ill try and do a lot of different types of exercises to make sure I cover all the bases of strength and flexibility. More fun too and easier to get motivated for.

I have a potential circuits session on Wednesday. A Canadian trainer with a lot of exercises over an hour that includes a lot of the Monday and Tuesday stuff.

Club circuits on Thursday although the location is an hour jog away and another hour jog home. If I jog in to work, that's 3 hours running.
Might do that once a month.

I have the national masters in 4 weeks. Feeling fresh now but ill keep it easy till Thursday and then start 3 more weeks building tapering from Thursday 23rd for an easy week including National Masters XC on the 26th.
Going to try and consolidate the mileage now. If I can get the elements into my schedule this week, ill do 160-170-180k the following 3 weeks with the elements in:
2 days quality (16k or 70 mins) just below AT. Long run with just a little pressure.
Considering the following options for my quality run now:
-- 200m@5k pace/200m steady continuous run for 8-10k on track preferably
-- 60-70 mins continuous uphill 3-6' on treadmill @ <178 HR
-- HR progression run: Either Hadd test or on uphill treadmill 3-6'

If I can get those 3 weeks in the bank, I Should have the template I need to start bringing the running speeds/total mileage up (with same time running), and to start varying the sessions and enjoying the fitness, for the next month block (March-April).
One session i'm looking at is a 10k time trial (possibly with slight progression).
Ill look at extending that by 2k a week at the same pace until I hit 20k at that pace by early April.
Canova maintains that the special resistance gained from such a run will not only allow the 20k to be run as fast as the 10k was previously: but it will also force the time of the 10k time-trial and subsequently 10k race pace (and other race paces) down.
This might be one explanation why Paula Radcliff was able to knock chunks off her 3k time after marathon training, when previously years of rep training could barely knock a second off her final lap.

National 10k is early April. So perhaps one race pace session 8-9 days out from the race. If things go well I could be there or there abouts for a masters M40 medal if my 10k time is near 33:00.

Ill resume aerobic training for the rest of month now with light R pace, LT pace and AT pace stuff. May then looking at some (conservative side) 3k, 5k training (all with good recovery) looking for a fast 5k time then.

A little recovery perhaps and then 5 month marathon plan starts in June.
Target races on route: August 4th. National marathon. Hoping for individual and team masters medal and to run sub 72 (at least).

Late August: Warriors run: Local race. 14.2k hilly road race including 4k of offroad mountain climb in middle. Running sub 54 in good conditions gives me a chance. That's the target. The strength needed to run the last road 6k fast is not dissimilar to the strength needed to hold speed or speed up in the last 10k of a marathon.

Then 9 weeks to Frankfurt marathon, hopefully aiming for something under 2:30.

Talk is cheap!

Krusty_Clown

Great to get a 100 mile week completed, particularly with a head cold. Hope you're on the mend. I'm juggling with something similar at the moment and trying not to drop the mileage/quality. On the subject of flexibility, speed and strength, this week's 5k schedule calls for a 'Strength Endurance Hill Circuit'. I figured that this was some sort of hilly tempo run, but after doing a quick search, I found this video by the man himself (Steve Magness), inspiringly called 'Strength Endurance Hill Circuit', so I'm guessing that this is approximately what he had in mind. If you have a couple of minutes to spare, could you take a look and tell me what you think? Coming from someone who has never done any bounding, squat-jumps or ankle flips, am I asking for trouble by jumping into this session (if you'll pardon the pun)?

T runner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Great to get a 100 mile week completed, particularly with a head cold. Hope you're on the mend. I'm juggling with something similar at the moment and trying not to drop the mileage/quality. On the subject of flexibility, speed and strength, this week's 5k schedule calls for a 'Strength Endurance Hill Circuit'. I figured that this was some sort of hilly tempo run, but after doing a quick search, I found this video by the man himself (Steve Magness), inspiringly called 'Strength Endurance Hill Circuit', so I'm guessing that this is approximately what he had in mind. If you have a couple of minutes to spare, could you take a look and tell me what you think? Coming from someone who has never done any bounding, squat-jumps or ankle flips, am I asking for trouble by jumping into this session (if you'll pardon the pun)?

I think youll be OK krusty. It could be tough on the cold thats the only thing.
Take the first one at 80% effort for the Plyo bits. Concentrate on technique and power.
The bounding is basically emphasizing a big leap and holding it in position for maximum air time. Powerful bounds forward. The Sprint at the end is your hill sprint.
You can over-emphasise leg speed or power for some of the sprints if it suits.
Just be very conservative. Ease into it.
Its a tiring session, so look at the recovery available and plan accordingly.

Re. The cold, I just halved the runs and ran them easy, trying to keep HR in a zone where I wouldn't be challenged at all. I sacrificed quality for maintenance runs but cold was gone in a few days (hopefully) so it was worth it

T runner

Monday 27/1/2014

Lunch 6k inc Drills and 6 x Diagonals

Butt kicks 40m
Fast Feet 40m (tiny extremely rapid steps prefereably on a slight uphill)
High skipping 40m
Diagonal bounding 40m
High Knees 30m
Bounding 30m

3 x Sets

Followed by 6 x Diagonals (Stride a diagonal of a pitch, jog an end or side before next diagonal)

PM 12.5 Easy @ 4:35 pace run home.

Lunch drills worked a treat. I found that the form was good starting the diagonals. The location I use is a soccer pitch that has a slant from side to side (rather than end to end). So the diagonals are slightly downhill which is perfect.
The first 1 or 2 were OK, I tried to force the leg speed.
Then I just speeded up for 1/2 the diagonal and let the hill speed me more, I didn't force the leg speed, but I made sure not to stride too long or brake. The legs had to naturally turn over rapidly to keep pace. And for the first time I was able to isolate the viscosity in the legs. Felt a light sharpness all over legs as if all moving muscles were being stretched lightly. Did 3 more and the stretching sensation faded a great deal. Decided not to tempt fate and left it at that.
Jogging back, form was excellent and leg speed not an issue. I felt I had a bigger range of turnover without discomfort or sluggishness.
I think strides after drills are essential for transferring the work exactly to the correct running muscles while running. Running economy gains will be a significant part of any improvements I make this year.

The progress from the drills/strides session continued to the easy run home. Into a slight headwind ran easily enough with good form and no cadence issues at 4:35 pace.

Tuesday:

Lunch 6k very easy inc core work and Some very light strides. Felt Mondays lunch session a little. Effort run postponed till wednesday. Form still good. Very slight signs of cold lingering.

PM: Easy run home with good form and cadence.

Wednesday:

PM Effort run: 15.3k @ 3:47-8 pace

Out (against wind 7.65k) 4:01 Pace
Back (Downwind 7.65k) 3:34 Pace

I was expecting an improvement here. Pretty rested after 2 big 160k weeks so plenty of strength, and I was wondering how Mondays drills and strides would help in a faster run. That said, I had more food in my system than I would have liked and was a little apprehensive as I hadn't run fast in a while.

Jogged the couple of K out to the cycle track at Clontarf (I usually start close to where Clontarf half starts). Route goes from forst carpark near Alfie Byrne road out to near end of cycle track at Sutton and back. For a change the wind had turned and the outward leg was into a stiffish breeze, with a strong tailwind back (which helps with pacing.)
I repeated 1 light mini- set of Mondays drills and 1 stride, in the last 500 metres of my WU. Worked well as I was able to get straight into it. Comfortable enough out to the turning point. A quick pit stop and stretch. Now the test. Cadence just about able for the downwind speed. Probably the fastest ive run since I retuned from my layoff late October. Probably faster than a lot of strides i've been doing!
Passed a young lad, under 20, in opposite directions on my way out near enough Sutton. On the way back caught up with him just after the causeway, he was running strong enough in the grass verge at 4 min pace-ish. Perhaps, he was doing a medium length steady run. Anyway when he heard the footsteps approach he sped up! and started running in front of me! so I used my hill running shortcut detector to sneak in front of him where the cycle lane went on-road for a stretch. This was running's version of homer slapping him in the face with a glove: "You've insulted my honour sir, I challenge you to a du-el!"
The race was on! He was breathing hard and seemed to believe that my pace would abate soon. There's 6 more kilpmeters of this son, I thought to myself not sadly.
Well I heard him smoke, heard him smoke some more, heard him burn..and heard the explosion as he blew just behind!
Normally his presense would be an unwelcome distraction but it had been so long since I had run faster that it just added to the enjoyment. I wont be charging Raheny or whatever club he belonged to for the lesson. Fun over, no more messing like that for the rest of the year.
It turned out I had upped the pace by 5s a k for that kilometer and it meant that the last 2k were more painful than necessary. Lesson learned by me too.

Averaged 3:34 on my garmin for that downwind half. For a 2:30 marathon Ill have to average 3:32 on garmin for the whole thing (last 2 marathons shows garmin running 1.5 secs/k faster than time suggests). That's daunting, but Im making progress. Ran that 15.3k almost 2 mins faster than previous. 1 min from fitness, 1 min from form (from Mondays drills/strides). Given in-effiencies of running in wind, the session was probably equiv. to a 60 min even flat ten miler.

Same as Monday again today, so good running form continues through all runs into the weekend. and might add paw skips this time.