Speedy Gonzales or Slowpoke Rodriguez?
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Sorry my post was misleading.
Trail races and hill/mountain races all can come under IMRA events.
Trail races would have significant climbs too but take place mainly on better quality trails or forestry roads.
Mountain/Hill runs tend to be on more technical terrain/sometimes open mountain although not always the case.
IMO hill/mountain runs might give you that more spiritual one with nature experience.
Trail run not a bad way to start though as you'll get a good training stimulus for a race and you'll get used to the off-road in a gentler way so to speak. If you want the full immersive experience go for a full mountain race.
Here is the calendar: If you fancy any of these let me know and I can advise.
https://www.imra.ie/events/?FutureOnly=1&filter=yes&year=2022
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Yep I saw that event list and top of coom was one I thought might work in my calendar.
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"Nice fast course, Forrest trail, Bog road, and open Mountain."
Should be perfect.
A few tips:
Start at the front you'll be contending for this.
As you're new to the descents you may be slightly relatively slower on technical bits. Make up for this by covering the good parts lightening fast. ie run faster than race pace going down good quality surfaces as you'll get the recovery on the technical bits.
If things narrow into a single track make sure you're leading your group. If you're the fastest up or down it gives you open space ahead, if you're not the fastest you give your competitor a problem.
Pick a spot near the end of the race where you are confident that 9/10 times the person leading the group at that point will prevail. Make sure you are leading the group at that point.
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Thanks a mill. Love the optimism! If I'm up front I'll no doubt get lost.
I'm hopeful I'll be able to do it but will depend on family etc.
Thanks again for the tips and advice.
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Have been meaning to update but that mountain gets higher and higher.
I'll post current training and update missing weeks as I go.
Next goal is world masters mountain running champs in Clonmel, Tipperary, September 3rd.
I am a few days over 50 on the day and therefore the babyface in M50 category.
Aiming for Team and hopefully individual medals.
I have been suffering from a chronically tight calf and I'll fill you in on those woes.
That said I am getting very fit and have lost considerable weight.
I managed a 90min easy run on hills today off road with no issues. Hard flat surfaces annoy the calf.
I have been using cycling to replace my second daily run and my cycling has been transformed. I feel I have a lot of climbing (running) power from it.
Under 4 weeks to go and its all out with training, nutrition, rest etc (where possible) from here.
I'm even skipping the Warriors this year!
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Update on sessions:
After battling endessly with my calf I went nuclear, banned myself from running on hard services, got the most painful calf massage ever, that included some dry needling, electrotherapy....started adding toe yoga and being ultra consisteant with all my calf exercises....and things started to improve.
8-9 August managed two hilly offroad runs, 90mins and 80 mins. No issues.
10 August managed a run in the Park with 40 mins at a steady effort (20-10-10).
The following saturday did a Hilly Fartlek session with a couple of 10min+ climbs on good trail, with some fast striding on the descent between. Was pleased to note my time had me up there not far off the best times for the segment. That evening I ran 50 min off road again and hilly, some of it steady. Consolidating the calf strenght I was getting back from the off-road stuff.
A couple of days later I did a muscular endurance leg workout in gym (60 x step ups, 60 x lunges, 60 x squat jumps, 60 x scissor jump lunges as per 'Uphill Athlete' book). This was the 4th such session I had done, something I could do through my calf issues. Hot Yoga, Core work, cycling and being able to run easy meant I had lost weight, gained general running fitness, gained leg strenght. Getting time to start getting specific.
Yesterday 17 August:
Uphill treadmill session. Another I got from Uphill athlete but this was similar to one I did a couple of times myself years ago, albeit off a poor base then.
Session starts at 2 x 10 x (30', 30') with the ultimate goal of 30 x (30', 30'). 30' hard (zone 4 in a 5 zone HR model) with the 30' "recovery" not much slower. They say only 5-7 bpm. I was going on feel and went with the fastest speed I could recover at (these are basically uphill alternations)
Jog recover between sets is generous initially 5-10 mins.
I decided I might be able to manage 3 sets. Grade I set was 15% which I have found historically best bang for buck and is the grade of the first major climb in the world masters mountain running champs. That race climb is on a boreen so the turnover on treadmill would be specific enough.
Settings and Feedback:
Climbs 1 and 2: Incline was 15%, 10mins climb of alternating between 10kph/8kph every 30s. 5 mins jog between/after sets included 2 x 20s fast flat strides
C1/2 @ grad 15% (30',30') @ (10kph,8kph)
C 3 @ grad 11% (30', 30') @ (12kph, 10kph) for 5"
C4 @ grad 15% @ 9kph for 5''
Total climbing 662.5 (coincidently just like upcoming race)
HR Data:
C1: 92-98% LT
C2: 95-104% LT
C3: 94-102% LT
C3: 94-102% LT
Note: HR climbed slowly, didn't reduce for the recovery portions. Too small a speed gap perhaps.
Strides were 16-18kph on flat between climbs.
Last climb straight into 18kph for 30s to simulate climb to descent transition.
Post edited by demfad on5 -
Update time:
New Target- Madeira marathon Jan 22, 23
Recent training and races:
SEPTEMBER:
RACE: Sept 4th. World Masters Mountain Running 11th M50 (Team silver)
SESH: 20'' @ 10 mile pace (off 5'') 8 x 1''@ 5k pace (off 1'') + UP/DOWN 20' @3:33
LONG: 30'' WU 40'' effort 30'' WD 40' @ 3:45 per km (net downhill)
SESH: 20'' @ 10 mile pace (off 5'') 12 x 1'' @ 5k pace (off 1'') + UP/DOWN 20'' @ 3:30 Minutes (flat ones) ave 3:19
LONG: 50'' tempo (up/down were both 30''-ish) 50'' @ 3.41 pace.
RACE: EcoTrail 19k 3rd place
SESH: WU 20m + 15 x 1m (off 5m, 1m) CD 3:35 pace for 20m. Low 3:20s for minutes
OCTOBER:
LONG: WU 50mins strong WD = 25 steady 50 @ 3:47
SESH: Part of: WU 20 + 15x1min + WD (off 5, 1) 20 @3:34
LONG: WU 20k effort WD 20K @ 3:52 PART OF ([email protected]:09)
SESH: WU/CD 10k (36:34) + 6 x 45'' (off 5', 75'')
RACE: Coney Island 10 miler (58:40) CONTROLLED EFFORT KINDA
SESH: WU/CD 15 x 2mins, off 2mins
LONG: WU 14 mile Tempo @ 3:52
SESH: Aerobic Intervals/strides: 3 x 6 x 15-25s
SESH: WU 20' @ LT , 3.5' @ LT off 3' CD (3:29 pace)
LONG: Long run 33K @ 4:18 OVER HOWTH HEAD
NOVEMBER:
SESH: 30 mins easy 10 x 3 mins (off 2'') 30 mins easy (@3:34)
SESH: Long fartlek: Supposed to be 16 miles tempo wi WU/CD but went out too fast and had to alter the session. After 8k fast did mixture of hill strides and tempo segments.
LONG: (NEXT DAY) 2 hrs and 5 mins @ 4:28 HILLY ROAD
RACE: Run in the dark 10k ABOUT 35:20 (CONTROLLED AND LAST 2K IN CROWDS SLOWED)
LONG ABANDONED: CALF NIGGLE AGAIN
Brings up to present day. Calf nearly right
CLONTARF HALF SATURDAY. Will do 10 mins LT tomorrow to wake up system.
Given standard in 75+ range I should be able to go with leaders. Hope body cooperates!
Post edited by demfad on5 -
Some fantastic sessions in that T - made me go back and go through your strava as of late - you're flying these days.
A lot of very slow runs to manage the calf - but some great sessions - that 10miler in Coney Is - your 5k split was faster than my 5k PB!!
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It was down hill and down wind. The return 5k on the return was not so fast!
I am going well. I was strong after training for the September hill race (albeit intermittent with sessions but consistant running).
That quickly translated into gains on tempo type runs.
If I can get fit enough to run long tempos 10-16miles+ I get really fit.
Slow twitch guys and gals dont need to do those long tempos as much as us greyhounds AMK ;-)
Calf is just about sorted again but unfortunately had to skip the HM. Hope to do a session Wednesday but that will be 3 full weeks since the last one.
Madeira marathon is goal in 8 weeks - 1day.
It's masters Euro champs so time secondary to place.
I think if I train more for endurance I will increase the chances of a solid run and also of nicked places near the end.
Bit of a hill on the lap and temp in the 20s so a bigger strenght component anyway.
Youre flying too and unlucky re dublin but i assume Jingle Bells will get a going over in revenge?
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Update time:
NOVEMBER:
(SESH: 30 mins easy 10 x 3 mins (off 2'') 30 mins easy (@3:34)
SESH: Long fartlek: Supposed to be 16 miles tempo wi WU/CD but went out too fast and had to alter the session. After 8k fast did mixture of hill strides and tempo segments.
LONG: (NEXT DAY) 2 hrs and 5 mins @ 4:28 HILLY ROAD
RACE: Run in the dark 10k ABOUT 35:20 (CONTROLLED AND LAST 2K IN CROWDS SLOWED)
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(26th Nov. CLONTARF HALF SATURDAY. Will do 10 mins LT tomorrow to wake up system.)
Didn't race Clontarf: CALF NIGGLE AGAIN
DECEMBER:
Managed low weekly mileage, but niggle (calf tightness) persisted do no sessions.
(From 24th December)
LONG: 20 hilly Miles mostly steady (lower end steady)
LONG: Long run 22 miles including 12 steady (faster).
LONG: 23 miler, about 17 steady effort. Died last 3 miles.
JANUARY:
SESH: WU 3 x 6 x 40" + 4k
LONG: 18 miles INC. WU 12k-8k-4.5k (off 4 mins jog)
LONG: 16.5 MILES inc 10 tempo and 4 steady (meant to be 10 tempo but died)
LAST 2 WEEKS 100 MILES, 90 MILES
TAPER TIME MARATHON IN 2 WEEKS!!! 😮😥😫
Only 14 days session training since the niggle and 2 weeks to go so have no choice but to taper.
With limited time idea was to risk two big weeks and plenty of long runs to regain strenght and create endurance.
Struggled with these but after taper I should get a good burst of strenght from it and should have enough endurance to fade respectfully
Recover, recover, recover most important, I'll work on some easy leg speed perhaps and one last maintenance 13 miler.
ie this week
15 x 1min on/off
MLR 13 mile (last 3 steady)
Next week easy till race,
My tactics in the marathon will be the tortoise approach although I may not catch any hares and may be caught by other tortoises!
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What the flip you flippers looking at!!! Madeira European Masters report coming......not pretty..don't do what I did!!!!
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Hey T - I'm interested to hear your learnings from the Marathon (& see the report).
You've also rebounded well going by your recent 10m time.
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European Master Marathon, Funchal. Madeira. Race report:
Background: I entered this with a "build at and they will come mentality" or rather enter a January championship marathon and you will have to build your fitness. After returning from a 2 year voluntary running drought I was rebuilding fitness which was going well albeit with interuptions from niggles in particular with the calves.
After afew hill races, the strenght from the hills quickly converted into flat temp speed with my LT pace jumping to 3:30 per km (not my LT pace but my 20 min continuous run pace, but still..).
I built on that to run a 50 min tempo in what would have been a low 59, 10 mile time if Id ran for 9 mins longer. I then alternated these with longer tempos, 20k and 24k averaging 3:52. This felt shy of marathon effort on a hilly course in winter weather which was promising. I figured running sub 2:40 and being strong at the end have me a good chance of podium in the target marathon and I was on that path or close to it with 3 months left. I didn't have to do anything special, just follow the course, complete the runs safely, be consistent. I knew this, my coach (Stazza) was trying to drill it into me.
I ran an 58 low (9.7 miler) with much on beach and a 35 low 10k (It was probably equivilant to a sub 35, wasn't 100% effort and last 2k slowed right down due to catching the main race body on the last lap). Was visiting in Sligo, due a 16 mile tempo. Blew it and race the first 5 miles in I was @ 29:30 and I knew I coudn't maintain without a race effort. I abandoned that session and added some reps hill sprints to make it a long run with mixed fartlek. On the hoof decided to run long next day and the weekend was a 40 miler. Within a week my calf had had enough and I had to pull out of the Clontarf half which was part of my marathon build up. That was 11 weeks before Madeira and after trying Physios, and stuck in that horrible place where you feel the fitness blow out the door but you can't really rush back. Anyway, I wasn't able to run a session or run more than an hour until 4.5 weeks before marathon. Careful plans I had devised with the coach for the last few months were out the window due to that training mistake.
I had to go as myself and my Dad were booked for a week break in Madeira, so I was going to run the marathon no matter what.
The calf trouble vanished, and I ran two big weeks (ave 95 miles) with about 6 long runs. My plan was to force the muscle into getting very tired and quickly "training" the muscle I had trained before the niggle. Overview from Strava at bottom.
Was happy enough with progress.
I felt very very rusty sp did an aerobic intervals sessions (John Kellogg) type and combined it with 10 min s at LT in place of the the normal VO2 max finishing rep. Also did a couple of the sessions on the TM for efficiency. This was a good call and the alternations session I did was particulary iseful for getting the legs feeling more fluid.
A long run broken into intervals to get 18 miles hard in didn't quite come off with my calf starting to give out. Got most of it done and was out of time for the big sessions..
Onto the race:
Madeira is a beautiful Island full stop. Good for older folk as no sandy beaches, so not a smany families, or lager lout groups.
Hilly though. The race organisers picked out a relatively flat 7k out and back lap (not flat, quite hilly). 4 and a half of these followed by 10k down in Funchal (capital) centre and port. Very good quality tarmac for the lap with some cobbles and more wind exposure at the flat ground on the port.
Very good organization with a slight hitch in that just one person had to mark off (with a highlighter) every masters athletes race number. Took ages and affected my warmup a little. Got it in though. Had my Maurten drink in the tummy with my coffee and was carrying a few gels.
The main marathon was starting 5 mins before the masters. I heard the gun go and realized that I was at the back of the masters field and unlikely to get towards the front before start time. I didn't mind my plan was to start steady and work my way in. Try and take some of the fade I was fearing out that way. Off we went and i started real easy, and with plenty of room on the road to ease past runners. It wasn't long before the leaders flew past in the opposite direction after they completed the first 180' turnpoint (two per lap).
I recognised the favourite in my category, a German who had won the World Masters Mountain running 050 in Clonmel in '22. Recognized the 3rd place guy in Clonmel, a Frenchman. They were not travelling much faster than me and I believed podium was possible. Split was 38:35 for 10km (didnt have watch so was not looking at times pace, just running at a steady feel and visuals from leaders running towards me.)
Very much in the groove now and could finally see the Frenchman's group up ahead. This could potentially put me in silver in my category. I passed a big Romanian athlete at this time. I was controlled on the uphills and very fast and efficient coming down: felt like jogging but was passing everyone around me downhill. Around 15km I passed a big Romanian (in a younger category).
There is a steep little climb near towards the half way point of the lap before a descent to lap end. On the climb at about 19k (lap 3 I guess) the Romanian caught back up and passed. I tried to tell myself he was moving faster not me slower, but I was doubting a little. I passed him on the down but at a water station guzzled 2 drinks and hosed myself with two more. It was warmish (18') but was accustomed to heat from hot yoga. I was working.
Romanian dude passed me going back up and pulled away at 21k. Nevertheless this split from 10k-21k was faster than my first 10k and indeed faster than the race leader (i thought) in my category. Through half way in 81:05. Don't really know how I managed that given the prep, but my new Vaporflys were loving those downhills.
Frenchman wasn't getting closer and a couple of Portugese runners and a Spaniard had been dropped by his group. I focused on using these runners to handrail myself up the field. Caught them but the Frenchman was out of sight and we were coming near end of the lap phase and heading down a steep hill to the port. I pulled a huge gap on the descent without trying too hard and decided I would give my all til the end. There was a chance I was in 3rd.
Pass 30k with an average pace just under a 2:45 marathon.
About a kilometer into the new surroundings my legs started to tire significantly. I passed the leading female from the main race but my pace had slowed big time. We were on a smaller up and down the port lap and I could see a Spaniard who had broken ahead from Frenchmans group now hunting the German down. This was a race for Gold and Silver in my category and it meant I was out. At 35k I am struggling badly, trying to keep form and efficiency.
Now the woman I recently passed: passes me! I won'y bore ye but suffice to say final mile was probably 10 mins. That's accurate.
Nearly stopped but kept going and made the line with relief. Chatted to Frenchman. I asked him was he third he seemed very doubtful. In fact he was only 6th in the M50 category despite finishing 15th in the race!
The German won but was in third at 30k a minute behind second and most of 7 minutes behind the leader at that point. The leader at that stage was a Spaniard from Mallorca, a world class trail runner and a mentor to Killian Jornet--and a 2:25 marathoner (ran 2:28 in Barcelona yesterday). He hadn't prepped specifically for this race and suffered as badly as I did in the latter stages. He was winning inside the last mile and ended up in 4th position! Even for the best the marathon deserves respect and specific training.
The German who is a classy runner dealt with all the opponents to take the win when presented. He deserved it, fair play. Time was 2:38:48.
I was roughly correct in predicting the time needed to podium, but hadn't predicted the Spaniard or the stacked race.
Lessons:
1: Be patient especially when you're a master and build sustainably. If you're greedy and do to much you get injured, you get found out when older.
2: Given my circumstances with 4 weeks to race day: the 2 big week with 6 long runs gambit did whack my fitness up a lot. Could I have tailored it better?
3: Yes: I tried to run the long reasons steady from the get go. You need the layers. First run should have been very easy, very slow, very long. I tried to cut that corner, I didn't need to or shouldn't have and it made the fade worse.
4: My idea was right to go for big volume and big long runs (fitness, leg strenght)
5: The calf niggle worry did limit me. As I was in full experimental mode maybe a modification of Canova's special blocks may have worked.
So with a special block you can do an extra 50% work in a day than with one session alone. I could have doubled up, got the extra volume in which meant my fitness would not have been a limiter when trying to get leg strenght back.
6: Not taking enough carbs during runs. I wasn't pushed on this as I felt i needed to learn how to spare carbs quick. Should have carbed myself to my eyeballs and given my legs a better chance to get trained up and stronger. Also, to learn how to ingest the gels efficiently during the race. I am sure my body should have been able to absorb more if i had done so in a few long runs.
7: Treamill: for the alternations I had the treadmil on 1% for efforts but on 0% for the 'recovery' portions. 0% on treadmill in my opinion is same technique as sjhllow downhill running. The foot tries to cheat and get off the mill quickly resulting in light fasted and very economical steps which are whats most efficient downhill. Convicned those treadmil runs really helped me with those downhills. I didnt push any uphills and made my time on the downs.
I am in for Belfast on April 30th. Given my 81 first half in Madeira my plan is to improve on that average and remove 11 minute fade for a possible sub 2:40. Belfast has a tough second half, but no niggles this time and have set up and am well into an exciting schedule with the coach. I'll fix typos later!
Post edited by demfad on5 -
TRAINING CATHCUP:
Target: Belfast Marathon. April 30th 2023.
With a Marathon split of 81/91 in Madeira endurance was the obvious weakness.
After chatting to Stazza we agreed strenght endurance was an area that needed priority as well as endurance over long fast runs.
The strenght endurance took the form of a Canova type specific endurance progression but based on time. So a fast section with a shorter steady recovery section. This wouldn't normally be necessary or indeed recomended for someone in my finishing time category, but given my weakness in that area and that next marathon was not too far over the horizon this session fit the missing piece pretty well. Covering from 18 up to 21-22k on this one as it progresses. Doing this session every second week. On alternate weeks doing a progression based on 3 min reps with 30-35s recovery (John Kellogg inspired session). For one reason or another I've ended up doing these sessions on the Treadmill. I am finding it helps me control the sessions (recovery speed as steady important in the strenght endurance ones, easy to get right on TM), run with good form, and if any sign of a niggle I can just step off the mill etc. and assess/fix. I am also doing the recovery section @ 0% grade (effort is 1% grade). This mimics downhill mechanics and allows relatively running for the steady recovery portion.
As I started the above progression I also started to progress a long steady run. This was a lesson from Madeira in that the shortcuts I attempted proved I needed the layers of paint. I already had a marathon in my fitness, so assumed body didn't need a long jog. Instead, 3 long steady runs building to 2hrs 5 mins steady (not including warmup).
With these completed I could now build the more specific marathon tempo sessions. 20k tempo and last weekend 23k tempo. 5k warm up and down for me.
Just under 6 weeks to Belfast marathon.
Tomorrows session is 5 x 12mins off 4 mins steady.
I'll update weekly as I close in now. Fingers crossed no niggles this time.
Any questions, shoot!
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Super detail in the race report and in the training - many thanks! Some of those sessions look cruel!! (15x3mins off 35sec?)
Some food for thought there myself. I must read it again more carefully and take notes :)
Are you still coached by John or just taking advice??
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Collaborating with John for my training so a bit of both I guess.
My Madeira cram was more or less my own devices and experiment.
The 3 min is kind of an LT session. Starts with 10 x 3, then 12 x 3, then 15 x 3. Last one before marathon would be a very tough 8 x 1mile. Roughly same time working as the 15 x 3 but with less rest.
You have to be strong to do the session and the 15 x 3 genuinely was not much harder to complete than the 10 x 3 but obviously the body is much stronger.
I did 23km tempo at the weekend and it helped with the pace in that one. It also helps with the strenght endurance runs (Did 12mins off 4 steady this AM continuous for 80 mins). Needed the long tempos and the 15 x 3m in the legs to be able to complete that one evenly.
We should get Kev and do a session/coffee in Park later in Spring. I was also thinking of getting a team together for next years M50 Euro marathons. Not sure where it is yet but early 2024 and planting the seed anyway!
Post edited by demfad on1 -
Training 20-26 March (For Belfast April 30)
Monday AM Run to work 13k ; PM cycle home
Tuesday AM Easy grass 65m (11) PM Easy with Strides on TM 40m (7.5) (18.5k tot)
Wednesday WU/WD Fartlek for marathon strenght endurance. 110m, 26k *
Thursday 2 x cycle commutes (recovery day) (70m easy cycling tot)
Friday TM: WU/CD 10m steady 10 x 30s hills 10m faster C 70m/13k ; PM easy 35m/6.5k (19.5k tot)
Saturday 40m easy on grass AM and PM (80m, 13.5k tot)
Sunday WU/WD 16+ miles tempo @ approx marathon effort 35.5k, 2hrs 22m **
Total running for week: 126km
* Wednesday's Fartlek was 5 x 12m with 4 mins steady recovery all continuous. I added an extra 4 min rep after last 12m to give 80m continuous run.
Paces: 5:51, 6:31 mi (16.5 kmph, 14.8 kmph). Grad (1%,0%).
The session was suggested by my coach and is based on the Canova marathon specific progression this session based on 5 x 4k off 1 k steady. So fast km replaced with 3mins, steady km = 4 mins.
(((This progressed from 5 x 10m off 4m steady last time (5 x 3k off 1 k) and 7 x 7m off 4 before that (7 x 2k off 1k).)))
This was pretty tough. I normally count (every 4th step) for focus for hard efforts on the treadmill. With my cadence a count of 50=1 min.
So counting to 600 was about 12 mins. Seemed like it took forever with the weak psychological point getting up to halfway in the 2nd last and last rep.
It takes me about 2 mins to recover on the steady rep which I run at 0% grad for a change and because it replicates downhill running. In fact on any occasion I look at something like HR it seems to rise immediately after the hard part is over before settling. Knowing this I decided to run an extra steady rep after the last hard rep to allow the body get that extra 2 mins training (recovering while running steady).
Anyway, by my calculations I ran through HM between 78-79 mins. I don't know if the TM was fully accurate and running at 0% on the steady reps is significantly easier, but still, its encouraging.
4 x 15 off 4m is the last in the profression.
** Sunday's long Run was 16mile tempo at marathon effort. Chose a less hilly course than last week (ave 3:53km/6:13).
Reckoned I's run faster and so it proved averaging 3:49.
All good except my watch was setting for 'workouts' was set to 'Indoor running' (from wednesday) so missed some data and feedback but thats the way.
Total was 35.6k/22+miles @ 4:01/6:07 so happy with the improvement. It was run at a slightly easier intensity as less hills.
18 mile tempo next week which is 4 weeks out.
Over and out.
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