The Six Nations General Banter Thread. *Read Mod Warning. Post no.5*

Riskymove

Bugnug wrote: »

This thread is nothing to do with Munster/Ulster/Connacht/Leinster bias it is about selecting what you think is the best team to represent Ireland and also with a view to developing the best squad that can go on and possibly win the world cup. We are currently ranked 4 in the world, thats an amazing achievement and a credit to the IRFU and the provinces. Remember its not about the provinces, its all about the green jersey at the end of the day.

no that's what it should be about alright, but many can't seem to do that objectively

I cant see any basis in the rugby I have seen to

a. promote Trimble to starting ahead of developing Earls with more International time; frankly if we were not playing Earls I'd have Shaggy in there like a shot

b. Reddan for O'Leary, while TOL hasn't gotten back to top form i dont think Reddan has been all that amazing for Leinster either....I am coming dangerously close to pushing Stringer (certainly off the bench) or Boss

c. dump Horan from squad altogether "because we know what he can do!"


O'Brien i can understand for some games as a start to his development

Size=everything

Riskymove wrote: »

after about 2 sentences I just knew it would be drop a smany Munster players a spossible!!....but playing Trimble instead of Earls?

How about instead of accusing me of bias you argue with my reasons outlined? I spent time typing them up solely to avoid your type of accusations which contribute nothing to discussion.

Size=everything

a. promote Trimble to starting ahead of developing Earls with more International time; frankly if we were not playing Earls I'd have Shaggy in there like a shot

Trimble is young and coming into very good form again. He should be rewarded to get his confidence back to where it was. Trimble's been better than Earls lately. As for Horgan I don't even have him in the 22 for development reasons...perhaps I'm biased against my own team as well?

b. Reddan for O'Leary, while TOL hasn't gotten back to top form i dont think Reddan has been all that amazing for Leinster either....I am coming dangerously close to pushing Stringer (certainly off the bench) or Boss

O'Leary's out of form more so than Reddan and Reddan is a regular with Sexton they are my reasons.

c. dump Horan from squad altogether "because we know what he can do!"

Healy starts because hes better. I see no point in having Horan come on with 10mins to go in a game over a prospect like Court who will possibly be around for two world cups.

O'Brien i can understand for some games as a start to his development

O.K

wixfjord

Size=everything wrote: »

How about instead of accusing me of bias you argue with my reasons outlined? I spent time typing them up solely to avoid your type of accusations which contribute nothing to discussion.

In all fairness you have a lot of previous, and I personally, would find it hard to imagine that when you were drawing up this team that bias did not come up! I can see your reasons for it, as can I see the reasons for putting in Horan, Flannery, DOC, Wallace, TOL O Gara, Earls and Stringer. But you have ommitted all of these from either the first 15 or altogether, in favour of Leinster players, which points to a bit of a pattern doesnt it? Its the same as Munster fans arguing for Ryans inclusion in the first 15 or for Heaslip to be dropped.

Riskymove

How about instead of accusing me of bias you argue with my reasons outlined? I spent time typing them up solely to avoid your type of accusations which contribute nothing to discussion.

I simply pointed out that I knew that you would be dropping a load of Munster players...which is correct, you are

you now have just 2 Munster players in the Ireland First XV

Size=everything wrote: »

Trimble is young and coming into very good form again. He should be rewarded to get his confidence back to where it was. Trimble's been better than Earls lately. As for Horgan I don't even have him in the 22 for development reasons...perhaps I'm biased against my own team as well?

I think the development of Earls should continue and get his confidence going, an extended run on the wing (i.e. in one position rather than in and out in a couple) will be of benefit

I dont see Trimble in "very good form"; he's not playing badly mind

O'Leary's out of form more so than Reddan and Reddan is a regular with Sexton they are my reasons.

reddan is less out of form than TOL ....but he is still out of form...I could not pick someone on that basis

Healy starts because hes better. I see no point in having Horan come on with 10mins to go in a game over a prospect like Court who will possibly be around for two world cups.

why have DOC, Wallace, ROG or TOL on the bench then?

Riskymove

wixfjord wrote: »

Its the same as Munster fans arguing for Ryans inclusion in the first 15 or for Heaslip to be dropped.

are people really that deluded by biais??

PhatPiggins

Healy starts because frankly he is the best loosehead in Ireland.

Not on current form he's not. Court has been far more effective in the scrums all season but as he's the only prop who can play both sides competently he'll probably stay on the bench.

thomond2006

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Not on current form he's not. Court has been far more effective in the scrums all season but as he's the only prop who can play both sides competently he'll probably stay on the bench.

I don't think outscrummaging Tony Buckley counts for much tbh. :P

You're correct though.

Amazotheamazing

Riskymove wrote: »

after about 2 sentences I just knew it would be drop a smany Munster players a spossible!!....but playing Trimble instead of Earls?

I can see the logic in playing Trimble somewhere, at his best he's a very good player, a younger, more dynamic Horgan. The big problem position is 12, neither d'Arcy or Wallace are playing that well and tbh, haven't played well in over a season.

Earls would get the call from me because he has genuine pace, something Kearney and Bowe lack but depending on who we're playing, Trimble could get into the team.

Paul Smeenus

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

I reckon that I would start this team against Italy. Hayes, Wallace & maybe ROG to come in against France.

1. Healy
2. Flannery/Fogarty
3. Ross
4. DOC
5. POC
6. Ferris
7. Jennings
8. Heaslip
9. TOL
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. Darcy
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. Fogarty/Cronin
17. Court
18. Cullen
19. Wallace
20. Reddan
21. ROG
22. Horgan

On a side note, people have been raving about Trimble based on what exactly? His one superb performance against Munster in the worst game of Rugby that I have seen in a long time? He hasn't even been able to get his game for most of this season, with Nagusa & Danielli the regular wings. He was dropped from the Ulster match day twenty two on a few occasions.

He needs to be selected and then perform, consistently for Ulster before he can make the Ireland the cut.

Trimble has been rested for a number of games the same way as any other IRFU-contracted player. He is absolutely Ulster's first choice winger.

Personally, I'd rave about him on the back of his two performances against Stade in the HEC, his two-try performance against the Scarlets in the ML and his exhilarating performance against Tonga for Ireland A. They're the stand-outs.

What did you think of these performances? They didn't convince you? Or you didn't see them?

wixfjord

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I can see the logic in playing Trimble somewhere, at his best he's a very good player, a younger, more dynamic Horgan. The big problem position is 12, neither d'Arcy or Wallace are playing that well and tbh, haven't played well in over a season.

Earls would get the call from me because he has genuine pace, something Kearney and Bowe lack but depending on who we're playing, Trimble could get into the team.

Ive actually been very surprised by Earls pace this year. He is amazingly quick and his acceleration especially is amazing. Hes got a lovely running style of a sprinter aswell. Definitely one of the, if not the quickest on the Irish squad. Theres a try he scored in his school days that Ive seen thats great to watch

Amazotheamazing

wixfjord wrote: »

Ive actually been very surprised by Earls pace this year. He is amazingly quick and his acceleration especially is amazing. Hes got a lovely running style of a sprinter aswell. Definitely one of the, if not the quickest on the Irish squad. Theres a try he scored in his school days that Ive seen thats great to watch

We've really not seeing enough from Earls this year due to the post Lions restrictions but I honestly think he's the best option to play on the wing, his reflexes and reaction times are amazing as well as his physical pace and acceleration.

Size=everything

Riskymove wrote: »

I simply pointed out that I knew that you would be dropping a load of Munster players...which is correct, you are

you now have just 2 Munster players in the Ireland First XV

That's simply the way development has gone. The new players (Healy, O'Brien, Sexton) happen to be from Leinster whilst Flannery is injured and O'Leary is playing worse than Reddan. Trimble is in better form than Earls. The only call that could go either way is Cullen and O'Callaghan.

On form, Healy is over Horan, Sexton is over O'Gara, Trimble is over Earls. For developnment reasons I have O'Brien in the squad along with Court. Despite Horgan being in better form than BOTH Trimble and Earls I have dropped him completely yet I don't see any bias calls about this?

I think the development of Earls should continue and get his confidence going, an extended run on the wing (i.e. in one position rather than in and out in a couple) will be of benefit

Trimble is in far superior form to Earls. Simple as.

I dont see Trimble in "very good form"; he's not playing badly mind

Not playing bad? Obviously you missed his two games against Stade and his excellent game against Scarletts.

reddan is less out of form than TOL ....but he is still out of form...I could not pick someone on that basis

Oh right so you pick the player playing worse then? Come off it. Reddans playing better than O'Leary. Reddan is more used to Sexton. Yet still you want to persist with O'Leary? why? Please tell me why you want to start a player in worse form than Reddan who is not as familiar with Sexton as Reddan?

why have DOC, Wallace, ROG or TOL on the bench then?

Because they can still have an impact if needed. A prop won't change a game for you in the dying minutes.

Judgement Day

Riskymove - can't agree with you on this... 'reddan is less out of form than TOL ....but he is still out of form...I could not pick someone on that basis'.
In my feeble opinion Reddan is the only choice as Ireland scrum half TOL has been in poor form since returning from injury and Peter Stringer (OK but lacks game time). Reddan started off slowly since he came back to Ireland but his performance and reading of the game especially in the Leinster away win against Llanelli Scarlets was something special.

http://rugbydump.blogspot.com/2009/12/leinster-pick-up-bonus-point-in-win.html

Riskymove

Size=everything wrote: »

Trimble is in far superior form to Earls. Simple as.

he may have had some good games recently but you need more than short-term form in picking a team for the 6N

Not playing bad? Obviously you missed his two games against Stade and his excellent game against Scarletts.

as I said he is not playing badly and has "some" very good games

I could say the same about many players but I would not necessarily say that makes them starters at international level

Oh right so you pick the player playing worse then? Come off it. Reddans playing better than O'Leary. Reddan is more used to Sexton. Yet still you want to persist with O'Leary? why? Please tell me why you want to start a player in worse form than Reddan who is not as familiar with Sexton as Reddan?

No I am saying if you are going to drop TOL I wouldnt pick someone who is just as up and down recently

perhaps I'd go for Boss or have Stringer on the bench for some change of direction if needed

Because they can still have an impact if needed. A prop won't change a game for you in the dying minutes.

But a lock will?

If we had someone who would win the game for us on the bench, I'd say the selection is wrong

we can argue over whether anyone other than a kicker fits into this generally speaking

Despite Horgan being in better form than BOTH Trimble and Earls I have dropped him completely yet I don't see any bias calls about this?

you dont have to have 100% of decisions a certain way to have a biais

On form, Healy is over Horan, Sexton is over O'Gara, Trimble is over Earls

This is the other ongoing pattern of yours, that all these Munster guys are off-form

ROG has picked up quite well recently while sexton is out

Horan is only coming back from illness

Earls has been in and out due to playing restrictions and played in different positions

This makes it hard to define "form"

That's simply the way development has gone

frankly your views on this are very contradictory

You say you are dropping Horan altogether, overlooking Shaggy and put wallace to bench for "development"

then you want to bring in Cullen? at this stage in his career that would seem to contradict "development" would it not? why not start bringing in Toner, Ryan etc on bench and drop either DOC or Cullen depending on who you are starting?

Riskymove

Judgement Day wrote: »

Riskymove - can't agree with you on this... 'reddan is less out of form than TOL ....but he is still out of form...I could not pick someone on that basis'.
In my feeble opinion Reddan is the only choice as Ireland scrum half TOL has been in poor form since returning from injury and Peter Stringer (OK but lacks game time). Reddan started off slowly since he came back to Ireland but his performance and reading of the game especially in the Leinster away win against Llanelli Scarlets was something special.

fair enough, hopefully we see ongoing improvements in form in both Reddan and Tol in the upcoming weeks to give us a better kind of quandry over who to pick than who is least out of form

Size=everything

Riskymove wrote: »

he may have had some good games recently but you need more than short-term form in picking a team for the 6N

It's picking a team for the opening game. If Trimble can continue the form he has shown recently then that will only be a positive.

as I said he is not playing badly and has "some" very good games

So essentially your saying hes playing well with some excellent games as well? Hes been playing better than Earls has hence why he should start ahead of him.

I could say the same about many players but I would not necessarily say that makes them starters at international level

Well Trimble has already been a starter at international level and is in better form than Earls so there goes that point........

No I am saying if you are going to drop TOL I wouldnt pick someone who is just as up and down recently

So you'd pick the guy thats second choice to the player thats playing worse than Reddan? What logic.

But a lock will?

Not really but I wouldn't want the likes of Toner or Ryan playing in the a full game in the 6 nations if Cullen or O'Connell got injured in the opening minutes just yet.

If we had someone who would win the game for us on the bench, I'd say the selection is wrong

I didn't say win the game, I said change the game.

you dont have to have 100% of decisions a certain way to have a biais

But because I select players who you admitted are in better form I am biased? Maybe YOU are biased.

This is the other ongoing pattern of yours, that all these Munster guys are off-form

I never said off form. I said that Healy is playing better than Horan, Sexton is playing better than O'Gara and in my opinion on form Trimble is better than Earls.
Now you've argued about Trimble but are you honestly saying its a pattern of bias to want Healy and Sexton starting?

ROG has picked up quite well recently while sexton is out

Hes played well his last 2 games but he still some way off Sexton's consistent form all season and I did state if Sexton bounces back well he should start.

Horan is only coming back from illness

....I thought you were disagreeing with me on the Horan call? All the more reason to let Horan rest and give the likes of Healy and Court a go

Earls has been in and out due to playing restrictions and played in different positions

This makes it hard to define "form"

Your making excuses. Playing restrictions? What are you talking about. I can imagine it now...

McGahan : Hey, Keith listen, um, we don't want you to play overly well today just a nice medicore game would be perfect.
Earls : O.K boss sure thing

You say you are dropping Horan altogether, overlooking Shaggy and put wallace to bench for "development"

then you want to bring in Cullen? at this stage in his career that would seem to contradict "development" would it not? why not start bringing in Toner, Ryan etc on bench and drop either DOC or Cullen depending on who you are starting?

Development doesn't just mean age. Developing a tried and tested combination of Cullen and O'Connell is equally as beneficial as putting in some young gun. Cullen's going to be around for the next WC so why not start him with O'Connell?
Its about developing a squad.

Ciaran-Irl

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Trimble has been rested for a number of games the same way as any other IRFU-contracted player. He is absolutely Ulster's first choice winger.

Personally, I'd rave about him on the back of his two performances against Stade in the HEC, his two-try performance against the Scarlets in the ML and his exhilarating performance against Tonga for Ireland A. They're the stand-outs.

What did you think of these performances? They didn't convince you? Or you didn't see them?

Have a read of the pre match report for the first of the Ulster - Stade games. Nagusa was injured, and the previously dropped Trimble took his place. Nagusa being the top try scorer for Ulster. Trimble having not made the HEC bench even until Nagusa was injured.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2009/1210/1224260421022.html

I did see the second HEC game, and most of the first, and his try in Paris was excellent, I'll give you that. He wasn't amazing in the first game against Stade by any means.

He certainly found form against Munster, but like this sudden Donncha Ryan obsession, I don't accept that we should pick players for Ireland simply based on a small handful of games of form.

Horgan / Earls have had consistent form for a long time now. Horgan in the late last HEC run and Earls going into the Lions. Both have played well this year.

Trimble needs to sustain this for far, far longer.

A good ML performance against a poor Scarlets & a good A performance against a wretchedly bad Tonga is not international standard.

Riskymove

We are going way off tangent here and i will respond to a few of your points but I'd just like to clarify some things

1. I have no issue with Munster players being dropped

2. i have no problem with Leinster players being introduced


I would pick Healy and sexton if recovered

I would put SOB on the bench to start development

I would not pick Reddan and I would not pick Cullen ahead of DOC in the Starting XV...that does not mean I think they are crap

Size=everything wrote: »

It's picking a team for the opening game.

well if your team is simply for the Italy game that's one thing and development could certainly play a bit more in it

So essentially your saying hes playing well with some excellent games as well? Hes been playing better than Earls has hence why he should start ahead of him.

imo

Earls is a faster, better runner a natural try finisher

he is the future and I believe he should be developed, especially as Fitz is out given us a chance to give him a consistent run

I have no problem with Trimble and if his chosen i am sure he'll play his best

Well Trimble has already been a starter at international level and is in better form than Earls so there goes that point........

Plenty have people have played for Ireland before and have played good games over the last month; that does not make them the best choice for Ireland's starting XV

So you'd pick the guy thats second choice to the player thats playing worse than Reddan? What logic.

I am not the Munster coach, just because TOL is first choice for him does not mean that Stringer is a lot worse a player than TOL...they are different

Not really but I wouldn't want the likes of Toner or Ryan playing in the a full game in the 6 nations if Cullen or O'Connell got injured in the opening minutes just yet.

So Toner and Ryan could not even be on the bench but you dont mind starting SOB?

Your making excuses. Playing restrictions? What are you talking about. I can imagine it now...

I mean the restrictions on Irish squad players playing time:rolleyes:

Development doesn't just mean age. Developing a tried and tested combination of Cullen and O'Connell is equally as beneficial as putting in some young gun. Cullen's going to be around for the next WC so why not start him with O'Connell?
Its about developing a squad.

thats a nice view to give you your call for Cullen as I cant see any other reason to drop DOC

imo Cullen would do just fine, both he and POC are class players and I dont think they need to be "developed" at this stage in their careers...I'd have 100% faith in Cullen if selected...i dont need to "try him out"

twinytwo

Trojan wrote: »

I wouldn't have Heaslip at captain - he's too much of a Lad at the moment (though might be maturing). Don't think he'd get the respect quite yet, especially given the other options.

POC is a great captain and leader but I'd have him on the bench as I think DOC and Cullen are our top 2 locks.

One serious weakness in POC's game is his very poor impact when taking on ball off the ruck. Look at his carries in almost any recent game. He generally takes it on way too slow and makes very little ground, often getting pushed back behind the gain line. On the upside, he rarely, if ever, loses it in contact. But this is a glaring weakness in his game in the last year or 2.

Looking forward to WC2011 at 10, if Sexton is fit for the 6N, pick Sexton - if not, pick ROG. In the same vein, Healy at 1.

I think we're back to TOL then Stringer then Reddan at 9.

seriously?.. he is one fo the best lineout men in the world and when you look at the likes of the sa game and the 6 nations the man is a machine. Obviously cullen is good and should get games with ireland but its very hard to leave paul on the bench

pab_lowe

Bugnug wrote: »

Come on Horan is one of the weakest scrummagers in the game and Hayes is not far behind. Every single year the Italians lick thier lips at the prospect of Horan and they mince him every time. Not even in the same class as Healy who is just 22 years old, he is a legend in the making and in this particular case experience is not an issue. Cian Healy went head to head with two of the best scrummaging sides in the world in tha AI's and fared pretty well for his first full test matches.

Couldn't let you away with this one. You are obviously a couch potato, you read all the reports, listen to all the meja, but have you ever actually watched a game? Do you know what you are watching when you do? Not much more to say really but your statement is really just factually incorrect to start with and wishful thinking to finish with

PhatPiggins

Well Trimble has already been a starter at international level

And that worked out really well did nt it

Bugnug

pab_lowe wrote: »

Couldn't let you away with this one. You are obviously a couch potato, you read all the reports, listen to all the meja, but have you ever actually watched a game? Do you know what you are watching when you do? Not much more to say really but your statement is really just factually incorrect to start with and wishful thinking to finish with

Played the game since I was 8 years old up until the age of 27. Avid fan with a provincal season ticket and considering coaching a youth team at my local club. "Couch potatoe" What? Why don't you make a point when you post instead of slagging people of? Why don't you tell me all about front row scrummaging? I would be really interested in your view. If you read back through this thread you will find that a majority of people rate Cian Healy as their prefered number 1 for Ireland. Name the Italian front row while you are at it???

PhatPiggins

Bugnug wrote: »

Played the game since I was 8 years old up until the age of 27. Avid fan with a provincal season ticket and considering coaching a youth team at my local club. "Couch potatoe" What? Why don't you make a point when you post instead of slagging people of? Why don't you tell me all about front row scrummaging? I would be really interested in your view. If you read back through this thread you will find that a majority of people rate Cian Healy as their prefered number 1 for Ireland. Name the Italian front row while you are at it???

Whats a "potatoe" is that some sort of tag rugby position?

Bugnug

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Well Trimble has already been a starter at international level

And that worked out really well did nt it

Yes it did when he was being played in his natural position on the wing. O'Sullivan kept trying to play him at centre when Darcy was injured, a bit like what munster are doing with Earls, and thats working out well!

Goose81

1-healy
2-Flannery
3-Hayes
4-Poc
5-Doc
6-Ferris
7-Wallace
8-Heaslip
9-Tol
10-Sexton
11-earls
12-Darcy
13-Bod (c)
14-Bowe
15-Kearney

16-Court
17-Cullen
18-Jennings
19-Cronin
20-Trimble/Shaggy
21-Rog
22-Reddan

If it were my choice TOL would be on the bench,hes not a bad player but a scrumhalf who kicks absolutely everything has no place in my team.

Paul Smeenus

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

Have a read of the pre match report for the first of the Ulster - Stade games. Nagusa was injured, and the previously dropped Trimble took his place. Nagusa being the top try scorer for Ulster. Trimble having not made the HEC bench even until Nagusa was injured.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2009/1210/1224260421022.html

I did see the second HEC game, and most of the first, and his try in Paris was excellent, I'll give you that. He wasn't amazing in the first game against Stade by any means.

He certainly found form against Munster, but like this sudden Donncha Ryan obsession, I don't accept that we should pick players for Ireland simply based on a small handful of games of form.

Horgan / Earls have had consistent form for a long time now. Horgan in the late last HEC run and Earls going into the Lions. Both have played well this year.

Trimble needs to sustain this for far, far longer.

A good ML performance against a poor Scarlets & a good A performance against a wretchedly bad Tonga is not international standard.

I understand your reasoning.

But you are honestly asking me to give more weight to Earl's form a full six months ago? Really? And Horgan's form when? Last spring? A good performance against a wretchedly bad Tonga is not international standard, true, but then it's more than Horgan managed in the same game.

Trimble is playing the best rugby out of the three, I think. He's proven that, when on form, he can cut it against teams such as South Africa. When on form. Which he is now.

I see you would bring ROG in for the tougher teams in the Six Nations. I would argue he has been in horrible form for a significant period, with a recent upturn in performances. Why is his selection not problematic? He was poor at the start of this season. Does he not have to display good form for "far, far longer" than a handful of games? Interesting. (Just to be clear, I'm trying to understand your criteria. And why they seem to be so flexible.)

anonymous_joe

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Well Trimble has already been a starter at international level

And that worked out really well did nt it

South Africa? ^^

22 Irish appearances, and 8 tries. According to Wikipedia anyway.

That works out at 1 in 3.

Same as:

BOD
Horgan
Geordan Murphy

Three of the best Irish backs ever.

Trimble's also only 25. Same age as Bowe.

Stev_o

Trimbles defence is not up to international level, nor is his kicking or passing. Earls is miles ahead of him on national selection. The only other winger that is in direct competetion to Earls for the 6N is Horgan and it's a very close race (one which i would like see to youth and a big prospect prevail over a great a servant).

Risteard

Bugnug wrote: »

Yes it did when he was being played in his natural position on the wing. O'Sullivan kept trying to play him at centre when Darcy was injured, a bit like what munster are doing with Earls, and thats working out well!

Wasn't he on the wing that time in Paris when he came off it at the time of a scrum and France scored a try?