The Six Nations General Banter Thread. *Read Mod Warning. Post no.5*

Bugnug

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Healy got destroyed in the scrums last November. He's a massive prospect, but apply your own standards.

The entire Irish scrum suffered in the AIs and Marcus Horan would have made no difference. Healy was oustanding in loose play and in the amount of work he got through. Different leauge this kid.

Paul Smeenus

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

I'm not basing anything on Earls or Horgan's form 6 months ago. I'm saying they have had sustained good form since last season. They have played well this year, and they have been playing well since at least late last year. Horgan kept Rob Kearney out of the Leinster team until Luke Fitzgerald got injured. Earls has pushed JdV out of the Munster team and played fantastic rugby in the autumn for Ireland.

Your comment about ROG is based on this quote from me I assume?, "I reckon that I would start this team against Italy. Hayes, Wallace & maybe ROG to come in against France."?

"Maybe ROG"?

Yeah, I didn't elaborate beyond that, but my thinking is that we don't currently know how Sexton will play now that he is back from injury. If he gets back his pre injury form, then the Ireland jersey is his. If he is slow to get back to his best, ROG looks like he is playing well again and "MAYBE" would pip Sexton for the away France game. It is unknown, but Kidney has made it very clear that he intends to rotate between the two. So long as both are in good form, I respect that judgement.

Ross needs game time, but as he has been a penalty magnet so far this year for us in Leinster, I don't think he should start against France. I would play Ross against Italy as he is a superior scrummager to Hayes.

Wallace is playing outstanding rugby this year, but we do need to see alternatives for the 7 position given Wallace's age leading up to the World cup. I would start Jennings against Italy and then bring Wallace back in afterwards.

Well, fair enough. I know you're not just making spurious arguments. I disagree and you're wrong, but you've clearly thought about it.

As I said, I think Trimble is playing the best out of the three, and I am less concerned than you about long runs of good form. I don't think pushing JdV out of the Munster side was that amazing, considering how JdV actually played (notwithstanding his reputation). And I disagree that his Ireland autumn international performanes were "fantastic". Don't agree with that at all. That's markedly overstating it, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm also surprised by Jennings ahead of SOB, actually. No competitive rugby for three months, then straight in? We don't yet know what form he will return in.

I think we're really stuck if our TH options are Hayes or Ross. (And they are, it seems.) Do you think having Ross would be wise in the same front row as Healy? Very little experience there. And what happens to the lineout? (Not such an issue against Italy, granted.)

Risteard

Bugnug wrote: »

The entire Irish scrum suffered in the AIs and Marcus Horan would have made no difference. Healy was oustanding in loose play and in the amount of work he got through. Different leauge this kid.

But it doesn't matter if Horan would have made a difference. We're examining Healy's ability not Horan's.

Size=everything

Riskymove wrote: »

1. I have no issue with Munster players being dropped

2. i have no problem with Leinster players being introduced

Yet you have issue when I do it.

I would pick Healy and sexton if recovered

Yet you complain about me dropping Horan and O'Gara for them.

I would not pick Reddan and I would not pick Cullen ahead of DOC in the Starting XV...that does not mean I think they are crap

Never said you did. Though I do find it baffling that you wouldn't start a player (Reddan) who you admitted was in better form.

Earls is a faster, better runner a natural try finisher

And is not in better form than Trimble who is a better tackler, stronger and who has better hands.

he is the future and I believe he should be developed, especially as Fitz is out given us a chance to give him a consistent run

Trimbles 25...

Plenty have people have played for Ireland before and have played good games over the last month; that does not make them the best choice for Ireland's starting XV

Did I say that? You said there are lots of people who have had good games this season that arent worthy of starting for Ireland. I just stated he already has started for Ireland and has proven against the likes of South Africa, Australia and New Zealand that when in form hes well up to standard. Selecting Trimble isnt as risky as selecting some unknown quantity that you were trying to make him out to be. Trimble is a proven international who is in better form than Earls and is only 2 years older. Start him.

I am not the Munster coach, just because TOL is first choice for him does not mean that Stringer is a lot worse a player than TOL...they are different

I'm going to assume both Kidney and McGahan know more about whose a better scrumhalf than you do.

So Toner and Ryan could not even be on the bench but you dont mind starting SOB?

O'Brien is a regular for Leinster and played a near full game against South Africa and held his own. Toner and Ryan are not even regulars for their province.

I mean the restrictions on Irish squad players playing time:rolleyes:

Poor victimised Earls. You mean those same restrictions that EVERY irish player has to deal with?

imo Cullen would do just fine, both he and POC are class players and I dont think they need to be "developed" at this stage in their careers...I'd have 100% faith in Cullen if selected...i dont need to "try him out"

I'm talking about the pairing obviously.

PhatPiggins

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Well, fair enough. I know you're not just making spurious arguments. I disagree and you're wrong, but you've clearly thought about it.

As I said, I think Trimble is playing the best out of the three, and I am less concerned than you about long runs of good form. I don't think pushing JdV out of the Munster side was that amazing, considering how JdV actually played (notwithstanding his reputation). And I disagree that his Ireland autumn international performanes were "fantastic". Don't agree with that at all. That's markedly overstating it, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm also surprised by Jennings ahead of SOB, actually. No competitive rugby for three months, then straight in? We don't yet know what form he will return in.

I think we're really stuck if our TH options are Hayes or Ross. (And they are, it seems.) Do you think having Ross would be wise in the same front row as Healy? Very little experience there. And what happens to the lineout? (Not such an issue against Italy, granted.)

I think the aarguement for Jennings with Wallace is based on Wallace and O Brien being very similar players. Where as Jennings,in theory, can offer that classic ground hog seven that we have'nt had since Gleeson in his pomp.

I'd just like to see Ross get some game time at leinster to be honest.

Size=everything

Risteard wrote: »

Wasn't he on the wing that time in Paris when he came off it at the time of a scrum and France scored a try?

I was actually at that game. Leamy told him to go into the backline. I don't know if theres any videos around but if someone can find one at the scrum Leamy points to Trimble to go into the main line.

Riskymove

Risteard wrote: »

But it doesn't matter if Horan would have made a difference. We're examining Healy's ability not Horan's.

I am afraid that is the problem in some of these discussions

there's this OTT reaction.....if you say healy had a bad game in the scrum, you are not saying he is crap, we are discussin strengths and weakenesses of players

just going on about "living legends" and "X is the best Number 8/prop/Fullback in the WORLD!!!!!" etc doesn't do much for discussion

if you say X didn't have a good game..."well Y wouldn't have done better" isn't much of a response.

Size=everything

Bugnug wrote: »

What this big prospect business and hype about Earls. Can everbody take a step back here and look at the hard facts. Earls is a fine provincial rugby player but he has failed by a country mile to live up to international standards (and lets not mention the lions tour), his positional play is weak at best, his defence is suspect and he has two left feet. Earls will not be part of the Ireland set up come the world cup.

I do agree that unfortunately Earls has not lived up to the hype. There were those here who claimed he was going to be better than O'Driscoll!
Just fyi Fitzgerald is the same age as Earls yet isnt even raved about half as much as an exciting prospect.

Size=everything

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I think the aarguement for Jennings with Wallace is based on Wallace and O Brien being very similar players. Where as Jennings,in theory, can offer that classic ground hog seven that we have'nt had since Gleeson in his pomp.

I'd just like to see Ross get some game time at leinster to be honest.

O'Brien is quite the ground hog as well imo.

Size=everything

Bugnug wrote: »

The entire Irish scrum suffered in the AIs and Marcus Horan would have made no difference. Healy was oustanding in loose play and in the amount of work he got through. Different leauge this kid.

Also I'd like to add to BugNugs point that despite RTE's analysis and the subsequent band wagon being jumped on by everyone in the media and on these very forums the scrums WERE NOT wheeling on Healy's for the majority of the penalties. Hook commented about his poor back positioning but even then it was not wheeling on his side. Just seems like an easy scapegoat for a much larger problem.


Why is this overlooked?

Amazotheamazing

Size=everything wrote: »

I do agree that unfortunately Earls has not lived up to the hype. There were those here who claimed he was going to be better than O'Driscoll!
Just fyi Fitzgerald is the same age as Earls yet isnt even raved about half as much as an exciting prospect.

A Lions tour in his first full season as pro, straight into the Irish squad and a handful of tries. What did you expect of him in his first season?

Size=everything

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Yet you pump up Healy every day oblivious of his short comings.

How would you score him on internatioanl performances to date?

6 maybe 6.5 at best

In the loose I'd give him a 10/10. His huge break against Australia noticably turned the match back in Ireland's favour it was inspiring. At scrum time he was scrummaging against 2 of the best scrums in the world and quess what it didn't wheel on his side.


I think you are being extremely harsh on what is essentially a 22 year old prop on his debut against two of the best countries in the world

Riskymove

Size=everything wrote: »

Yet you have issue when I do it.

Yet you complain about me dropping Horan and O'Gara for them.

Sigh......I did not do any of these things

Never said you did. Though I do find it baffling that you wouldn't start a player (Reddan) who you admitted was in better form.

I admitted Reddan was "less off-form" than TOL..hardly the same as admitting wallace was "a better player" than SOB but dropping him anyway

my point was if both are off-form I might look elsewhere...but if both are off-form it just as likely comes down to the style of play required

Did I say that?

you put forward that he had previously started for Ireland as a reason to select ....thats simply not enough for me

I'm going to assume both Kidney and McGahan know more about whose a better scrumhalf than you do.

Both use stringer strategically off the bench to bring a different direction to gameplay

Poor victimised Earls. You mean those same restrictions that EVERY irish player has to deal with?

ah no, not ALL irish players

I'm talking about the pairing obviously.

and so am I.....I do not need to try it, I have faith that Cullen and POC would work, just as Cullen and DOC would, all three are top class

I just think POC and DOC is best choice

2040

I think that if that one Lions game against the Royal XV, or whatever they were called, was deleted from memory alot of peoples opinions on Earls would be without foundation. Not that they have foundation anyway. Poor defence? Bad hands? Poor kicker? He's so talented in attack that other aspects of his game are considered to be weak just because they're not on a par with his attacking prowess. It's an insane logic that seems to be doing the rounds on this forum.

He has immense talent and even greater potential that he has yet to fulfil. Talent scouts from all over Britain and Ireland had their eyes on him years ago.

He's more than proved himself at ML level and HC level. He's done as well as he could have done at international level despite lack of opportunity and after only one season of pro rugby had a shaky start to a Lions tour, but still had some moments of magic.

I don't think he'll be forgotten about soon.

Hi, my name's Keith. **** you Cian.

Size=everything

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

A Lions tour in his first full season as pro, straight into the Irish squad and a handful of tries. What did you expect of him in his first season?

A poor Lions tour. Tries mostly against sides like Fiji and Canada. Into the Irish 22 in 2009. Not his first season as pro either he has been pro since 2006

Riskymove

Size=everything wrote: »

Just fyi Fitzgerald is the same age as Earls yet isnt even raved about half as much as an exciting prospect.

I think you'll find Fitzgerald was raved over, at the time he came to prominence...I was t his first game and was delighted to see such a young player appear on the scene, .although there was also some concerns over sioze, defensive ability etc.....sound familiar?

Earls has only really arrived over the last year

Riskymove

Size=everything wrote: »

Tries mostly against sides like Fiji and Canada.

given he has only played a few games its a bit harsh to judge who he scores tries against

see details of Trimbles exploits on previous pages


EDIT: Dont forget some of the opinions about Bowe's future a couple of years ago

Stev_o

Bugnug wrote: »

What this big prospect business and hype about Earls. Can everbody take a step back here and look at the hard facts. Earls is a fine provincial rugby player but he has failed by a country mile to live up to international standards (and lets not mention the lions tour), his positional play is weak at best, his defence is suspect and he has two left feet. Earls will not be part of the Ireland set up come the world cup.

He's had 4 caps for Ireland and scored 3 times.....how exactly is that failing at international level? He'll be starting or benching coming the next World Cup.

Amazotheamazing

Size=everything wrote: »

A poor Lions tour. Tries mostly against sides like Fiji and Canada. Into the Irish 22 in 2009. Not his first season as pro either he has been pro since 2006

It wasn't a great Lions tour, but it wasn't a disaster either.

Size=everything

Riskymove wrote: »

Sigh......I did not do any of these things

*Cough*

On form, Healy is over Horan, Sexton is over O'Gara, Trimble is over Earls

Your response...

This is the other ongoing pattern of yours, that all these Munster guys are off-form

I admitted Reddan was "less off-form" than TOL..hardly the same as admitting wallace was "a better player" than SOB but dropping him anyway

Less off form is a round about way of saying in better form. Stop trying to be evasive. Reddan is playing better than O'Leary and knows Sexton better.

my point was if both are off-form I might look elsewhere...but if both are off-form it just as likely comes down to the style of play required

Yet you haven't complained about anyone who put O'Leary in their 15. But when I put a player who you have admitted is playing better than O'Leary theres an issue of bias??

you put forward that he had previously started for Ireland as a reason to select ....thats simply not enough for me

No I put forward that HE IS IN BETTER FORM as a reason to start him and also stated he has started for Ireland before.

Both use stringer strategically off the bench to bring a different direction to gameplay

To use your own very words,

If he was good enough to win the game he would be starting.

ah no, not ALL irish players

All players contending for a spot on the squad. Stop making excuses for Earls.

and so am I.....I do not need to try it, I have faith that Cullen and POC would work, just as Cullen and DOC would, all three are top class

Just like Wyn-Jones and POC worked out beautifully eh

Size=everything

Stev_o wrote: »

He's had 4 caps for Ireland and scored 3 times.....how exactly is that failing at international level? He'll be starting or benching coming the next World Cup.

3 tries against Fiji.

Can't see him starting ahead of :

Fitzgerald or Bowe on the wing.

O'Driscoll in the centre

or Kearney at Full back

Amazotheamazing

Size=everything wrote: »

3 tries against Fiji.

Can't see him starting ahead of :

Fitzgerald or Bowe on the wing.

O'Driscoll in the centre

or Kearney at Full back

You do realise Fitz is injured? It's debatable whether Fitz will even get his Leinster place back so I don't think anything is set really wrt the RWC next year.

Size=everything

Riskymove wrote: »

given he has only played a few games its a bit harsh to judge who he scores tries against

see details of Trimbles exploits on previous pages


EDIT: Dont forget some of the opinions about Bowe's future a couple of years ago

You mean his exploits against the likes of South Africa, Australia and New Zealand?

Bowe was only disregarded by Hook.

I'm not saying Earls won't be good I just don't feel he is (or ever will be) good enough to overtake the likes of Kearney, Bowe, Fitzgerald or O'Driscoll.

Stev_o

Size=everything wrote: »

3 tries against Fiji.

Can't see him starting ahead of :

Fitzgerald or Bowe on the wing.

O'Driscoll in the centre

or Kearney at Full back

We'v two years of the rugby season left are you predicting that none of the those players will loose form or get injured? If you had of told me in 2007 that Shane Horgan would be kicked out of the Irish Team by 2008 AI i would of laughed like everyone else.

EDIT: As opposed to Fitzgeralds 2 tries against Italy?

Amazotheamazing

Size=everything wrote: »

You mean his exploits against the likes of South Africa, Australia and New Zealand?

Bowe was only disregarded by Hook.

I'm not saying Earls won't be good I just don't feel he is (or ever will be) good enough to overtake the likes of Kearney, Bowe, Fitzgerald or O'Driscoll.

You can't compare anyone to BOD, he's a once off.

I'm pretty sure Earls will be an international for a long time though.

Btw, you seem to have forgotten Bowe was dropped by EOS (not Hook) for the last RWC. Think he didn't even make the 30 man squad, Carney was ahead of him.

Riskymove

Size=everything wrote: »

*Cough*

you are just going around in circles ...you wont listen

my original point was about your biais in making calls, you inevitably go against the Munster player..its not about an individual selection and I dont have any problem with arguing over a

your idea to drop DOC for Cullen to develop a pairing with POC is an example, its ridiculous to me and goes against all your other arguments about form and ability etc

If I was to suggest dropping D'Arcy to play earles with BOD at centre to "develop a pairing" I know what your reaction would be....(or god help us if I suggested dropping BOD for Earles for the same reason!!)


you should pick the best team to win

I'd have Healy and Sexton (if he has recovered ok) in my own team but I would not pick Reddan.....i would not dump Horan out of the 6N squad...and I would have SOB on the bench not starting

and those opinions have nothing to do with who they play for

All players contending for a spot on the squad

on a seperate note, can anyone confirm who exactly is covered by the restrictions, is it everyone in a particular Irish squad?

danthefan

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

You can't compare anyone to BOD, he's a once off.

I'm pretty sure Earls will be an international for a long time though.

Btw, you seem to have forgotten Bowe was dropped by EOS (not Hook) for the last RWC. Think he didn't even make the 30 man squad, Carney was ahead of him.

I wouldn't judge anything on the RWC squad. Heaslip, Kearney, Fitz and Bowe all went from not being at the RWC to being Grand Slam winners and test Lions. Think it says more about EOS than the players.

Riskymove

Size=everything wrote: »

You mean his exploits against the likes of South Africa, Australia and New Zealand?

in "friendlies"

1 try in 13 6N matches

Bowe was only disregarded by Hook.

no way, he was pillorred by many (including on boards)

I'm not saying Earls won't be good I just don't feel he is (or ever will be) good enough to overtake the likes of Kearney, Bowe, Fitzgerald or O'Driscoll.

O'Driscoll?????? come on we can hardly hold everyone up to that standard

dont forget things change fast, kearney was not even the dead-cert starting Full-back before last year's 6N

Stev_o

danthefan wrote: »

I wouldn't judge anything on the RWC squad. Heaslip, Kearney, Fitz and Bowe all went from not being at the RWC to being Grand Slam winners and test Lions. Think it says more about EOS than the players.

The only person hard pressed not to go was Heaslip as we had no specialist 8 at the time bar Leamy who most people agree isn't really one. He impressed everyone i think against Scotland at 8 behind a dire scrum but lets not forget that a certain Stephen Ferris was at 7 who everyone thought was useless/gym monkey.

Bowe really didn't come into his own till the start of the ML/HC after the World Cup and no Kearney really didnt show much in Argentina really to warrant a place in the squad bear in mind aswell how young himself and Fitz were you have to remember that EOS was picking a squad to win the RWC (albeit bludgeon to death everyone else ) not using it as a squad development tool.

Amazotheamazing

danthefan wrote: »

I wouldn't judge anything on the RWC squad. Heaslip, Kearney, Fitz and Bowe all went from not being at the RWC to being Grand Slam winners and test Lions. Think it says more about EOS than the players.

Indeed, just pointing out it wasn't solely Hook who didn't rate Bowe.

Tbf, Bowe is a much improved player, and at the time Trimble was playing well.