The Six Nations General Banter Thread. *Read Mod Warning. Post no.5*

Bugnug

Bugnug wrote: »

Cian Healy went head to head with two of the best scrummaging sides in the world in tha AI's and fared pretty well for his first full test matches.

Oh come on, take off the blinkers. He was shown up for what he is: a newbie. He probably will be very good in the future but he clearly came off second best in the November tests.

Bugnug

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

Cullen is the Captain of the current European champions and bested POC & DOC in both their last meetings. He is not just international standard, but would walk into a starting place in any side bar Ireland & South Africa. He was Leicester's Captain before he left them.

Donncha Ryan is a bench player for Munster. 4th choice lock and 6th choice back row. Has done nothing to suggest he is International standard.

This kind of blinkard opinion wrecks these threads.

I totally agree. And anytime Cullen has lined out against O Callaghan he has been by far the better player. DOC keeps his position over Cullen due to his pairing with POC at munster.

Bugnug

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh come on, take off the blinkers. He was shown up for what he is: a newbie. He probably will be very good in the future but he clearly came off second best in the November tests.

Watch this space.

Amazotheamazing

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

Cullen is the Captain of the current European champions and bested POC & DOC in both their last meetings. He is not just international standard, but would walk into a starting place in any side bar Ireland & South Africa. He was Leicester's Captain before he left them.

Donncha Ryan is a bench player for Munster. 4th choice lock and 6th choice back row. Has done nothing to suggest he is International standard.

This kind of blinkard opinion wrecks these threads.

He was Leicester's midweek captain, the guy (like MOD) called on to captain when the top players were away. He gives 100%, so does Casey, so does MOD, but none are good enough for International rugby. Maybe Ryan isn't either, but he's more versatile and younger.

If cullen was leicester's captain, why was he dropped to the bench for their knock-out HEC matches? Because he wasn't good enough to play when the real players were fit again.

twinytwo

Bugnug wrote: »

Hey there the 6 nations is looming and I thought Id get a bit of a debate going over a couple of things.

1. Who should pull on the No10 jersey and why?
2. Should the captaincy reside with BOD this year?
3. Anybody fancy picking the 15 they think will start the championship and the 15 they'd like to see?

1. Sexton is injured but who ever is playing the better rugby dosent matter if its Rog or Sexton.

2. BOD is the only player that should be captain unless he decides not to be. He has been captain sine 03? for a reason.. if not him then the next obvious selection is O Connell

3.
Healy
?
Hayes
DOC
POC
Ferris
Wallace
Heaslip
O'leary with stringer getting some game time... taking on france in paris may require his quick ball.
O'gara/sexton
earls
darcy
drico
bowe
kearney

Bugnug

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

He was Leicester's midweek captain, the guy (like MOD) called on to captain when the top players were away. He gives 100%, so does Casey, so does MOD, but none are good enough for International rugby. Maybe Ryan isn't either, but he's more versatile and younger.

If cullen was leicester's captain, why was he dropped to the bench for their knock-out HEC matches? Because he wasn't good enough to play when the real players were fit again.

Donnacha Ryan might be versatile but he will never play for Ireland when we are spoiled with some of the best backrow players in the world. He is not nearly in the same class as Cullen. Cullen captained Leinster to a Heineken cup last season, he has an outstanding rugby brain and he is a leader, and he is just being held out by DOc but I have a feeling that might change thie spring.

I am not sure what you are saying about Cullen at Leinster? Can somebody quantify this I find it hard to believe as I thought he was an integral part of the team?

Risteard

Bugnug wrote: »

If I am not mistaking a few people said the same thing about a certain BOD when he took over the Irish captaincy at the age of 23. Paul O Connel showed during the lions tour that he is not an international captain, it takes from his game. Heaslip has a brilliant rugby brain in the same mould as Anthony Foley.

Where is this myth coming from?

Players came out and said he was a great captain, specifically Martyn Williams who said 'Paul has been absolutely immense on this tour and is the best captain I have ever worked with.'

EDIT: And considering he was in a Lions team captained by Martin Johnson, I think that's quite a compliment.

Amazotheamazing

Bugnug wrote: »

Donnacha Ryan might be versatile but he will never play for Ireland when we are spoiled with some of the best backrow players in the world. He is not nearly in the same class as Cullen. Cullen captained Leinster to a Heineken cup last season, he has an outstanding rugby brain and he is a leader, and he is just being held out by DOc but I have a feeling that might change thie spring.

I am not sure what you are saying about Cullen at Leinster? Can somebody quantify this I find it hard to believe as I thought he was an integral part of the team?

Ryan already played for Ireland.

You don't pick your subs for their leadership ability. DOC is actually one of the key men for Ireland, check any stats, DOC is always there doing the graft. For Cullen to play for Ireland, POC would have to be dropped, not DOC.

Cullen played in the same role for Leicester that Mick O'Driscoll does for Munster, a guy who sits on the bench when the top players are around and who provides leadership in their absence. That's not to insult either of them, I respect both of them but wouldn't have either playing for Ireland.

Amazotheamazing

Risteard wrote: »

Where is this myth coming from?

Players came out and said he was a great captain, specifically Martyn Williams who said 'Paul has been absolutely immense on this tour and is the best captain I have ever worked with.'

EDIT: And considering he was in a Lions team captained by Martin Johnson, I think that's quite a compliment.

McGeehan said he was one of the best Lions captains in his experience as both a player and manager. I don't think either Williams or McGeehan know anything about rugby though...

That being said, POC would only be an interim captain due to his age, so maybe Heaslip would get the nod, or O'Leary.

Bugnug

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Ryan already played for Ireland.

You don't pick your subs for their leadership ability. DOC is actually one of the key men for Ireland, check any stats, DOC is always there doing the graft. For Cullen to play for Ireland, POC would have to be dropped, not DOC.

Cullen played in the same role for Leicester that Mick O'Driscoll does for Munster, a guy who sits on the bench when the top players are around and who provides leadership in their absence. That's not to insult either of them, I respect both of them but wouldn't have either playing for Ireland.

Who would you have as third choice second row?

Amazotheamazing

Bugnug wrote: »

Who would you have as third choice second row?

If everyone's fit, Ryan for reasons stated above.

Bugnug

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

McGeehan said he was one of the best Lions captains in his experience as both a player and manager. I don't think either Williams or McGeehan know anything about rugby though...

That being said, POC would only be an interim captain due to his age, so maybe Heaslip would get the nod, or O'Leary.

POC is not of International captaincy standard because the most important asset any rugby captain must have is a razor sharp ability to read the game, prempt the oposition and be able to adapt accordingly. POC cannot do this, not an insult he just doesnt have that ability. Heaslip in my opion is the only player on the first 15 bar BOD who has this special ability that all great captains have. Take a look back over the greats from around the world some of them weren't even the best in their positions.

wixfjord

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

McGeehan said he was one of the best Lions captains in his experience as both a player and manager. I don't think either Williams or McGeehan know anything about rugby though...

That being said, POC would only be an interim captain due to his age, so maybe Heaslip would get the nod, or O'Leary.

Your telling me honestly now, that you would have Donnacha Ryan, a player who is 3rd or 4th choice for Munster and even further down the pecking list in the back row, ahead of Leo Cullen, who has captained a Heineken Cup winning team, and has been recognised as an immense lineout caller!! Would he be there as a backrow option aswell as a second row option? Is that your reason behind it?


On a related note the bias clouding this forum has gone into overdrive lately. Come on lads, I mean im no angel but Ill give credit where its due to another team. You dont win a Heineken cup for Munster or Leinster by winning an argument of boards!!

thehighground

Bugnug wrote: »

POC is not of International captaincy standard because the most important asset any rugby captain must have is a razor sharp ability to read the game, prempt the oposition and be able to adapt accordingly. POC cannot do this, not an insult he just doesnt have that ability. Heaslip in my opion is the only player on the first 15 bar BOD who has this special ability that all great captains have. Take a look back over the greats from around the world some of them weren't even the best in their positions.

Typical ... this astounding leadership ability of BOD & Heislip isn't even recognised in their hometown of Leinster

wixfjord

Bugnug wrote: »

POC is not of International captaincy standard because the most important asset any rugby captain must have is a razor sharp ability to read the game, prempt the oposition and be able to adapt accordingly. POC cannot do this, not an insult he just doesnt have that ability. Heaslip in my opion is the only player on the first 15 bar BOD who has this special ability that all great captains have. Take a look back over the greats from around the world some of them weren't even the best in their positions.

O Connell is a great captain, who didnt have a great Lions, get a grip.
Also on this, I was thinking about the next Leinster captain should be the other day, and Heaslip cropped up. I just dont see it at all. He hasnt got the cool head required and doesnt strike me as a great leader yet anyway.

By the way, I think Ferris, O Gara and DOC (who captained a Lions team) would have something to say about the above.

Come on lads a bit of perspective lets not let this thread go the way so many have gone. Its still a month away from the 6N!

wixfjord

thehighground wrote: »

Typical ... this astounding leadership ability of BOD & Heislip isn't even recognised in their hometown of Leinster

The astounding leadership of BOD is undoubetly. Do you think not?? :pac:

thehighground

wixfjord wrote: »

The astounding leadership of BOD is undoubetly. Do you think not?? :pac:

Well - Leinster did better under Leo's captaincy. (BOD hardly played the year Leinster won the Magners).

Bugnug

thehighground wrote: »

Typical ... this astounding leadership ability of BOD & Heislip isn't even recognised in their hometown of Leinster

Loe Cullen doesn't play for Ireland and Brian O Driscoll gave up the captaincy last year to focus on his game. Heaslip is 24 and hes the future.

wixfjord

thehighground wrote: »

Well - Leinster did better under Leo's captaincy. (BOD hardly played the year Leinster won the Magners).

Id hardly say its not recognised, considering the performances hes put in for the Lions Ireland and Leinster in the last number of years! Massive hits, turning over ball, creating and scoring very important tries and scoring drop goals. Being a leader is nothing to do with who has a (c) after their name on the match programme.

Risteard

Bugnug wrote: »

POC is not of International captaincy standard because the most important asset any rugby captain must have is a razor sharp ability to read the game, prempt the oposition and be able to adapt accordingly. POC cannot do this, not an insult he just doesnt have that ability. Heaslip in my opion is the only player on the first 15 bar BOD who has this special ability that all great captains have. Take a look back over the greats from around the world some of them weren't even the best in their positions.

Well he doesn't do to badly when he's reading the opposition lineouts and stealing their ball. That would suggest that he has a 'rugby brain.'

Plus I don't know why Heaslip seems to be considered such a great captain. Has he even captained Leinster? I'm not saying he can't or won't be a good captain but I don't see what makes him stand out apart from the obvious of being a great player.

EDIT:

wixfjord wrote: »

Id hardly say its not recognised, considering the performances hes put in for the Lions Ireland and Leinster in the last number of years! Massive hits, turning over ball, creating and scoring very important tries and scoring drop goals. Being a leader is nothing to do with who has a (c) after their name on the match programme.

Exactly it. Hypothetically if POC was made captain of Ireland over BOD would that mean that BOD would suddenly drop off the radar with regard to his opinions on things? I doubt it. There's so many leaders throughout this team, captain is just a formality IMO. The one who talks to the ref. I'm sure many senior players' opinions are taken into account when making decision and not just BOD's.

Bugnug

Risteard wrote: »

Well he doesn't do to badly when he's reading the opposition lineouts and stealing their ball. That would suggest that he has a 'rugby brain.'

Plus I don't know why Heaslip seems to be considered such a great captain. Has he even captained Leinster? I'm not saying he can't or won't be a good captain but I don't see what makes him stand out apart from the obvious of being a great player.

If Declan Kidney thought that Paul O Connel was captain material then he would have made him captain of Munster and Ireland when the posts were up for the taking but the most elite coach we have ever produced choose to do neither. Maybe he doesnt know what hes doing:rolleyes:

twinytwo

Bugnug wrote: »

If Declan Kidney thought that Paul O Connel was captain material then he would have made him captain of Munster and Ireland when the posts were up for the taking but the most elite coach we have ever produced choose to do neither. Maybe he doesnt know what hes doing:rolleyes:

kidney lets the players choose the captain.. when he took over the ireland job he asked the senior players who they wanted as captain and poc' rog and all the others wanted drico to remain captain. he has said this himself on more than one occasion

twinytwo

thehighground wrote: »

Well - Leinster did better under Leo's captaincy. (BOD hardly played the year Leinster won the Magners).

i think that would have more to do with leinster getting their **** togther and going from ml to hec champs rather than cullen being cap

Risteard

Wasn't he captain of Munster when they won the Heineken Cup under Deccie?

Also the issue isn't 'Paul O'Connell is a greater captain than Brian O'Driscoll.'

I was refuting the fact that you claimed that POC isn't up to captaining at international level despite the fact that a senior player on the Lions tour labeled him the best captain he'd played under.

It is possible for a team to have two or maybe even more players capable of captaining the team. There can only be one captain though so as one inevitably gets the nod over another, it doesn't mean the other player is a bad captain.

Bugnug

Risteard wrote: »

Wasn't he captain of Munster when they won the Heineken Cup under Deccie?

Also the issue isn't 'Paul O'Connell is a greater captain than Brian O'Driscoll.'

I was refuting the fact that you claimed that POC isn't up to captaining at international level despite the fact that a senior player on the Lions tour labeled him the best captain he'd played under.

It is possible for a team to have two or maybe even more players capable of captaining the team. There can only be one captain though so as one inevitably gets the nod over another, it doesn't mean the other player is a bad captain.

Infact i think youre right about the heineken cup captaincy. This thread started well but hey thats the way the cookie crumbles.

Read a good one today, "knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad".

Risteard

Bugnug wrote: »

Infact i think youre right about the heineken cup captaincy. This thread started well but hey thats the way the cookie crumbles.

Read a good one today, "knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad".

Well I don't think it's gone badly either.

And yes those are truly the words of a wise man.;)

Podge_irl

wixfjord wrote: »

Also on this, I was thinking about the next Leinster captain should be the other day, and Heaslip cropped up. I just dont see it at all. He hasnt got the cool head required and doesnt strike me as a great leader yet anyway.

Hasn't got a cool head? I don't think I've ever seen him lose his cool on a rugby pitch. I'd be shocked if he's not well up there when it comes time to replace Cullen and I'd be surprised if he doesn't captain Ireland at some point (whether as permanent captain or as stand-in). He has an excellent rugby brain.

As regards captain for the moment, I honestly don't think it matters but BOD will remain captain as long as he wants to I think. Cullen is a better captain in my view, and the best in Ireland actually, but as pointed out, you don't pick your bench lock on his captaining ability. I think Cullen deserves the spot on merit but I can see an argument for Ryan. The argument for Ryan would be stronger if he was getting more game time for Munster though.

thehighground

Bugnug wrote: »

Loe Cullen doesn't play for Ireland and Brian O Driscoll gave up the captaincy last year to focus on his game. Heaslip is 24 and hes the future.

Leo Cullen does play for Ireland (didn't he start against Figi?). Doesnt the fact that BOD resigned as club captain to concentrate on his game say something to you? (like he finds it onerous/it doesn't come easy to him).

Heaslip could well be the future ... but Simon Show, POC, DOC & ROG all got to captain a Lions team before him, not to mention that last year there seems to be about 4 named vice captains in Leinster and he isn't one of them (Whits, Jennings were last year).

Personally think that Heaslip is a very good player, but seems to me to be far too laid back. Probably comes from sharing a dressing room with Mal.

Bugnug

thehighground wrote: »

Leo Cullen does play for Ireland (didn't he start against Figi?). Doesnt the fact that BOD resigned as club captain to concentrate on his game say something to you? (like he finds it onerous/it doesn't come easy to him).

Heaslip could well be the future ... but Simon Show, POC, DOC & ROG all got to captain a Lions team before him, not to mention that last year there seems to be about 4 named vice captains in Leinster and he isn't one of them (Whits, Jennings were last year).

Personally think that Heaslip is a very good player, but seems to me to be far too laid back. Probably comes from sharing a dressing room with Mal.

Yea your probably right. That whole thing of captaining Ireland to their first grand slam in 61 years looked pretty "onerous" on him, while almost singlehandly beating England. DOC and ROG captained the lions in nothing games, so dont give me that. Did you call the best number 8 in world rugby "laid back" emmm.

sickpuppy

Bugnug wrote: »

Yea your probably right. That whole thing of captaining Ireland to their first grand slam in 61 years looked pretty "onerous" on him, while almost singlehandly beating England. DOC and ROG captained the lions in nothing games, so dont give me that. Did you call the best number 8 in world rugby "laid back" emmm.

Sergio Parisse the worlds best no 8 is laid up not laid back.