The Six Nations General Banter Thread. Read Mod Warning. Post no.5

danthefan · 06-01-2010 4:36pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Indeed, just pointing out it wasn't solely Hook who didn't rate Bowe.

Tbf, Bowe is a much improved player, and at the time Trimble was playing well.

Gavin Duffy also went ahead of those mentioned previously.

Riskymove · 06-01-2010 4:36pm

danthefan wrote: »

I wouldn't judge anything on the RWC squad. Heaslip, Kearney, Fitz and Bowe all went from not being at the RWC to being Grand Slam winners and test Lions. Think it says more about EOS than the players.

But this is the point, you can only judge at the time

why have people saying Earls wont make the squad almost two years from now? who knows what will happen..

danthefan · 06-01-2010 4:37pm

I'm sure Earls will be going to the RWC by the way. However I don't think he should be starting in the 6N.

Size=everything · 06-01-2010 4:37pm

Riskymove wrote: »

you are just going around in circles ...you wont listen

my original point was about your biais in making calls, you inevitably go against the Munster player..its not about an individual selection and I dont have any problem with arguing over a

your idea to drop DOC for Cullen to develop a pairing with POC is an example, its ridiculous to me and goes against all your other arguments about form and ability etc

You agreed with me on Healy, Sexton and O'Brien so really you only have a problem with Cullen over O'Callaghan which I have chosen to experiment and create a competitive squad and Trimble over Earls who I have chosen due to his excellent form as of late. You have agreed that of Reddan, Stringer and Boss that O'leary is playing the worst yet you still have a go at me picking Reddan but no one picking O'leary...odd...

If I was to suggest dropping D'Arcy to play earles with BOD at centre to "develop a pairing" I know what your reaction would be....(or god help us if I suggested dropping BOD for Earles for the same reason!!) [/quote]

Yes as that would severely limit our ability to win the game.

you should pick the best team to win

Thats why I have tried to balance the old with the young.

and those opinions have nothing to do with who they play for

Nor do mine.

Riskymove · 06-01-2010 4:39pm

Stev_o wrote: »

not using it as a squad development tool.

a great point, while you need to blood players somewhat...

i want Ireland to win the 6N this year and next, any changes should be ones that are forced or needed not for the sake of it

Riskymove · 06-01-2010 4:41pm

Size=everything wrote: »

Yes as that would severely limit our ability to win the game.

how do you know if you dont try it? isnt that you argument for Cullen/POC

Nor do mine.

alright then lets leave that there

Size=everything · 06-01-2010 4:42pm

Riskymove wrote: »

in "friendlies"

Firstly there are no 'friendlies' in rugby

secondly you seem all too eager to quote Earls try record from friendlies featuring the might of Fiji and Canada.

1 try in 13 6N matches

Most of which he played centre.

dont forget things change fast, kearney was not even the dead-cert starting Full-back before last year's 6N

But generally when someone is going to be world class as Earls was hailed they show signs of it by 22. Look at O'Driscoll, Giteau, Carter, Brussow etc.

Size=everything · 06-01-2010 4:45pm

Riskymove wrote: »

how do you know if you dont try it? isnt that you argument for Cullen/POC

How can you equate dropping the national captain, best player on the team and one of the greatest players to ever play for Ireland for a young player who hasnt evden found his position with swapping a HC winning captain, seasoned veteran and good form playing second row with O'Callaghan as the same risk?

Baffling

Amazotheamazing · 06-01-2010 4:47pm

Size=everything wrote: »

But generally when someone is going to be world class as Earls was hailed they show signs of it by 22. Look at O'Driscoll, Giteau, Carter, Brussow etc.

Earls has shown signs of it. Unless yu expect him to be a complete player by the age of 22? I dislike throwing out coaches as an end to an argument, but I'm going with Kidney and mcGeehan's opinion of Earls over yours.

Riskymove · 06-01-2010 4:47pm

[

QUOTE=Size=everything;63828888]Firstly there are no 'friendlies' in rugby

I agree, thats why i put it in quotes but thats what the irish rugby site describes them as...it covers AIs, Tours etc

secondly you seem all too eager to quote Earls try record from friendlies featuring the might of Fiji and Canada.

do I?

only in response to Trimble's record being put forward as a reason to select him; how else can you compare it

But generally when someone is going to be world class as Earls was hailed they show signs of it by 22. Look at O'Driscoll, Giteau, Carter, Brussow etc.

for that sort of level perhaps but that doesn't mean he couldnt be international class for many years

Size=everything · 06-01-2010 4:50pm

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Earls has shown signs of it. Unless yu expect him to be a complete player by the age of 22? I dislike throwing out coaches as an end to an argument, but I'm going with Kidney and mcGeehan's opinion of Earls over yours.

Well hold on. He wasn't a regular under Kidney's Munster and McGahan didn't trust him enough at centre and signed JDV. I don't want a complete player but if a player is claimed by many to be a future world class rugby player up there with the likes of O'Driscoll you expect to see that potential by 22.

Riskymove · 06-01-2010 4:51pm

Size=everything wrote: »

How can you equate dropping the national captain, best player on the team and one of the greatest players to ever play for Ireland for a young player who hasnt evden found his position with swapping a HC winning captain, seasoned veteran and good form playing second row with O'Callaghan as the same risk?

Baffling

I suggested D'arcy as you are aware...I think my BOD reference could be seen as a bit tongue in cheek:rolleyes:

my point is that I knew you would not accept the same rationale as you put forward for dropping DOC...I dont think it would matter who i suggested putting in the centre

danthefan · 06-01-2010 4:51pm

Fitz and Earls are basically the same age, I would say Fitz is a far more complete player at this stage than Earls.

Edit - seems Fitz is a few weeks older only.

Riskymove · 06-01-2010 4:52pm

danthefan wrote: »

Fitz and Earls are basically the same age, I would say Fitz is a far more complete player at this stage than Earls.

Edit - seems Fitz is a few weeks older only.

I dont see anyone arguing that

Fitz emerged at a younger age and is more experienced at that level

Size=everything · 06-01-2010 4:53pm

for that sort of level perhaps but that doesn't mean he couldnt be international class for many years

Oh of course. I'm not disputing that. I just think he was overhyped in the sense that many claimed he was going to be the next O'Driscoll. He will be a good international player but I doubt he'll ever be good enough to displace Fitzgerald or Bowe on the wings, Kearney at full back and certainly not BOD at 13.

Size=everything · 06-01-2010 4:54pm

Riskymove wrote: »

I suggested D'arcy as you are aware...I think my BOD reference could be seen as a bit tongue in cheek:rolleyes:

my point is that I knew you would not accept the same rationale as you put forward for dropping DOC...I dont think it would matter who i suggested putting in the centre

Right so you want to start a player who has never played 12 at 12 in a 6 nations opener?

Or do you want to move the best 13 in the world out of position to accomadate him?

Both ideas are equally absurd and far more risky than starting Cullen ahead of O'Callaghan no matter how you try and spin it.

Riskymove · 06-01-2010 4:54pm

Size=everything wrote: »

Oh of course. I'm not disputing that. I just think he was overhyped in the sense that many claimed he was going to be the next O'Driscoll. He will be a good international player but I doubt he'll ever be good enough to displace Fitzgerald or Bowe on the wings, Kearney at full back and certainly not BOD at 13.

well, as I say, things happen fast in rugby

Size=everything · 06-01-2010 4:56pm

Riskymove wrote: »

I dont see anyone arguing that

Fitz emerged at a younger age and is more experienced at that level

He emerged at a younger age for a reason. Earls had only Dowling to compete with and still couldn't secure a regular spot.

Riskymove · 06-01-2010 4:57pm

Size=everything wrote: »

Right so you want to start a player who has never played 12 at 12 in a 6 nations opener?

Or do you want to move the best 13 in the world out of position to accomadate him?

Both ideas are equally absurd and far more risky than starting Cullen ahead of O'Callaghan.

as I say it is about your rationale, I doubt it matters who is to come in...forget about earls for a minute

surely we need to "develop pairings" at centre as well as lock

should we sacrifice D'Arcy in the 6N simply to see how well someone else gets on with BOD????

Should we drop BOD to develop a backup in case of injury???

Riskymove · 06-01-2010 4:58pm

Size=everything wrote: »

Earls had only Dowling to compete with and still couldn't secure a regular spot.

ever hear of Doug Howlett?

Size=everything · 06-01-2010 4:59pm

Riskymove wrote: »

well, as I say, things happen fast in rugby

I don't know, Earls is in his 4th professional year and I am still not convinced he is the world class prospect he was made out to be. Hopefully I'm wrong. But if your looking for potential world class players under 23 then
Kearney
Fitzgerald
Conway

would be the 3 I would pick if I was asked to quess potential world player of the year nominees in the next decade

Size=everything · 06-01-2010 4:59pm

Riskymove wrote: »

ever hear of Doug Howlett?

ever hear of 2 wing positions?

danthefan · 06-01-2010 5:00pm

Riskymove wrote: »

ever hear of Doug Howlett?

He's hardly going to be playing on both wings at once.

twinytwo · 06-01-2010 5:04pm

Size=everything wrote: »

3 tries against Fiji.

Can't see him starting ahead of :

Fitzgerald or Bowe on the wing.

O'Driscoll in the centre

or Kearney at Full back

em... if ur going to go on about earls at least try to get the stats right...No one is saying he should start ahead of any of these players but you are carrying on as if he shouldnt be allowed play for ireland

Size=everything · 06-01-2010 5:04pm

Riskymove wrote: »

as I say it is about your rationale, I doubt it matters who is to come in...forget about earls for a minute

surely we need to "develop pairings" at centre as well as lock

should we sacrifice D'Arcy in the 6N simply to see how well someone else gets on with BOD????

Should we drop BOD to develop a backup in case of injury???

We have Paddy Wallace proven at 12. Fitzgerald can play 13 along with Earls but its too much of a risk to try that one out in the 6 nations. Drop O'Driscoll for a friendly to try out some combos but not 6N.

You drop O'Driscoll and we could potentially lose a game. Droping O'Callaghan for Cullen doesn't pose this risk. Either does dropping Wallace to give O'Brien a chance.

Size=everything · 06-01-2010 5:06pm

twinytwo wrote: »

em... if ur going to go on about earls at least try to get the stats right...No one is saying he should start ahead of any of these players but you are carrying on as if he shouldnt be allowed play for ireland

Not at all I'm arguing against the person claiming he is going to be a regular for Ireland come WC

Like I said I can't see him getting ahead of Fitzgerald, Bowe or Kearney.

twinytwo · 06-01-2010 5:08pm

Size=everything wrote: »

Well hold on. He wasn't a regular under Kidney's Munster and McGahan didn't trust him enough at centre and signed JDV. I don't want a complete player but if a player is claimed by many to be a future world class rugby player up there with the likes of O'Driscoll you expect to see that potential by 22.

JDV was brought in as a replacement for tipoki.. it had nothing to do with earls playing centre

Size=everything · 06-01-2010 5:10pm

twinytwo wrote: »

JDV was brought in as a replacement for tipoki.. it had nothing to do with earls playing centre

What I am saying is once JDV was brought in it was obvious it was going to be

12.JDV
13.Mafi

whereas if McGahan trusted in Earls, didnt sign JDV we'd of seen

12.Mafi
13.Earls

twinytwo · 06-01-2010 5:11pm

Size=everything wrote: »

Not at all I'm arguing against the person claiming he is going to be a regular for Ireland come WC

Like I said I can't see him getting ahead of Fitzgerald, Bowe or Kearney.

Can you see the future?... he may or may not wc is still along way off.

twinytwo · 06-01-2010 5:16pm

Size=everything wrote: »

What I am saying is once JDV was brought in it was obvious it was going to be

12.JDV
13.Mafi

whereas if McGahan trusted in Earls, didnt sign JDV we'd of seen

12.Mafi
13.Earls

do you know mcGahan?....

the signing of jdv had nothing to do with "trust" he got the best player he could to replace the one he lost...

your whole argument is getting ridiculous at this stage.

The Six Nations General Banter Thread. *Read Mod Warning. Post no.5*

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The Six Nations General Banter Thread. Read Mod Warning. Post no.5