News and views on Greystones harbour and marina [SEE MODERATOR WARNING POST 1187]

mikedragon32

Derek Mitchell wrote:

It will be the best community harbour in Ireland or Britain

What? Better than Dun Laoghaire's municipal Marina or the general harbour area? Better than any of the harbours on the Isle of White?

What happened to the "World Class" marina we were promised?

Is this the same Derek Mitchell who, as recently as November 2010, stated:

Derek Mitchell wrote:

4 Nov 2010

The next stage will start in January and finish in December 2011 after which most hoardings will come down. This stage consists of the 4 storey Health Centre, public square and free clubhouses for the Sea Scouts, Rowers, Divers, Sailors and Anglers.

So, he's rolled back from promising all of those things listed in November to just a Marina now. Does that mean in October he may admit that what we'll most likely have is just some concrete piers without even mooring posts?

Or maybe he'll just admit to not having a clue about what's actually going on.

Fiachra2

Son of Jack wrote: »

However, the bond is not exercisable until 2014. I believe that these facilities will be completed long before then, but at least we have a backstop date.

r.

That is the really scary part of the letter. Cllr Mitchell is actually prepared to countenance the hoardings being there for 3-4more years!

Son of Jack

So hypothetically a child born in 2000 sees the hoardings going up in 2008 aged 8.

The bond is released in 2014 and there is a year's 'build' before the hoardings come down when they are 15.

No access to the harbour for almost half their life.

A teenager in 2008 (@13) will see all his teenage years pass before the 'build' complete and the hoardings come down (@20).

With the economic situation, he'll see the 'finished product' when he comes home from working abroad for holidays.

pixbyjohn

Fiachra2 wrote: »

That is the really scary part of the letter. Cllr Mitchell is actually prepared to countenance the hoardings being there for 3-4more years!

Did many of the group "give us back our harbour" go to the Town Council meeting last night ?

F3

About 6 went

vinpaul

If as few as 6 turned up, the level of support for those agitating against the proposed plans seems almost neglible.
Why keep objecting, when the only route to giving us some chance of using the facilities is to let development proceed at whatever pace NAMA will allow. The sooner work proceeds, the sooner the hoardings will come down and forget about idle promises from politicos.

Fiachra2

vinpaul wrote: »

If as few as 6 turned up, the level of support for those agitating against the proposed plans seems almost neglible.
Why keep objecting, when the only route to giving us some chance of using the facilities is to let development proceed at whatever pace NAMA will allow. The sooner work proceeds, the sooner the hoardings will come down and forget about idle promises from politicos.

Well actually there are only 9 councillors. Of them two that I know of would support the community. So those who want to find a workable sollution to the problem were in the majority in the room.

However we digress.....

F3

vinpaul wrote: »

If as few as 6 turned up, the level of support for those agitating against the proposed plans seems almost neglible.
Why keep objecting, when the only route to giving us some chance of using the facilities is to let development proceed at whatever pace NAMA will allow. The sooner work proceeds, the sooner the hoardings will come down and forget about idle promises from politicos.

Where you there Vinpaul? Your use of the word 'agitating' is unusual to describe a community, yet it was the word used by a councillor to describe the feelings of the concerned people of Greystones, perhaps it's just an unusual coincident.

vinpaul

No I was not at the council meeting. I don't see the point in any more protests.
The major construction work is finished and will not be undone. At this stage all I wish to see is the harbour and the surrounding area being opened up to the public. I am a regular walker around the enclosed building site and it is not a pleasant sight.
I understand that any future funding is conditional on NAMA releasing funds. I hope that this should be forthcoming sooner rather than later and let's stop the bickering that seems to be attracting far too much attention both locally and nationally.

Fiachra2

vinpaul wrote: »

No I was not at the council meeting. I don't see the point in any more protests.
The major construction work is finished and will not be undone. At this stage all I wish to see is the harbour and the surrounding area being opened up to the public. I am a regular walker around the enclosed building site and it is not a pleasant sight.
I understand that any future funding is conditional on NAMA releasing funds. I hope that this should be forthcoming sooner rather than later and let's stop the bickering that seems to be attracting far too much attention both locally and nationally.

In that case Vinpaul you are of exactly the same mind with those who are campaigning to have the hoardings removed!

However you should be aware that the situation is not as simple as you believe it to be. The assertions of some local politicians published in the media are in many cases inaccurate and based on a very limited understanding of the scale and nature of the problem they face.

Nobody is trying to stop anything at this stage. But as has always been the case with this unfortunate development, a resolution would be a lot easier if all parties actually listened to what others are saying.

F3

As we are essentially in almost total darkness on the real facts, all we can do is make educated guesses on what is likely to be the case, and with that qualification in mind, the entire development costs are supposedly in the region of 300million. It is my understanding that AIB was to fund Sispar for the development but after a mere 70 to 80million spent today in 'making the site' (by land reclaimation via breakwaters and infill I.e. The marine works) AIB may be having difficulty (now nationalised) in providing the residual €220 million to complete the development as the original loan may have been lent (in part at least) against the value of the reclaimed land (the site) hence NAMA's interest or involvement. (again I'm joining dots here) If NAMA do not fund the remaining €220 million, then Sispar may need to renegotiate finance from another private source. If anyone can correct me on my assumptions please do as fumbling around in the dark is fin to begin with, but the matter is getting very serious indeed, and the people of GREYSTONES need answers now.

Blandpebbles

have to agree with vin, a lot of moaning and face booking but no actually real protesting. this thread is now a means to vent and then get back to things that matter such as getting paid to work and raising a family.

all this talk of a generation of kids not getting to use the harbour is very odd too... As a kid growing up in Greystones hardly any kids hung out at the old harbour, what makes the new desolate waste ground of a harbour more attractive?

FYI there are rowing and sailing clubs ongoing operating out of the harbour with a large kid participation, so not sure what this generation of kids is growing up missing apart from probably having somewhere to drink, s**g and sit around moaning about how there is no cinema, shopping centre or niteclubs.

All of which could have been built at a fraction of the harbour bill.

The harbour is simply a totem for the frustration of those who feel hard done by in the economic recession. 99% of the people will never see it, use it or care about it. The north beach entrance has been open for weeks and yet its deserted, because people don't actual care.

recedite

F3 wrote: »

If NAMA do not fund the remaining €220 million, then Sispar may need to renegotiate finance from another private source.

I'm no expert..... but AFAIK Nama take over and manage existing debt, I don't think they have a mandate to issue new loans. If money has not been drawn down from AIB prior to Nama taking over, then AIB are hardly obliged to put up any more funds? Nama will only issue money for the purposes of finishing off a development and bringing it to market, whereupon they will get back their money plus the original loan (or as much of it as can be salvaged).

Blandpebbles wrote: »

all this talk of a generation of kids not getting to use the harbour is very odd too... As a kid growing up in Greystones hardly any kids hung out at the old harbour, what makes the new desolate waste ground of a harbour more attractive?

Obviously its not more attractive now.
Teenagers dived and swam off the old harbour wall and the kish. People fished off it. Mothers and toddlers hung out at the sandy area of the silted up harbour. Small craft could launch there. It was a good amenity, with convenient parking. The fact that it was being used for activities other than those it was originally designed for is neither here nor there.

The north beach entrance has been open for weeks and yet its deserted, because people don't actual care

Nobody will use the new designated North Beach Swimming Area. It was badly designed. It is too far from parking area, windswept, desolate, deep water, unpredictable waves, ugly concrete and steel environment, and last but not least, it has no sand.

darter

Blandpebbles wrote: »

have to agree with vin, a lot of moaning and face booking but no actually real protesting. this thread is now a means to vent and then get back to things that matter such as getting paid to work and raising a family.

I disagree with much of what you say, but on this you are correct - for now at least. Actions speak louder than words, but so far it reminds me of the saying -
When all is said and done, there is usually far more said than done.

Someone needs to take charge and organize a rally and protest demonstration.

Hopefully the groundswell of indignation and desire for the hoardings to come down (FB site) will gain momentum and prevail for this Summer...

F3

Some if us are not just venting, some of us are actually in the process of obtaining all of the facts from the parties directly, then exploring and proffering solutions that meet the needs of all associated parties to the harbour. This is not an easy issue to resolve but a resolution will be forthcoming.

F3

Out of the 10 or so Councilers at the meeting last week, all but one agreed that an interim steep should be explored to opening harbour to the community, that a significant wind of change. At almost 400 members, the face book group is gaining strength and credibility. If action is required, then action will be taken, but it will be the action of a community not radicals.

Blandpebbles

'in the process of', 'exploring', 'forthcoming'... all suitably vague. Define community? 400 people is not a community is a minority movement.

In the 44 pages of this thread not one single word has had an impact on the harbour development... it is talk about talk about talk.. nothing more.

The harbour will be finished when it is finished and meanwhile 99.75% of the population will remain uninterested in it until it is finished and can be used.

The north beach is a lovely weather protected spot, with a sandy beach, superb swimming and easy access. Haven't been down there in a while?

Hopefully the .25% of the Greystones on FB will form a groundswell and have the hoardings removed. Where are our elected local TDs in all this, sadly absent as I predicted.

F3

Bland, I understand your pessimism, but some of us are actually in discussions with all parties right now, not vague, but very focused

The Durutti Column

Oh, Bland. Where do you even get the energy to post your gloomy posts?

None of us have any time for politicians and their wiles, directed to one object only, but they have to be taken account of. It takes work and persistence, no matter how distasteful the task might be, to gain any benefit from the rigged system we are faced with.

Tell you what, you go on posting the gloom and we'll get the hoardings down, the 0.25% of us. Then you can buy us all a pint in the Beach House while we contemplate the new view. And we'll buy you the portion of Humble Pie with cream...

littlemaxi

Blandpebbles wrote: »

all this talk of a generation of kids not getting to use the harbour is very odd too... As a kid growing up in Greystones hardly any kids hung out at the old harbour, what makes the new desolate waste ground of a harbour more attractive?

The north beach entrance has been open for weeks and yet its deserted, because people don't actual care.

As a kid who grew up in Greystones, and now a mum myself, the old harbour was always a favourite local amenity - spent many afternoons/evenings with a toddler/boy wandering around harbour, exploring the rocks, having a paddle, playing in sand, talking to fishermen/anglers/other mums & dads....just as my parents did with me. And I know there are many many more who would tell you exactly the same. I look forward to the opening up of new harbour to once again take a stroll and enjoy the sea air...

I for one, didn't know the north beach section was open until I read this thread this evening, and I doubt many others do either, but Im sure once word gets around, more and more people will be only too glad to use it. I dont for one minute agree with blandpebbles, that people don't care.. thats just a ridiculous statement.

F3

Bland I didn't realise you were in public office, if indeed you are then what do you think we should do? How about a 50 foot banner across the front of the Beach House and a petition book opened for passers by? would that convince you then that the town is boiling? I only joined this blog recently after my 7 year old son walked down the new slip and could not believe what he saw behind the hoardings, I promised him and his two older brothers that I would do all that I can to get their harbour back, and I will do it without passion and with total objectivity, that is what I intend doing, and there are thousands like me in this town. Maybe you could help us. Old battles have been fought and lost. We now have change, and change must be managed. Public elected representatives have an obligation and responsibility to do just that, just sometimes they lose their way. If you can help I welcome you with open arms, but please don't spread doom and gloom. Kind regards, F3

Blandpebbles

Bit confusing that... goal is to make politicians accountable or to bring down the hoardings?

Neither will be accomplished by anyone on FB or here. It will be a politician standing shaking hands with a developer followed by the subsequent media...

FYI - .25% surely includes all those who moan about the Beachhouse and the Burnaby so perhaps a cider on the harbour wall... oh wait I think I have created a paradox.

Anyway this thread is about info on the harbour

So any news on the harbour?

F3 I do understand your optimism and approach, its quite courageous and I am by no means telling you to stop.. rather to be realistic.

FB is not the road, rather perhaps a class action suit against the council and the developer would be more appropriate.

F3

Yes, it appears that the contractor is 'failing to proceed with reasonable diligence' and it would appear that WCC have allowed them to do so. There is a distraction over phase 3 works regarding a material change requested by the developer?? Which requires an EIA followed by an EIS And for some reason phase 2 works have stopped. Seems like scrambled egg to me, but in the meantime we would like an interim measure taken to remove the hoardings while WCC and Sispar unscramble their eggs so we can enjoy the amenity in the interim. Easy as that! F3, have you any reason as to why this wouldn't work, if you do I'd genuinely like to hear it, I've lots of ideas that tick the political, contractual, commercial, technical boxes so please let me know, kind regards F3

Cheeky Chops

http://ciaranhayden.com/media/?p=873

I would comment but I am not born and bred in Greystones and therefore Ciaran Hayden would find my opinion irrelevant.

F3

Cheeky, your views are very welcome......

The Durutti Column

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

http://ciaranhayden.com/media/?p=873

I would comment but I am not born and bred in Greystones and therefore Ciaran Hayden would find my opinion irrelevant.

You'd think he would, as a politician, only be interested in the fact you have a vote... most people living in Greystones now are 'born & bred' elsewhere... feckin' furriners...

recedite

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

http://ciaranhayden.com/media/?p=873

"If it is the wish of the entire community I will call for a meeting"

LOL he, or any one person, has a veto over holding this proposed meeting.

F3

Ive just seen this posted on the FB page and like the simplicity of it:

With Regard to the Mayors letter, It occurs to me, and I'm sure to others, that the reported €80million expended on the marine works (harbour) to reclaim the land to build 400 units requires revenue of €200,000 per unit to just break even on the works done to date. Is it not likely that the reason Sispar have stopped working and thus stopped spending money, is to wait for the property Market to recover? (Albeit I think that's to coincide with the day that hell will freeze over). Why do you not just for once admit that this is 'likely' rather than pretend it is some other evil that has stopped the work? I would appreciate the Mayors views of his own understanding of the contract regarding the duties and obligations of both WCC and Sispar, and in particular any clauses that deal with a failure by the Contractor to proceed with reasonable diligence bearing in mind that there are plenty of original works [not affected by EIS's etc] to be getting on with to meet the 2014 completion date. I would point out that the response "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable response to any question posed, we can deal with what public elected representatives "ought to know" at a later stage before drafting press releases etc.

F3

F3 wrote: »

Ive just seen this posted on the FB page and like the simplicity of it:

With Regard to the Mayors letter, It occurs to me, and I'm sure to others, that the reported €80million expended on the marine works (harbour) to reclaim the land to build 400 units requires revenue of €200,000 per unit to just break even on the works done to date. Is it not likely that the reason Sispar have stopped working and thus stopped spending money, is to wait for the property Market to recover? (Albeit I think that's to coincide with the day that hell will freeze over). Why do you not just for once admit that this is 'likely' rather than pretend it is some other evil that has stopped the work? I would appreciate the Mayors views of his own understanding of the contract regarding the duties and obligations of both WCC and Sispar, and in particular any clauses that deal with a failure by the Contractor to proceed with reasonable diligence bearing in mind that there are plenty of original works [not affected by EIS's etc] to be getting on with to meet the 2014 completion date. I would point out that the response "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable response to any question posed, we can deal with what public elected representatives "ought to know" at a later stage before drafting press releases etc.

If you replace the word 'likely' with 'possible' then Hayden would have no were to go, as we all know nothing is impossible! [A typical Barrister cross-examination trick] [I'm told]

The Durutti Column

recedite wrote: »

"If it is the wish of the entire community I will call for a meeting"

LOL he, or any one person, has a veto over holding this proposed meeting.

Indeed. I imagine the meeting can occur without his presence. But the key point about his letter is the old pol's trick of trying to sideline the issue into sub-committees where the dice are loaded in his favour. Both the committees he refers to are dominated by pro-development, keep-the-hoardings elements. Presumably he's reading the tea leaves and knows that already the rest of the town council is far from supporting him on this one...

But shunting it aside is not going to happen this time.