News and views on Greystones harbour and marina [SEE MODERATOR WARNING POST 1187]

Blanchflower

doylerd wrote: »

I don't know but suspect it won't happen, at least on any great scale

The important thing is that the hoadings are demolished so we get our harbour back again. No amount of weasel words from the political class can deny us this. It must be done!

F3

I don't think it will be this Saturday, but I'm sure it will a Saturday very soon

F3

doylerd wrote: »

I don't know but suspect it won't happen, at least on any great scale

I'm not so sure I agree, there are a lot of very upset families in Greystones, when the time comes to unite, I think you will be surprised of the scale of the upset that this harbour has caused.

F3

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

Is there a FB page? It is incredible how effective viral campaigns are (and they are easy ..)

I think a Facebook page would be a great idea to get the word out quickly, is this somthing you could do and manage?

psycho-hope

doylerd wrote: »

Quite off topic lads & ladies but I can get a number of opinions this way - what's the situation with the summer Arts Festival? I assume it was discontinued due to lack of sponsorship? Personally I always thought it got a good summertime buzz in the town for a week. Has it even been on since they defiled the harbour and started excavating for that wretched monstrosity that now stands there?

Son of Jack wrote: »

Councillor Grainne McLoughlin who has recently returned to active politics in Greystones was always I believe the main organizer behind the Arts Festival. She has said that she is interested in reviving it.

She has also secured a net for the volleyball at the beach in Greystones...

''but am looking for a group who will take up the mantle of minding it - has anyone any ideas - Insurance I think might be ok but it is really to ensure that it is taken down when not in use and stored carefully so that everyone can have use of it. Has anyone any ideas?''

Back on topic; she is also committed to getting the hoardings removed at the harbour.

Most of the older members of the committee stood down and there was no one to replace them, my grandfather was one of the founding members and he was heartbroken to see it go, but there was no one else to put the time in to keep it going.

greystones harbour

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/

Son of Jack

Indeed seven Facebook pages on Greystones Harbour and the one with 681 members (in terms of numbers at least) would like a good one to revive.

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Actually I think the development of Greystones
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F3

http://ciaranhayden.com/media/?p=821

And so the blame game begins............

Annasopra

I found this poster very ironic

Huntthe

The so called ‘concerned residents’ of this town that objected to this fantastic scheme

There was I thinking I was a concerned resident but when I saw it in inverted comma's I than realised I was just a 'mischief maker' .

dudmis

I'm not sure of the history of the marina development as I wasn't living in the area at the time, but is there any stats as to how many residents were mischief makers and objected to the development?

Fiachra2

dudmis wrote: »

I'm not sure of the history of the marina development as I wasn't living in the area at the time, but is there any stats as to how many residents were mischief makers and objected to the development?

• 1997 a survey of about 2000 houses in Greysones. 92% objcted
• Submissions on 1997 and 2003 town plans. 80% objected
• Bord Pleanalahearing in 2006. 6000 submissions objected
• Bord Pleanala Hearing in 2007 4000 objections
• WCC have twice held "public consultations" on the project in which the public were invited to make written submissions. The results of these were never published presumably because they were consistent with the other findings.

dudmis

thanks, those stats make for interesting reading.

now i'm just surprised that cllr. hayden would want to insult half of the voting pop of the town in his media release...

mikedragon32

While I was in favour of the development, I would very much doubt that those who objected would appreciate this:

there any stats as to how many residents were mischief makers and objected to the development?

. It is people's right to object, hardly making mischief!

None of the above matters now anyway. To coin a phrase used by Government apologists late last year, "we are where we are", and I think everyone is in agreement that whatever the rights and wrongs of the development, the hoardings must come down!

dudmis

mikedragon32 wrote: »

While I was in favour of the development, I would very much doubt that those who objected would appreciate this: . It is people's right to object, hardly making mischief!
!

Ooops, sorry, still trying to get used to the site - I was quoting Cllr Hayden's media release - I wasn't calling objectors 'mischief makers' myself. No offense meant...

F3

Managing change is a fact of life, real life. There are people (elected public representatives and concerned parties) that have been involved in this project for 12 years or more, which I believe is an extraordinarily long time for any person to remain entirely impartial especially when it comes to change and dealing with change. If people do not stand back for a moment and take a deep breath, then any perceived personal 'legacy' that they may have wished for will be destroyed by those same people adopting non-tenable positions because of inherent inabilities to deal with and manage change, or just bloody-mindedness (if that is a word).

There are others, like my friend above, and indeed myself, that are genuinely concerned citizens of Greystones, who are impartial, apolitical and simply want the best for their families and for this beautiful town, which is Irelands best kept secret. Lets stop the blame game and work together to manage this change and find a solution (and I do believe there is a solution).

The Durutti Column

F3 wrote: »

http://ciaranhayden.com/media/?p=821

And so the blame game begins............

This is pure bull****! All it tells us, as if we didn't know, is that politicians don't listen.

The core of Hayden's statement is:

“A solo run, by the leader of this organisation, in An Bord Pleanala has now introduced uncertainty into the future of this world class facility for the community of Greystones. This project has been dragged ragged by certain residents of this town and they have caused delay after delay and achieved nothing. In forcing the Developers into a new EIS they will also achieve nothing but more delay. It is all these delays that are keeping the hoarding up and nothing else."

Let's parse this: 'has now introduced uncertainty into the future of this world class facility'.

NO NO and NO: The uncertainty was introduced by the collapse of the property market engineered by Hayden's FF colleagues; it was amplified by his FF colleagues on WCC joining with their allies Fine Gael to vote 34 added units onto the ABP-permitted total. The latter vote, warned against on the night by Tom Fortune for exactly this reason, CAUSED ABP to demand a new EIS — a demand which WCC then ignored, which seems to be prima facie ILLEGAL and beyond its powers.

In fact, early in 2010 when WCC first sought the extra 34 units, ABP itself warned this would require a further EIS — yet these clowns voted for the 34 units in full knowledge that this would ensue.

If the hoardings stay up beyond this summer, it's because of this vote. Not because Fiachra Etchingham wrote to ABP asking if ignoring the EIS was legal.


The bottom line is that Hayden's statement is FALSE. It confuses cause and effect. It is a blatant LIE and, if I were Etchingham, I'd be taking legal advice to check if it is libellous.

‎1. There would have been no demand for a new EIS if Hayden's colleagues had not pushed through the 34 new dwellings.
2. There was no planning purpose to the 34 new dwellings. The purpose was, we are told, to loosen NAMA's purse-strings.
3. NAMA might or might not have approved finance for the clubhouses and primary care centre in either case.
4. Ergo, the current mess was CAUSED by politicians ignoring a warning which turned out to be only too correct.
5. Therefore the only explanation for the current campaign by the 'Mayor' against the citizenry is that its purpose is to HIDE the responsibility of the WCC members who voted for this; and to SHIFT THE BLAME onto said citizens.

Don't think the citizens can't see through this. We can, we do, we know what you're about. We are watching you. Time you started to listen rather than spouting nonsense and false allegations.

Worth trawling through the recent entries here: http://www.facebook.com/ciaran.hayden on the harbour issue to see just what contempt our 'mayor' has for those who do not agree with him...

The comments are described as 'trash' (actually, as 'thrash' (sic)). The two commenters, are referred to in virtually racist terms -- one is not 'from the area' and the other is 'not even from this country'.

Shame on you, Hayden...

Here's a question: how does Hayden know this? Are people under investigation?

Some more links on this:
http://www.greystonesguide.com/articles/article/6961207/154686.htm
http://www.greystonesguide.com/articles/article/6961207/154665.htm
http://www.greystonesguide.com/articles/article/6961207/154632.htm
http://www.greystonesguide.com/articles/article/6961207/154599.htm
http://www.greystonesguide.com/articles/article/6961207/150150.htm
http://www.greystonesguide.com/articles/article/6961207/150055.htm
http://www.greystonesguide.com/articles/article/6961207/154572.htm
http://www.greystonesguide.com/articles/article/6961207/146625.htm
http://www.greystonesguide.com/articles/article/6961207/141822.htm

The content makes it perfectly clear what the true narrative of this story is. Some councillors are now trying to confuse Greystones citizens with a barrage of lies, quarter-truths and obfuscations.

Annasopra

Folks

Lets not start getting into giving out about councillors regarding this issue. I will lock the thread if it just turns into rants about councillors

The Durutti Column

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Folks

Lets not start getting into giving out about councillors regarding this issue. I will lock the thread if it just turns into rants about councillors

Johnny, it's not a matter of ranting about councillors. If you look into the material you will see that the 'Mayor' of Greystones has made allegations against several citizens and is seeking to lay on them the blame for the hoardings around the harbour staying up.

Persons so accused in public have a right to defend themselves, and others surely have a right to join in rectifying such wrongs. My submission contains not one inaccuracy or falsehood, and also contains a list of links showing what councillors have said since last year on this issue. In the case of several of them, it is their own words which condemn them, not mine. And in the case of others, they agree with me.

I would have to submit, respectfully, that a threat to lock discussion is inappropriate and somewhat of a knee-jerk reaction. So far, this is a civilised and temperate debate, in actual fact, and it's on serious issues including the right of citizens to express their opinion without being subjected to abuse.

Would you not agree?

F3

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0413/1224294553844.html


13th April 2011 Irish Times

Annasopra

The Durutti Column wrote: »

I would have to submit, respectfully, that a threat to lock discussion is inappropriate and somewhat of a knee-jerk reaction.

Yes you can submit this - but at the end of the day - The moderators have final say on this.

So far, this is a civilised and temperate debate

And that is really the nub of it. Im intervening in order to ensure that it stays civilised and temperate.

Oh and please dont drag the discussion off topic by discussing moderation - Any problems PM me

The Durutti Column

F3 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0413/1224294553844.html


13th April 2011 Irish Times

Key sentence here:

This is the second time An Bord Pleanála has told the council and its private sector partner, the Sispar consortium, that an environmental impact statement (EIS) is necessary to assess proposed changes.

The core fact about this is as follows: WCC and Sispar were told by ABP early in 2010 that any change in the number of dwellings would require a further Environmental Impact Assessment. Knowing this, and despite being reminded of it by Cllr Tom Fortune and others on the night, councillors went ahead and voted by 13 to 4 last December to add 34 dwellings under a Part 8 resolution.

This decision triggered the EIS requirement. Nothing else. The result, according to the Times piece, is:

It had been hoped that hoardings which have been in place for almost three years could start to come down late next year.... However, the effect of An Bord Pleanála’s direction that an EIS is necessary now looks set to delay the project further.

Fiachra2

Son of Jack wrote: »

Indeed seven Facebook pages on Greystones Harbour and the one with 681 members (in terms of numbers at least) would like a good one to revive.

Would you have a link to that. I cant find it!

The Durutti Column

Fiachra2 wrote: »

Would you have a link to that. I cant find it!

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=4311437482

LEIN

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Folks

Lets not start getting into giving out about councillors regarding this issue. I will lock the thread if it just turns into rants about councillors

It seems this warning was missed by some.

F3

http://www.greystonesguide.com/articles/article/6961207/155029.htm

F3

F3 wrote: »

Managing change is a fact of life, real life. There are people (elected public representatives and concerned parties) that have been involved in this project for 12 years or more, which I believe is an extraordinarily long time for any person to remain entirely impartial especially when it comes to change and dealing with change. If people do not stand back for a moment and take a deep breath, then any perceived personal 'legacy' that they may have wished for will be destroyed by those same people adopting non-tenable positions because of inherent inabilities to deal with and manage change, or is it just bloody-mindedness ?

There are others, which include myself, that are genuinely concerned citizens of Greystones, who are impartial, apolitical and simply want the best for their families and for this beautiful town, which is Irelands best kept secret. Lets stop the blame game and work together to manage this change and find a solution (and I do believe there is a solution).

I have to repeat the above statement.................

Blanchflower

F3 wrote: »

I have to repeat the above statement.................

The only solution now is for the harbour area to be landscaped and made safe for the public. NAMA will not fund the building of unnecessary structures and that includes a health centre and club facilities. What we need now is our harbour back and the hoardings removed.

pixbyjohn

round and round

Fiachra2

The Durutti Column wrote: »

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=4311437482

Thanks. Will see if that can be made more active.