Daily Mail go for Gately

drkpower · 19-02-2010 12:18pm

walshb wrote: »

Oh my god, are you deliberately being obtuse.

I do belive I said that EVEN if the original autoposy was carried out
in Irealand and that if I wasn't entirely satisfied with it, I could
call for a second opinion.
.

Why were you not entirely satisifed with it?

walshb · 19-02-2010 1:51pm

drkpower wrote: »

Why?
What is your rationale for needing a 2nd PM in either case? Unless you want a PM in all cases, you need to explain specifically why you would want one in this case. Which have failed to do thus far.

Would you want a 2nd PM if your relative died in the USA or Australia?
Would you want a 2nd PM if you are from Dublin and your relative died in Cork?

I have expalined my reasons, you just cannot grasp them.
If my 34 year old son was found dead (abroad) in an apartment after
a night out on the town where drink was involved, and it was, then
YES, I would want a thorough investigation. And if
that meant a 2nd autoposy to be performed when the body arrives home
to its own country performed by the authorities, then yes, I would want it.
I don't think Gately got a thorough investigation here. Just a feeling.

Peace of mind, call it that. You not happy with my reason? Too bad!

You may want to construe from this that I am homophobic, xenophobic, anti foreigner, anti Spanish, anti everything. That's your right. I think it's ridiculous.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 19-02-2010 2:13pm

drkpower wrote: »

Why does one need the peace of mind of a 2nd PM if the PM is done in Spain, but does not need the peace of mind of a 2nd PM if the PM was done in Ireland?

Yup...

Same could be said if he was spanish, died in Ireland and his relatives wanted a second opinion from the spanish authorities...

Dudess · 19-02-2010 2:23pm

Walshb, the back-tracking is astounding. You said the autopsy would be half-assed when done in Spain, you said "these countries" (meaning countries that aren't Ireland) aren't dilligent... and similar hilarious stuff.

walshb wrote: »

Anyway, I can see sensitivity seems to be an issue here with the death.

God yeah, sensitivity with a death - whatever next?!

There's also the sensitivity to stupidity...

I guess figuring that a second opinion on Stephen's death is creating so much tension, I will let it go.

Not so much that, more the other muck (e.g. about the Spanish)...

walshb wrote: »

maybe you shouldn't be so quick to be implying there is prejudice involved just because I believe that the whole affair was suspicious.

You did imply it yourself though with the "it's very hard to keep prejudice out of these things" comment.

Jamie Polite Menopause wrote: »

being a part of the PC brigade prevents you from seeing this... take off your PC blinkers

So commonsense and logic are the latest to be tarred with the "PC" brush?
Learn what politically correct means maybe?

You can stop that any time soon, good lad...

I love the way you always tell people to "stop" saying stuff... as if they'll stop because you tell them to do so.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 19-02-2010 2:30pm

Dudess wrote: »

So commonsense and logic are the latest to be tarred with the "PC" brush?
Learn what politically correct means maybe?

Not at all, but you can't say shít now a days without being called a racist or some other generic bullshít word.

If I don't want to get an autopsy in another country, or want everything about my life to be Irish, that does NOT mean that I am a racist, it doesn't mean I am xenophobic or prejudice... Having trust in your own country is not being a racist. If you don't trust another countries system, you cannot be called any of the above. The "pc brigade" use the racist card whenever possible, you say something bad about any foreigner and you're a racist. It's a load of balls.

I know exactly what "politically correct" means... thank you.

I love the way you always tell people to "stop" saying stuff... as if they'll stop because you tell them to do so.

Wishful thinking, I know...

Ickle Magoo · 19-02-2010 2:40pm

Jamie Polite Menopause wrote: »

Having trust in your own country...

Is this the same country that missed a feckin' golf ball lodged in a throat at a PM?! I'd take my chances with the Spanish tbh, I'd say it's pretty much of a muchness as far as incompetence goes.

drkpower · 19-02-2010 2:40pm

walshb wrote: »

If my 34 year old son was found dead (abroad) in an apartment after a night out on the town where drink was involved, and it was, then YES, I would want a thorough investigation. And ifthat meant a 2nd autoposy to be performed when the body arrives home to its own country performed by the authorities, then yes, I would want it.

IamX wrote: »

Same could be said if he was spanish, died in Ireland and his relatives wanted a second opinion from the spanish authorities... .

What both of you fail to appreciate, and have failed to explain, is why you would want a 2nd PM merely because the PM was done in a different country. You seem to think that such a request is in no way a suggestion on either of your parts that there is something substandard/defective in the manner of a Spanish PM. Which is so obviously defective in logic a child would spot it (made alll the more hilarious by walshb's backtracking having previously called a spanish pm 'half-assed'.....:D)?

So again, can either of you tell me what the reason/basis for such skepticism is?

Would you have the same scepticism if the procedure was done in any foreign country?
What about any other Irish county?
What about a Hospital that wasnt your local hospital?

Do any of the above give rise to this skepticism.....?

OutlawPete · 19-02-2010 2:41pm

walshb wrote: »

And as a moderator maybe you shouldn't be so quick to be implying there is prejudice..

Unless you have a 'Cool Vid' of the Spanish autopsy, then Frada's view is an objective one and he should be able to say or imply whatever he wishes on AH without people attaching excess baggage to his comments.

drkpower · 19-02-2010 2:43pm

Jamie Polite Menopause wrote: »

... Having trust in your own country is not being a racist. If you don't trust another countries system, you cannot be called any of the above.

Trust without reason is either faith or ignorance. And faith isnt applicable here.

oceanclub · 19-02-2010 2:45pm

We should boycott Spanish restaurants until they admit they killed Stepho and kidnapped Maddie.

P.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 19-02-2010 2:47pm

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Is this the same country that missed a feckin' golf ball lodged in a throat at a PM?! I'd take my chances with the Spanish tbh, I'd say it's pretty much of a muchness as far as incompetence goes.

I never said anything about competence. I talked about trust. The trust you have in another country, where you don't speak the language, do not understand the system and do not have many people to talk to about the situation.

drkpower wrote: »

What both of you fail to appreciate...

You seriously fail to read, I have given my reason about 2 or 3 times. I even put it in the largest font available, used CAPS and put it in bold...

and have failed to explain, is why you would want a 2nd PM merely because the PM was done in a different country. You seem to think that such a request is in no way a suggestion on either of your parts that there is something substandard/defective in the manner of a Spanish PM. Which is so obviously defective in logic a child would spot it (made alll the more hilarious by walshb's backtracking having previously called a spanish pm 'half-assed'.....:D)?

So again, can either of you tell me what the reason/basis for such skepticism is?

Would you have the same scepticism if the procedure was done in any foreign country?
What about any other Irish county?
What about a Hospital that wasnt your local hospital?

Do any of the above give rise to this skepticism.....?

Why should one be scorned for wanting a second opinion from their home country? Where they understand the system, language etc etc. Either way, I never said the spanish were incompetent. I never mentioned that they were unable to preform an autopsy or anything of the likes... Yet, through some peoples eyes, we are racists? :rolleyes:

walshb · 19-02-2010 2:50pm

drkpower wrote: »

Trust without reason is either faith or ignorance. And faith isnt applicable here.

Not trusting, and asking for a second opinion, aren't the same thing.

Jeez, it's just a ****ing 2nd opinion. Why do you need these sort of verifiable reasons?

Can't a person not want a second opinion just to be sure and satisfied?

I would entirely understand if a Spanish parent wanted a second opinion on
her child from her home country? What is difficult or strange to want this?

drkpower · 19-02-2010 2:52pm

Jamie Polite Menopause wrote: »

Why should one be scorned for wanting a second opinion from their home country? Where they understand the system, language etc etc. Either way, I never said the spanish were incompetent. I never mentioned that they were unable to preform an autopsy or anything of the likes... Yet, through some peoples eyes, we are racists? :rolleyes:

Have you heard of translation.......?

Trust in one's own country is wonderful. But if the actual evidence is that another country's system (of whatever kind) is equal or better than our own, insisting on trusting our system above theirs is entirely stupid, based on blind trust, rather than anything approaching sense.

Do you trust our military to beat that of the US?:P

drkpower · 19-02-2010 2:54pm

walshb wrote: »

Not trusting, and asking for a second opinion, aren't the same thing.

Jeez, it's just a ****ing 2nd opinion. Why do you need these sort of verifiable reasons?

Can't a person not want a second opinion just to be sure and satisfied?

I would entirely understand if a Spanish parent wanted a second opinion on
her child from her home country? What is difficult or strange to want this?

They can ask for whatever they want. You are the one saying that the Gately family should have done so, and that not doing so is either suspicious or a failure of some kind. You need to support your own allegation.

Your back-tracking is hilarious, by the way. If you scampered back this quickly in boxing, you would be out of the ring by now....:eek:

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 19-02-2010 2:56pm

drkpower wrote: »

Trust without reason is either faith or ignorance. And faith isnt applicable here.

So, if I have confidence, that's what trust is, in something, I either am faithful or ignorant? What? You do not have to have a reason to trust in something, but also... I did explain this earlier too. Language barriers, culture and differant systems. What would you trust more? Something familiar to you for 25+ years or a place you visited for a few weeks?

walshb wrote: »

Not trusting, and asking for a second opinion, aren't the same thing.

Jeez, it's just a ****ing 2nd opinion. Why do you need these sort of verifiable reasons?

Can't a person not want a second opinion just to be sure and satisfied?

I would entirely understand if a Spanish parent wanted a second opinion on
her child from her home country? What is difficult or strange to want this?

You must be a racist if you want to get a second opinion... There's no easy way out of this...

:P

walshb · 19-02-2010 2:57pm

drkpower wrote: »

They can ask for whatever they want. You are the one saying that the Gately family should have done so, and that not doing so is either suspicious or a failure of some kind. You need to support your own allegation.

Your back-tracking is hilarious, by the way. If you scampered back this quickly in boxing, you would be out of the ring by now....:eek:

I said if it was me, I would have....

And yes, I think they should have to be honest. Does this make me racist, homophobic or xenophobic?

They are entitled to do as they please, there is no law against not
asking for a second opinion. I just feel that they may have overlooked this one.

drkpower · 19-02-2010 2:59pm

walshb wrote: »

I said if it was me, I would have....

And yes, I think they should have to be honest. Does this make me racist, homophobic or xenophobic?

They are entitled to do as they please, there is no law against not
asking for a second opinion. I just feel that they may have overlooked this one.

Hahaha!!
You are out of the damn arena now with your shorts around your ankles....:P

Are you really suggesting now that you didnt suggest that the Gately's were wrong not to have asked for a 2nd PM and that not doing so was in some way suspicious???? Think about it now, dont be lying.... (any more than you already have...)

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 19-02-2010 3:03pm

drkpower wrote: »

Have you heard of translation.......?

You think they don't already use that? And how exactly does that gain the trust of the "customer"?

Trust in one's own country is wonderful. But if the actual evidence is that another country's system (of whatever kind) is equal or better than our own, insisting on trusting our system above theirs is entirely stupid, based on blind trust, rather than anything approaching sense.

It has nothing to do with being adequate, having a better system or anything of the sort. If you are in a country with big cultural differances, language barriers and differant systems, then more than likely you will have less trust in that country. Take England, Australia, America or New Zealand for examples. Any idea why one would have slightly more trust in these countries compared to the likes of Spain, Russia, Japan?

Do you trust our military to beat that of the US?:P

That's a fairly silly analogy. Really...

You are still trying to label us as racists. We are not. It's really that simple.

drkpower · 19-02-2010 3:04pm

Jamie Polite Menopause wrote: »

So, if I have confidence, that's what trust is, in something, I either am faithful or ignorant? What? You do not have to have a reason to trust in something, but also... I did explain this earlier too. Language barriers, culture and differant systems. What would you trust more? Something familiar to you for 25+ years or a place you visited for a few weeks?

Its a medical/pathological procedure done by a qualified pathologist and reviewed by a qualified coroner. The language or culture are irrelevent. The question is what is the standard of their medical and coronial systems.

I am very familiar with Bantry General (nio offence to BG); would I prefer to have medical treatment (or my PM) at BG or at a state of the art tertiary centre referral in Madrid........? Eh....... Madrid please.....!!!

Familiarity, language, culture.......when it comes to a medical procedure/expertise those considerations are well down the list and anyone with half a brain can understand that.

You are either dumb or xenophobic. Im not sure which.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 19-02-2010 3:05pm

drkpower wrote: »

Its a medical/pathological procedure done by a qualified pathologist and reviewed by a qualified coroner. The language or culture are irrelevent. The question is what is the standard of their medical and coronial systems.

I am very familiar with Bantry General (nio offence to BG); would I prefer to have medical treatment (or my PM) at BG or at a state of the art tertiary centre referral in Madrid........? Eh....... Madrid please.....!!!

Familiarity, language, culture.......when it comes to a medical procedure/expertise those considerations are well down the list and anyone with half a brain can understand that.

You are either dumb or xenophobic. Im not sure which.

The debate ends when you resort to personal abuse... Cheerio...

Xenophobia is a dislike and/or fear of that which is unknown or different from oneself.

This... I am not.

drkpower · 19-02-2010 3:08pm

Jamie Polite Menopause wrote: »

The debate ends when you resort to personal abuse... Cheerio...
.

No; it ends when you lose!:P
Seeya. When you are ready to answer the questions, we might see you again.

Super-Rush · 19-02-2010 4:59pm

drkpower wrote: »

Its a medical/pathological procedure done by a qualified pathologist and reviewed by a qualified coroner. The language or culture are irrelevent. The question is what is the standard of their medical and coronial systems.

I am very familiar with Bantry General (nio offence to BG); would I prefer to have medical treatment (or my PM) at BG or at a state of the art tertiary centre referral in Madrid........? Eh....... Madrid please.....!!!

Familiarity, language, culture.......when it comes to a medical procedure/expertise those considerations are well down the list and anyone with half a brain can understand that.

You are either dumb or xenophobic. Im not sure which.

Don't post in this thread again.

For everyone, if you can't get your argument across don't resort to personal abuse please.

TequilaMockingBird · 19-02-2010 5:43pm

That's a shame. drkpower was the only one talking sense. I admire his/her stamina.

I personally can't see how walshb gets away with the nonsense he spouts.

Super-Rush · 19-02-2010 5:46pm

If you have any questions you can pm me. This is not the place for this discussion.

oceanclub · 19-02-2010 5:47pm

"There are times when you are simply required to be impolite. There are times when condescension is called for!" - Aaron Sorkin

P.

DeVore · 19-02-2010 5:56pm

I can be VERY blunt at times, but I dont have to descend to name calling or condescension. Its the sign of the victory of your emotions over your reason.

Whoever Aaron Sorkin is, he's wrong.

DeV.

K-9 · 19-02-2010 5:58pm

Jamie Polite Menopause wrote: »

Not at all, but you can't say shít now a days without being called a racist or some other generic bullshít word.

If I don't want to get an autopsy in another country, or want everything about my life to be Irish, that does NOT mean that I am a racist, it doesn't mean I am xenophobic or prejudice... Having trust in your own country is not being a racist. If you don't trust another countries system, you cannot be called any of the above. The "pc brigade" use the racist card whenever possible, you say something bad about any foreigner and you're a racist. It's a load of balls.

I know exactly what "politically correct" means... thank you.

Wishful thinking, I know...

I don't think we got why he thinks it was a half a** autopsy other than some comparison between Spain and Bolivia, which is ridiculous.

walshb · 19-02-2010 9:02pm

K-9 wrote: »

I don't think we got why he thinks it was a half a** autopsy other than some comparison between Spain and Bolivia, which is ridiculous.

Jeez, we get it, my choice of words was a bit harsh. Spain are capable I am sure and aren't retarded or half assed, at least not all the time. You win...

The issue is what Iamxavier is pointing out. For peace of mind and issues concerning different countries and foreign people (abroad) etc etc, then maybe
simply accepting the verdict without asking for a second opinion from the home country, is a little naive, odd, or whatever. That's just me. I would have requested a 2nd autopsy had I been Gately's folks.

And for the umpteenth time, the same applies if Gately was Spanish and died here under the circumstances. I wouldn't see it as odd if the Spanish asked for a second opinion

walshb · 19-02-2010 9:04pm

TequilaMockingBird wrote: »

I personally can't see how walshb gets away with the nonsense he spouts.

Gets away with it? So, now if someone posts against what the majority like, that means it is nonsense and shouldn't be allowed?:rolleyes:

TequilaMockingBird · 19-02-2010 11:36pm

walshb wrote: »

Gets away with it? So, now if someone posts against what the majority like, that means it is nonsense and shouldn't be allowed?:rolleyes:

It's not the first time you have been considered racist is it?

I won't waste my time getting into an argument with you, but in my opinion, you know exactly what you will get away with on this forum, and word your posts so that you can't be banned.

I know most people can't be bothered to pull up some bloke on the internet, myself included, but sometimes people like you need to be reminded that the majority of people find your views disturbing. And odd, to be frank.

Daily Mail go for Gately

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