Daily Mail go for Gately

Dudess

walshb wrote: »

Stupid? Well, unfortunately there are stupid folks in the world, even those charged with carrying out autopisies;)

And their competence is measured arbitrarily by the expert: Walshb!

walshb

drkpower wrote: »

You are not saying 'some folks do....'; you are saying that the family should have had a 2nd opinion and the fact that they didnt (as well as not going to Spain) makes it all a bit suspicious.

So, again, would you like to answer the question:
If a straight Irish guy died in Ireland and had an Irish autopsy, would you ask for a 2nd autopsy, no matter what the result?

I suppose to answer your question I would say that I as an Irish person would place a little more faith in an Irish authority conducting an autopsy on my relative as opposed to a foreign country country conducting the autopsy.
Same way if I was a Spaniard or Frenchman, I would place more faith in them conducting an autopsy on a relative of mine as opposed to an Irish authority. It works both ways, and has ZERO to do with sexual orintation, sex, religion, etc.

drkpower

walshb wrote: »

I suppose to answer your question I would say that I as an Irish person would place a little more faith in an Irish authority conducting an autopsy on my relative as opposed to a foreign country country conducting the autopsy..

Why?
Would you have less faith if a non-Irish person did an autopsy in an irish hospital?
Would you happier if an Irish person did a PM in a foreign hospital?

K-9

walshb wrote: »

So, you don't think it at all suspiscious the circumstances surrounding his
death, and just because some ****ing half ass Spanish autopsy says it was
natural, that makes it so?

Now, I am not saying that they got it wrong, but if I were Gately's parents and my child died under those circumstances, aged 34, I would want a second opinion, at least an autoposy performed by an Irish authority.

That didn't happen, Gately was cremated as soon as he could be.

Maybe I am too precise and inquisitive, but Gately's death from my understanding wasn't an every day occurrence, hence a wee bit of
investigation was needed.

walshb wrote: »

Where did I say that? But, you are automatically assuming that the Spanish would give this their full diligent commitment. A foreigner dead in their country after a night out with his partner and aged 34.

There have been many examples where foreigners, including Irish, had autopsies performed in foreign countries where there was a real lack of diligence, which was only uncovered after a second autopsy was performed.

All I am saying is that if my child died under those circumstances, I would want more than just the word of a foreign authority who have no connection at all to the deceased. Yes, I would want a second autopsy, one performed by my country.

Anyone remember the half ass autopsy performed on that lad shot to death in Bolivia?

See, these countries wouldn't give the same due diligence to a foreigner who dies on
their land. It happens, and more often than you would think. What was the incessant rush to
cremate Stephen Gately?

walshb wrote: »

Where oh where was this mans sexual orientation brought into it?

Straight man dies in foreign country aged 34 after night out, found dead in the morning. Foreigners perform autopsoy and say it's natural? Okay, some will accpet that. I may too, but I would also have an autopsoy performed in my home country, then when I am satisfied, I'd let it rest.

There have been many instances of foreigners dying in countries with autopsies performed that were crap and not accurate, and only because
the relatives asked for a second opinion it would not have been discovered.

With Gately there is no chance for a second opinion, as he was cremated.
Some could say that this was very convenient. Maaybe the detective in
me is the problem.

I'm lost for words.

Spain is slightly different from Bolivia.

It wasn't some Joe Soap, it was a member of Boyzone and the press interest was huge.

Really, xenophobia isn't a good thing. It's irrational and makes people say and think irrational thoughts like the things you just posted.

OutlawPete

walshb wrote: »

Maaybe the detective in
me is the problem.

Oh yeah, blame him.

drkpower

OutlawPete wrote: »

Oh yeah, blame him.

Yes, it must be the private detective.....;)

Cause it couldnt be his friend, the homophobe, or , ya know, the other guy, the xenophobe.....:D

Amazing the qualifications you need to be modded around here......!

OutlawPete

drkpower wrote: »

Yes, it must be the private detective.....;)...!

Yeah, but if he's going to have sex with a detective, could he not at least wait till the guy pulls out before posting online?

K-9

OutlawPete wrote: »

Yeah, but if he's going to have sex with a detective, could he not at least wait till the guy pulls out before posting online?

Bit of Columbo in him maybe?

Fear Uladh

Imagine if you mispelled Mail and put Male.

kmart6

Couldn't believe they got away with this!

walshb

drkpower wrote: »

Why?
Would you have less faith if a non-Irish person did an autopsy in an irish hospital?
Would you happier if an Irish person did a PM in a foreign hospital?

Did I mention it had to be an Irish person performing the autopsy?

Anyway, I can see sensitivity seems to be an issue here with the death. It's old news
anyway. I guess figuring that a second opinion on Stephen's death is creating so much tension, I will let it go. Nobody really knows the full details, and from what I read and from how quickly the whole matter was investigated and then closed, it "seemed" to be a rush job. Now, maybe all was above board, but I would be a little skeptical to be honest.
That doesn't sit well with some people? So ****ing what!

BTW, why is everyone assuming that just because Gately was famous that he had to get
a thorough and above board and detailed investigation?

4zn76tysfajdxp

walshb wrote: »

BTW, why is everyone assuming that just because Gately was famous that he had to get
a thorough and above board and detailed investigation?

Why are you assuming he didn't?

walshb

Justice Old Meal wrote: »

Why are you assuming he didn't?

I'm not. I am simply asking questions, that's the issue.

I believe that maybe a second opinion should have been sought. The
whole scene and circumstances and aftermath of the chaps death seemed very rushed in my opinion. All I would say is that maybe folks shouldn't be so quick to accept the verdicts. Yes, they could have got it all correct and right, but from my understanding, the whole situation seemed rushed. Juror 8 I am.

4zn76tysfajdxp

walshb wrote: »

I'm not. I am simply asking questions, that's the issue.

Well, you are. Watch:

walshb wrote: »

So, you don't think it at all suspiscious the circumstances surrounding his
death, and just because some ****ing half ass Spanish autopsy says it was
natural, that makes it so?

Can't see what I'm referring to? Here's a closer look:

walshb wrote: »

So, you don't think it at all suspiscious the circumstances surrounding his
death, and just because some ****ing half ass Spanish autopsy says it was
natural, that makes it so?

Is it still a little muddy? One more time for the people in the back:

walshb wrote: »

So, you don't think it at all suspiscious the circumstances surrounding his
death, and just because some ****ing half ass Spanish autopsy says it was
natural, that makes it so?

There you're assuming that he didn't "get a thorough and above board and detailed investigation." What makes you think it was half-assed?

I believe that maybe a second opinion should have been sought. The
whole scene and circumstances and aftermath of the chaps death seemed very rushed in my opinion. All I would say is that maybe folks shouldn't be so quick to accept the verdicts. Yes, they could have got it all correct and right, but from my understanding, the whole situation seemed rushed.

I don't understand what you mean by rushed? How long should it have taken? What steps didn't they take to ensure that the investigation was thorough? Apart from procrastinating, that is.

Juror 8 I am.

Well then you of all people should appreciate the following quote in this context:

It's very hard to keep personal prejudice out of a thing like this. And no matter where you run into it, prejudice obscures the truth.

walshb

And as a moderator maybe you shouldn't be so quick to be implying there is prejudice
involved just because I believe that the whole affair was suspicious. It's hardly prejudicial, or xenophobic or anything else; curious would be a better description.

4zn76tysfajdxp

walshb wrote: »

And as a moderator maybe you shouldn't be so quick to be implying there is prejudice
involved just because I believe that the whole affair was suspicious. It's hardly prejudicial, or xenophobic or anything else; curious would be a better description.

"Voyeuristic" would be an even better one.

walshb

Whatever floats your boat.

drkpower

walshb wrote: »

Did I mention it had to be an Irish person performing the autopsy?

I guess figuring that a second opinion on Stephen's death is creating so much tension, I will let it go.....

More utter dishonesty.

You are questioning the valdity/accuracy/impartiality of the Spanish PM. I am trying to ascertain the basis upon which you are questioning it (because you deny basic prejudice, which appears to be your obvious motivating factor).

1. So again, is it the fact that it was done in Spain that is your problem?
2. Or because it was done in the Spanish health system?
3. Or that it was done by a Spaniard?

Try and answer the questions honestly rather than running away from them.

And your comments re 'I just want a second opinion' is disingenuous also; why a 2nd opinion in this case; unless you want a 2nd opinion/PM in all cases, you have to explain why in this case (I asked you this earlier and you failed to answer).

So again; 4. would you demand a 2nd PM if the peron who died was Irish, died in Ireland, was straight, and the PM was done in Ireland? 5. And if not, what is it about this PM that makes you suspicious (see 3 questions above).

Your attempts to duck and dive these simple questions betray your real motivations here, which a child could see.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

drkpower wrote: »

Yes, it must be the private detective.....;)

Cause it couldnt be his friend, the homophobe, or , ya know, the other guy, the xenophobe.....:D

Amazing the qualifications you need to be modded around here......!

He isn't a mod of this forum, nor that of the LGB forum, or the S&S forum. Like you and me, he is just a normal member in this forum. Mod or not.

walshb wrote: »

And as a moderator maybe you shouldn't be so quick to be implying there is prejudice
involved just because I believe that the whole affair was suspicious. It's hardly prejudicial, or xenophobic or anything else; curious would be a better description.

The problem is, you are seen as being xenophobe by wanting an Irish autopsy. I can see both sides of the debate here.

WalshB believes that the standard of an Irish autopsy (carried out by any nationality) will be higher than that of a foreign autopsy, it would also give the person peace of mind to get that autopsy done in your home country. Which I can understand.

Others think that WalshB wants an autopsy in Ireland because he is Xenophobic. This can make you look prejudice, but, I don't think this is the case here. Assumprions have been made by both sides of the debate too

drkpower

Jamie Polite Menopause wrote: »

He isn't a mod of this forum, nor that of the LGB forum, or the S&S forum. Like you and me, he is just a normal member in this forum. Mod or not.

Nor did I say he was; I just questioned whether one needs to have any critical faculties to be a mod of any forum; it seems he lacks them.

Jamie Polite Menopause wrote: »

WalshB believes that the standard of an Irish autopsy (carried out by any nationality) will be higher than that of a foreign autopsy, it would also give the person peace of mind to get that autopsy done in your home country. Which I can understand.

Others think that WalshB wants an autopsy in Ireland because he is Xenophobic. This can make you look prejudice, but, I don't think this is the case here. Assumprions have been made by both sides of the debate too

:rolleyes:
Believeing the standard of an Irish autopsy (carried out by any nationality) will be higher than that of a foreign autopsy, without any evidence whatsoever to base that on is, by its very nature, a foprm of prejudice/xenophobia.

If I believe that I need to take a bath after eating in a Chinese restaurant because the Chinese are dirty, without any evidence that they are any more dirty than Irish restaurant proprietors, is that a reasonable, non-prejudicial, stance to take?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

drkpower wrote: »

Nor did I say he was; I just questioned whether one needs to have any critical faculties to be a mod of any forum; it seems he lacks them.

What does being a mod have to do with anything really? Like I previously stated, he is not a mod of this forum. He is bound by this forums rules, but he does not need to follow any guidelines because he is a mod, they have their own opinions too, they post just like you or me. Being a mod doesn't change that, especially when you are a mod in a completely differant forum...

:rolleyes:
Believeing the standard of an Irish autopsy (carried out by any nationality) will be higher than that of a foreign autopsy, without any evidence whatsoever to base that on is, by its very nature, a foprm of prejudice/xenophobia.

It's peace of mind. Also, being a part of the PC brigade prevents you from seeing this. Just because he wants an Irish autopsy, doesn't make him a Xenophobe. From his posts, he doesn't imply that he has a fear of foreigners, does he? Especially when it doesn't matter what nationality conducts the autopsy, once it's in Ireland. It's pretty simple to see, just take off your PC blinkers

If I believe that I need to take a bath after eating in a Chinese restaurant because the Chinese are dirty, without any evidence that they are any more dirty than Irish restaurant proprietors, is that a reasonable, non-prejudicial, stance to take?

If he said he didn't want an autopsy because of their nationality, if they were spanish, then that would be xenophobic, but he didn't say that. You are just making assumptions that he is racist/prejudice/xenophobe... You can stop that any time soon, good lad...

dr.bollocko

Jamie Polite Menopause wrote: »

It's peace of mind. Also, being a part of the PC brigade prevents you from seeing this. Just because he wants an Irish autopsy, doesn't make him a Xenophobe. From his posts, he doesn't imply that he has a fear of foreigners, does he? Especially when it doesn't matter what nationality conducts the autopsy, once it's in Ireland. It's pretty simple to see, just take off your PC blinkers

/facepalm.
Wow.
That's about two steps above or below "I'm not a racist but." I haven't figured out which yet.
Get an argument will ya?*


*usage of the terms PC brigade, pinko, leftie, bleeding heart, liberal etc. to back up your point is not an argument. It's a nonsense.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

dr.bollocko wrote: »

/facepalm.
Wow.
That's about two steps above or below "I'm not a racist but." I haven't figured out which yet.
Get an argument will ya?*


*usage of the terms PC brigade, pinko, leftie, bleeding heart, liberal etc. to back up your point is not an argument. It's a nonsense.

Oh? It's not is it? Well if you are blinded and giving biased opinions and making assumptions, then it is very much a valid arguement.

The problem with these debates is one person mentions something like "I rather get a second opinion from an Irish autopsy" and that person is labeled a racist/xenophobe/prejudice.

It works both ways Dr.bollocko.

oceanclub

It's political correctness gone mad! It should be well-known that Spanish people have their organs in different places to Ireland people. Therefore, how could a Spanish Quincy know if Stepho had died of the gays?

I read all this in the Daily Mail

P.

drkpower

Jamie Polite Menopause wrote: »

What does being a mod have to do with anything really? Like I previously stated, he is not a mod of this forum. He is bound by this forums rules, but he does not need to follow any guidelines because he is a mod, they have their own opinions too, they post just like you or me. Being a mod doesn't change that, especially when you are a mod in a completely differant forum......

See above:
Nor did I say he was; I just questioned whether one needs to have any critical faculties to be a mod of any forum; it seems he lacks them.

Jamie Polite Menopause wrote: »

From his posts, he doesn't imply that he has a fear of foreigners, does he? Especially when it doesn't matter what nationality conducts the autopsy, once it's in Ireland. It's pretty simple to see, just take off your PC blinkers If he said he didn't want an autopsy because of their nationality, if they were spanish, then that would be xenophobic, but he didn't say that. You are just making assumptions that he is racist/prejudice/xenophobe... You can stop that any time soon, good lad...

Oh I see, its the weather in Spain that makes the Spanish PMs untrustworthy......:eek: D'uh

Listen, its either the system or the person doing the procedure that he has a problem with - suggesting either the Spanish system is substandard or Spanish pathologists are substandard - either way its prejudiced, based upon no actual evidence/information of any sort.

And for the record, I asked him if a foreigner doing a PM in an irish hospital would be ok - he didnt answer the question.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

drkpower wrote: »

See above:
Nor did I say he was; I just questioned whether one needs to have any critical faculties to be a mod of any forum; it seems he lacks them.

:rolleyes:

Oh I see, its the weather in Spain that makes the Spanish PMs untrustworthy......:eek: D'uh

What the fcuk are you talking about?

Listen, its either the system or the person doing the procedure that he has a problem with - suggesting either the Spanish system is substandard or Spanish pathologists are substandard - either way its prejudiced, based upon no actual evidence/information of any sort.

Like I said earlier, PEACE OF MIND... How hard is that to understand?

And for the record, I asked him if a foreigner doing a PM in an irish hospital would be ok - he didnt answer the question.

A prime example of you reading what you want. The question was answered. Go search for it...

walshb

Jamie Polite Menopause wrote: »

What does being a mod have to do with anything really? Like I previously stated, he is not a mod of this forum. He is bound by this forums rules, but he does not need to follow any guidelines because he is a mod, they have their own opinions too, they post just like you or me. Being a mod doesn't change that, especially when you are a mod in a completely differant forum...




It's peace of mind. Also, being a part of the PC brigade prevents you from seeing this. Just because he wants an Irish autopsy, doesn't make him a Xenophobe. From his posts, he doesn't imply that he has a fear of foreigners, does he? Especially when it doesn't matter what nationality conducts the autopsy, once it's in Ireland. It's pretty simple to see, just take off your PC blinkers



If he said he didn't want an autopsy because of their nationality, if they were spanish, then that would be xenophobic, but he didn't say that. You are just making assumptions that he is racist/prejudice/xenophobe... You can stop that any time soon, good lad...

We rarely agree, but in this instance you have succinctly put together what I was trying to get at. Thanks

I never said that the Irish are the only ones capable; I simply said that
I would have asked for a second opinion from the Irish authorities in this particular case. Also, I clearly said that if I was Spanish, I would probably ask for a second opinion if Gately was my relative, Spanish, died like he did in Ireland and received an autopsy over there.

How anyone can conclude that this somehow makes me prejudiced or xenophobic is plain ridiculous, and reflects ever so badly on the them, not me.

I thought that the whole episode was a wee bit suspect, his death, the investigation and autopsy. This was a young man in his prime. Now, maybe he
did die naturally and all is as they are saying, but am I so mad to think that
the whole episode was a wee bit suspect?

drkpower

Jamie Polite Menopause wrote: »

Like I said earlier, PEACE OF MIND... How hard is that to understand?

Why does one need the peace of mind of a 2nd PM if the PM is done in Spain, but does not need the peace of mind of a 2nd PM if the PM was done in Ireland?

walshb

drkpower wrote: »

Why does one need the peace of mind of a 2nd PM if the PM is done in Spain, but does not need the peace of mind of a 2nd PM if the PM was done in Ireland?

Oh my god, are you deliberately being obtuse.

I do belive I said that EVEN if the original autoposy was carried out
in Irealand and that if I wasn't entirely satisfied with it, I could
call for a second opinion.

Obviously Stephen's parents were happy with everything, they took the Spanish
autopsy at face value, fair enough. I would have wanted an Irish one conducted also; as has been eloquently pointed out to you, peace of mind.

drkpower

walshb wrote: »

I never said that the Irish are the only ones capable; I simply said that
I would have asked for a second opinion from the Irish authorities in this particular case. Also, I clearly said that if I was Spanish, I would probably ask for a second opinion if Gately was my relative, Spanish, died like he did in Ireland and received an autopsy over there.

Why?
What is your rationale for needing a 2nd PM in either case? Unless you want a PM in all cases, you need to explain specifically why you would want one in this case. Which have failed to do thus far.

Would you want a 2nd PM if your relative died in the USA or Australia?
Would you want a 2nd PM if you are from Dublin and your relative died in Cork?