Hate the English??

Fratton Fred

Rondolfus wrote: »

Thats a linguistic issue. Sometimes Irish get mistaken for American or Australian. How often to you mistake Belgians for French? Or Argentinians for Spanish??? Or Austrians for Germans?? I'm struggling to see your point.

Besides, once you say your Irish the reaction of the people in Europe dramatically changes for the better. Every Irish person knows this, and if they are honest they will admit it here!

Exactly. So when some drunken English speaking scum bag in a Liverpool shirt is throwing up in Magaluf, he is obviously English......right?

DoireNod

Resi12 wrote: »

I don't see how Irish people today can hate the English. Our cultures are practically identical.

I can see what you mean, but I don't consider myself and Irish culture practically identical to an English person or English culture. The only culture we really share is the soccer teams, the X-Factor and the English language. There is a separate and distinct Irish culture that is very far removed from any English culture.

Rondolfus wrote: »

Thats a linguistic issue. Sometimes Irish get mistaken for American or Australian. How often to you mistake Belgians for French? Or Argentinians for Spanish??? Or Austrians for Germans?? I'm struggling to see your point.

Besides, once you say your Irish the reaction of the people in Europe dramatically changes for the better. Every Irish person knows this, and if they are honest they will admit it here!

One of my buddies said he was mistaken for being Spanish and South African when he spoke. And yes, I had a positive experience in Germany when I said I was Irish. A friend of mine was being harassed by a big German dude who heard him speaking English. He was accusing us of being English (in German) and I told him to catch himself on and that we couldn't be any less English if we tried. When I told him we were Irish he apologised profusely.

Abigayle wrote: »

Ridiculous thread = ridiculous.

You're just raging. I can't wait to see the 'Hate the Irish???' thread. :P

Dudess

Rondolfus wrote: »

"Ra-heads"??? Who mentioned "ra" heads. This is typical of the small minority of Irish with a nationalistic inferiority complex. They label anybody who shows any pride in Ireland as a "ra head". Pathetic. Besides, "ra heads" say "tiocfaidh ár lá" not "Stop living in the past".

Oh no, I wasn't referring to people who show pride in Ireland, I actually meant 'ra-heads specifically (it's always what springs to mind when I see people saying they "hate the English") - those who can't let the "800 years" thing lie but who would urge forgetting of the past when it comes to e.g. Enniskillen.
I also don't see any evidence here of my having a "nationalistic inferiority complex".

you agreed with my point on British tabloids but immediately jumped to their defence."they're into racially stereotyping lots of nationalities, and are nowhere near as bad as they used to be". Oh thats ok then isn't it lol

Well you actually referred to the British media as a whole, not just the tabloids, and no, they're not as bad as they used to be - I thought it was now which we're referring to?

Resi12

Oh Doirenod our cultures are much more linked than the 'X Factor'.. Really were like a 2nd rate member of the UK.

Basically everything good in this country is derived from england, whether it be tv(Don't attempt to tell me RTE are good) to shops to supermarkets to magazines to news services and even to food, us as a country rely heavily on the UK. Imagine a shopping centre with just Irish shops', it would either be baron or full of ****e.

I sound very anti-Irish here but I'm not, we do have great exports too but not nearly as much as we import. I just dislike when people don't actually realise what the UK has done and still doing for us(Like the EU), sure we have had history but sweet jesus, just leave it go.

robinph

DoireNod wrote: »

I can see what you mean, but I don't consider myself and Irish culture practically identical to an English person or English culture. The only culture we really share is the soccer teams, the X-Factor and the English language. There is a separate and distinct Irish culture that is very far removed from any English culture.

So what exactly is it then that makes the Irish so vastly different from the English?

DoireNod

robinph wrote: »

So what exactly is it then that makes the Irish so vastly different from the English?

I don't think the difference of culture has to be 'vastly different' to make it separate and distinct - which is what I said. Indigenous English culture doesn't include the Irish language, Gaelic games, Irish music, Irish mythology, Celtic religion. That Irish culture is separate and distinct from English culture.

ejmaztec

DoireNod wrote: »

I don't think the difference of culture has to be 'vastly different' to make it separate and distinct - which is what I said. Indigenous English culture doesn't include the Irish language, Gaelic games, Irish music, Irish mythology, Celtic religion. That Irish culture is separate and distinct from English culture.

That's common to both cultures.

DoireNod

ejmaztec wrote: »

That's common to both cultures.

Fair enough. It's basically Druidism, but my point still stands.

robinph

DoireNod wrote: »

I don't think the difference of culture has to be 'vastly different' to make it separate and distinct - which is what I said. Indigenous English culture doesn't include the Irish language, Gaelic games, Irish music, Irish mythology, Celtic religion. That Irish culture is separate and distinct from English culture.

So exactly the same then in pretty much all aspects of our everyday lives, apart from a few things that get rolled out for the tourists to see?

DoireNod

robinph wrote: »

So exactly the same then in pretty much all aspects of our everyday lives, apart from a few things that get rolled out for the tourists to see?

If that's how you see it. Do you think there's a difference in English culture and German culture. How about American culture and and Japanese culture?

Irish culture is different to English culture. Irish people may engage with and indulge in English culture, but that doesn't make Irish culture the same as English culture.

getz

DoireNod wrote: »

If that's how you see it. Do you think there's a difference in English culture and German culture. How about American culture and and Japanese culture?

Irish culture is different to English culture. Irish people may engage with and indulge in English culture, but that doesn't make Irish culture the same as English culture.

there is very little difference between irish culture and english culture, both countries have a celtic background,have celtic sports and music,and also some speak a celtic language,and both countries also have a english culture,please explain to me the difference

ch750536

Greyfox wrote: »

So you're English then and always will be, you should be saying "we" and not "the English"!

Applied for a divorce some time back.

An Fear Aniar

getz wrote: »

there is very little difference between irish culture and english culture, both countries have a celtic background,have celtic sports and music,and also some speak a celtic language,and both countries also have a english culture,please explain to me the difference

I wouldn't say the English have a Celtic background, they're descended from Germanic tribes and, who replaced the earlier Roman British (Celtic) people.

I don't think any European country obsesses so much about its culture as Ireland - most countries don't really talk about it at all. When they use the word "culture" they're referring to the arts, music, opera, theatre etc. They don't rely on it as an indicator of ethnic separateness.

It's all because of the language change in the recent past - I'm sure we'll get over it eventually.

.

LordSutch

DoireNod wrote: »

I don't think the difference of culture has to be 'vastly different' to make it separate and distinct - which is what I said. Indigenous English culture doesn't include the Irish language, Gaelic games, Irish music, Irish mythology, Celtic religion. That Irish culture is separate and distinct from English culture.

To me, Irish culture just seems like a variation on a theme > the same might also be said of Welsh, Scottish & Cornish culture, which are all distinctive from each other, but come under the same wide umbrella which includes English culture & all its many Celtic/ Anglo saxon traditions .........

The differences between Irish culture & English culture really are wafer thin.

getz

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

I wouldn't say the English have a Celtic background, they're descended from Germanic tribes and, who replaced the earlier Roman British (Celtic) people.

I don't think any European country obsesses so much about its culture as Ireland - most countries don't really talk about it at all. When they use the word "culture" they're referring to the arts, music, opera, theatre etc. They don't rely on it as an indicator of ethnic separateness.

It's all because of the language change in the recent past - I'm sure we'll get over it eventually.

.

its a mistake to believe that a few germanic tribes,angles/saxons who only settled in three southern areas of england replaced the celtic population,even in the norman invasion 1066 only a few thousand came to live, the celtic tribes in britain dident run off to ireland all they did was to take on the new masters ways,celtic culture is still stong in england,from the folk singing dancing town and village names,traditions and old celtic words still used,in england there are two celtic languages ,cumbric and cornish,the welsh and the scotts also have a celtic language, the only reason that it is not used more is that unlike the republic the english have not pumped millions into the education system to revive the old ways,plenty of the popular celtic irish culture can be found in any town or city in the uk,for those of us who love it.i find a bigger shift in culture between say newcastle and devon than i see between manchester and dublin

Fratton Fred

DoireNod wrote: »

I can see what you mean, but I don't consider myself and Irish culture practically identical to an English person or English culture. The only culture we really share is the soccer teams, the X-Factor and the English language. There is a separate and distinct Irish culture that is very far removed from any English culture.

I think you are mistaking culture for commercialism. Ireland had embraced the same commercialism that Britain has and to an extent, the same sporting culture. Other than that, yes, the two cultures are different, but both have been overpowered by globalism and commercialism.

DoireNod wrote: »

One of my buddies said he was mistaken for being Spanish and South African when he spoke. And yes, I had a positive experience in Germany when I said I was Irish. A friend of mine was being harassed by a big German dude who heard him speaking English. He was accusing us of being English (in German) and I told him to catch himself on and that we couldn't be any less English if we tried. When I told him we were Irish he apologised profusely.

which backs up what I was saaying earlier, if he didn't talk to you and you were all sat around drinking, acting the bollox and wearing Liverpool or man jersyes, it would have been another black mark against the English.

There are a lot of English people who are nothing short of an embarrassment abroad, but do you not accept that the English will get the blame for anything done by anyone who speaks English?

getz

just read a paper by a DNA geneticist who says that both britain and ireland have been inhabited by a single people for thousands of years,with only minor additions from later invaders,like the celts,romans angles,saxons,vikings, and normans and he says both populations came 6,000 years ago from spain,is this true ?

Evil Phil

getz wrote: »

just read a paper by a DNA geneticist who says that both britain and ireland have been inhabited by a single people for thousands of years,with only minor additions from later invaders,like the celts,romans angles,saxons,vikings, and normans and he says both populations came 6,000 years ago from spain,is this true ?

No. And its their fault our economy failed. Bástards.

getz

Evil Phil wrote: »

No. And its their fault our economy failed. Bástards.

we are all in the same boat mate[thats another thing we have in common] ho and i like your butter

DoireNod

getz wrote: »

there is very little difference between irish culture and english culture, both countries have a celtic background,have celtic sports and music,and also some speak a celtic language,and both countries also have a english culture,please explain to me the difference

Parts of what is now England have a Celtic culture* (not Irish, unless you're in Liverpool or Kilburn!), but for the most part, English culture historically, has been predominantly Anglo-Saxon and Norman and eventually 'English'. I've already explained, broadly speaking, what I see to be the differences and in any case, I've said that I don't think there needs to be a big difference for something to be separate and distinct in its own right. I don't think I need to elaborate further.

*Note I haven't ever treated Celtic culture and Irish culture to be one and the same.

Camelot wrote: »

To me, Irish culture just seems like a variation on a theme > the same might also be said of Welsh, Scottish & Cornish culture, which are all distinctive from each other, but come under the same wide umbrella which includes English culture & all its many Celtic/ Anglo saxon traditions .........

Fair point, but it's a variation nonetheless.

The differences between Irish culture & English culture really are wafer thin.

Irish culture is still separate and distinct from English culture, which is what I've been saying.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I think you are mistaking culture for commercialism. Ireland had embraced the same commercialism that Britain has and to an extent, the same sporting culture. Other than that, yes, the two cultures are different, but both have been overpowered by globalism and commercialism.

Good point.

which backs up what I was saaying earlier, if he didn't talk to you and you were all sat around drinking, acting the bollox and wearing Liverpool or man jersyes, it would have been another black mark against the English.

There are a lot of English people who are nothing short of an embarrassment abroad, but do you not accept that the English will get the blame for anything done by anyone who speaks English?

I don't dispute that. It's a fair point.

Rondolfus

Camelot wrote: »

To me, Irish culture just seems like a variation on a theme > the same might also be said of Welsh, Scottish & Cornish culture, which are all distinctive from each other, but come under the same wide umbrella which includes English culture & all its many Celtic/ Anglo saxon traditions .........

The differences between Irish culture & English culture really are wafer thin.

I don't agree. Celtic/Anglo Saxon is a pretty big umbrella that would also include parts of France, Germany and Spain to name but a few. It is not a valid category to make comparisons.

It is convenient for certain people to compare Irish and British cultures becuase they are the only two nations in Europe that speak English as their first langauge.

In reality (language apart), there is as much difference between Ireland and the UK as their is between Spain and Italy.

Yes Irish people watch British TV. Its accessible. This is not the same as sharing its culture. Everybody (including) the British watch American tv. This does not mean, they share American culture.

Irish poetry and literature has always been distinct from British. It uses different language forms and deals with different themes.

Traditional Irish music is also vastly different from English traditional music, which is actually very closely linked to Germanic traditions.

People seem to be mixing up the effects of Globilisation, with cultural similarities. Globilisation is being driven by America, not Britain. You'll find that the majority of modern similarites between Ireland and the UK, originated from the USA.

Ireland shares a climate with the UK so people look and dress the same. The Irish also speak the English langauge. Anybody who mistakes these things as culture, are selling the Irish short. Ireland has a rich and unnique culture. If you have failed to notice this I feel sorry for you.

Rondolfus

getz wrote: »

just read a paper by a DNA geneticist who says that both britain and ireland have been inhabited by a single people for thousands of years,with only minor additions from later invaders,like the celts,romans angles,saxons,vikings, and normans and he says both populations came 6,000 years ago from spain,is this true ?

The world has been inhabited by a single people for even longer with only very minor additions from alien invaders from outerspace. Yet it still contains many different cultures.

Such papers are common and disputed. Even if it were true, it still means nothing.

getz

rondolfus we will have to agree to differ,much of the irish culture you see today has been a goverment over the top re-invented culture, a lot different from pre 1920,there is no argument about that,pushed by schools and religion with financial backing.

ejmaztec

getz wrote: »

rondolfus we will have to agree to differ,much of the irish culture you see today has been a goverment over the top re-invented culture, a lot different from pre 1920,there is no argument about that,pushed by schools and religion with financial backing.

That was a natural progression, given that over the centuries, most of it had been watered down or washed away entirely.

Thank God the Morris-dancers kept away from here.

Fratton Fred

ejmaztec wrote: »

That was a natural progression, given that over the centuries, most of it had been watered down or washed away entirely.

Thank God the Morris-dancers kept away from here.

there were some at Dundrum the other week. I onlt moved here to get away from them:D

LordSutch

Rondolfus wrote: »

I don't agree. Celtic/Anglo Saxon is a pretty big umbrella that would also include parts of France, Germany and Spain to name but a few. It is not a valid category to make comparisons.

I was refering to the Celtic/Anglo saxon traditions within Britain & Ireland (Ire/Eng/Scot/Wales).

Rondolfus wrote: »

It is convenient for certain people to compare Irish and British cultures becuase they are the only two nations in Europe that speak English as their first langauge.

It is not just convienent to compare Irish & British culture with each other, because the two cultures are so similar & so intertwined as to be virtually identical (apart from a regional difference) eg; Northern England/ Southern Ireland, the similarities have been mentioned many times before, from the Irish love affair with English Premiership football to Fish & Chips & everything else in between.

Rondolfus wrote: »

In reality (language apart), there is as much difference between Ireland and the UK as their is between Spain and Italy.

The very term 'UK' encompases part of this island along with Scotland, England & Wales, so of course there is a strong similarity between Irish/British/ English/ Scottish/ Welsh cultures > we are all connected!

Rondolfus wrote: »

Yes Irish people watch British TV. Its accessible. This is not the same as sharing its culture. Everybody (including) the British watch American tv. This does not mean, they share American culture.

You are despirately trying to pretend that we are as similar to US culture as we are to British culture, sorry mate, 'it doesn't wash' we are were we are globally (24 miles from the island next door), part of this island is in the UK, and our blood lines are so intertwined with Britain & England as to make little difference. (just ask Ryan Tubridy)

Rondolfus wrote: »

Irish poetry and literature has always been distinct from British. It uses different language forms and deals with different themes.

Yes, Irish poetry, like Welsh poetry or Yorkshire clog dancing has a regional theme, but that doesn't mean that Irish culture is alien to English/British culture

Rondolfus wrote: »

Traditional Irish music is also vastly different from English traditional music, which is actually very closely linked to Germanic traditions.

Now I have been at English trad music events in the past, and I can honestly say that a lot of English Trad music is very similar to Irish Trad music, and in some cases the two are interlinked, (yes there are diffenences) but the British/Irish/English trad music scene is very connected.

Rondolfus wrote: »

Ireland shares a climate with the UK so people look and dress the same. The Irish also speak the English langauge. Anybody who mistakes these things as culture, are selling the Irish short. Ireland has a rich and unnique culture. If you have failed to notice this I feel sorry for you.

Yes indeed, Ireland shares its climate with the rest of the British isles, yes the Irish dress the same as their counterparts up North & in Britain too, and I say again, our culture is under the same cultural umbrella as the rest of these islands. and if you have failed to see this 'I feel very sorry for you'.

Maybe you have never travelled or lived in Britain? which might explain your narrow view of our very strong similarities with the British & 'the English'. I certainly can't think of a reason to 'Hate' the English ............

stovelid

I've stringently analyzed the cultural output of Britain and Ireland from two arbitrary time periods (1970 and 1969) and it's abundantly clear that we are unique.

What's with all the Brit lovers here?

Tiocfaidh Ar Lar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zcz1uW5DkEk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSIGLhBQT4M

ejmaztec

Fratton Fred wrote: »

there were some at Dundrum the other week. I onlt moved here to get away from them:D

Oh sh1t:eek:,time to man the barricades beyond the pale.

getz

ejmaztec wrote: »

That was a natural progression, given that over the centuries, most of it had been watered down or washed away entirely.

Thank God the Morris-dancers kept away from here.

you have clog dancing dont you ? and brass bands and bowler hats, how british is that,and in ireland us brits have our own ethnic shops ie tesco take it from me, there is nowt you do that we dont,we even eat black pudding for go sake[BURY invention]

ejmaztec

stovelid wrote: »

I've stringently analyzed the cultural output of Britain and Ireland from two arbitrary time periods (1970 and 1969) and it's abundantly clear that we are unique.

What's with all the Brit lovers here?

Tiocfaidh Ar Lar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zcz1uW5DkEk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSIGLhBQT4M

Two different celts, one loud and one not quiet enough.