Ultra Street Fighter 4 Discussion Thread

Azza

Kanped wrote:

After DoC in January, I did a bit of reading about ST (never actually played it again) and in that game, Honda had a real chance against fireball characters for the most part, thanks to his negative edge charge storing and sumo-splash from a normal jump. Again, for the most part, against non-fireball characters, he seems pretty broken, though.

Honda was very bad against fireball characters in ST. No idea what you where reading to suggest otherwise. Probably more so than SF4.

Azza

Akuma nerfs.

20 Less damage on Demon Flip throw.
C.HK 1 frame slower start up.
4 more recovery frames on air fireball.

That's it.

chopperbyrne

If Akuma had a five frame startup DP and a teleport range of Evil Ryu, it'd be a start.

At least he could be safe jumped and OS'd to catch teleports.

Doctor DooM

I don't think Akuma needs to be nerfed heavily, it takes a bit of work to make him dangerous.

Fergus_

Honda and Rose is pretty even and Honda beats Sakura.

Although they don't really have the traditional fireball zoning, still throwing it out there.

chopperbyrne

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I don't think Akuma needs to be nerfed heavily, it takes a bit of work to make him dangerous.

I don't think he should have his offensive options nerfed, but at the moment, he has the best offensive and defensive options.

At least make it so that if you do get a hard knockdown on him you can pressure him properly.

Doyler01

chopperbyrne wrote: »

If Akuma had a five frame startup DP and a teleport range of Evil Ryu, it'd be a start.

At least he could be safe jumped and OS'd to catch teleports.

This would be a start? And where would you go from there?

chopperbyrne

Didn't mean to write that to be honest.

I explained later that I wouldn't nerf his offensive options.

Nutrient

Akuma takes lots of work to use though and doesn't have enough vitality to make more then one mistake

If he has a weakness it's perfect play, 1,2major mistakes and you lose with him

I'm sure he can stand to take a small nerf or 2 but anything major will wreck him imo

ladnopoka

1 mistake against akuma and u get vortexed to death

Doctor DooM

ladnopoka wrote: »

1 mistake against akuma and u get vortexed to death

1 combo on akuma and he loses 40%, he's almost balanced that way.

K.O.Kiki

But Teleport gets him out of like 99% of situations for free, after which he can start his BS all over again...

liamnojo92

Doctor DooM

http://www.capcom-unity.com/combofiend/blog/2013/04/02/street-fighter-character-poll-results

Breakin' it down-

Q is more popular than Guile in Japan! in fact, he's top 10 overall.

Japanese have a soft spot for rarely seen young girl characters (who would have thought)with R Mika, Karin, and even Ingrid showing up in top 10.

The shotos are mad popular. I know, I had to sit down before that one myself.

Of interest to me, Guile hovers around the top 10.

Charlie is more popular than Fei Long. YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO CAPCOM

Remy somehow got about 1% of the vote. PLEASE DONT CAPCOM

JustShon

Shotos popular? No way.

Monkeyto

Since Japan doesn't have Capcommunity they are doing the feedback process in a different angle.

Basically, players who want to give feedback have to provide details through a form on the official Capcom website. However if they want to, they can also provide their BP ranking from their IC card (the card which players use at the arcades), which I guess is meant to provide some weight behind your feedback.

There's pluses and minuses from this idea since unless you play a lot (and I do mean A LOT) you're not gonna get to Grand Master rank anytime soon. OR you can lie since I doubt they will track every card stat.

Danonino.

Q in Street Fighter 4 would be awesome.

FutureGuy

I'm expecting little/no Deejay buffs but hoping for nerfs for everyone else!

FutureGuy

I have a particular disdain for the online FIFA community in general given their penchant for acting the moron.

SSF4AE ranked came pretty close last night.

TheMikenyan

I made this post in the Cody thread yesterday, but it got no responses or feedback, and the thread is now locked. Care to comment? I just want to know whether it was actually a sensible suggestion or completely off the rails.
http://www.capcom-unity.com/street_fighter/go/thread/view/7411/29831841/cody-balance-suggestions?post_num=267#530986431

The one major suggestion I have concerns Ultra 2. A lot have people have already pointed out that Cody is extremely unsafe if it hits an opponent in the air or during a backdash, and how unfair it is that he gets punished for correctly landing the move. However, I don't believe that it should simply be modified so that the rest of the Ultra connects and juggles. My reasoning for why can be seen at 05:30 in the following video:

Currently, Ultra 2 combos from non-EX Criminal Upper. Since it drops airborne opponents after the dust cloud, it's extremely unsafe to do, and only serves to finish off a low-health opponent, as above. If this were to be changed so that Ultra 2 juggles after hitting in the air, it would become *extremely* overpowered. It would become possible to combo Ultra 2 from Criminal Upper from very long strings at zero meter cost; this alone would render Ultra 1 obselete, as for the mostpart it requires FADC to combo into and has very little usage outside of that due to its slow startup. Ultra 2 on the other hand is already projectile-invincible and usable as a wakeup attack, and has higher base damage than Ultra 1; this this change, it would do everything Ultra 1 can and more, and would be better at it too.

Simply removing this link wouldn't be a viable solution to this problem, as that would involve adding more startup to Ultra 2, or adding more recovery to Criminal Upper, both of which would be harmful to Cody. Instead, my suggestion is modify Ultra 2 so that if the dust cloud hits an airborne target, it does not follow through with the rest of the attack (i.e. the wrench or piper followups) - similar to the way certain attacks don't transition to their cutscene portion when certain active frames don't connect (like Ryu's Ultra 2), or require the opponent to be on their feet during the hit (like Fei Long's Ultra 1). This would allow Cody to use Ultra 2 as an anti-air and be safe on hit, but ensure that it can't be used brainlessly as a high damage anti-air, and also prevent it from being abused by simply attaching it to any given combo for a massive damage bonus.

I'm not sure whether the followup should also be disabled on block, or whether it should stay as it is, so I'll leave that one open to debate, but overall, I think this would be a pretty good way to balance Ultra 2.

Dreddybajs

Cody doesn't need any buffs, ultra 2 is great as is.

OdgeXD

zUkUu pointed out exactly everything Cody needs, it was the perfect post in regards to the character.

The Hound

OdgeXD wrote: »

zUkUu pointed out exactly everything Cody needs, it was the perfect post in regards to the character.

What did zUkUu Post up. Can someone please link or post what his opnions for cody are without me looking through the Cody forum and get annoyed

OdgeXD

Cody lacks defense options more than anything else. He can be bullied for free, in particular on wake up. His neutral game isn't that strong to make up for that disadvantage.

These are the top 3 buffs that would help him the most to be a better character overall:

-Better Backdash
This is a no brainer. A slight increase in range and/or shorter duration, would help him in specific situations. As it stands, his backdash is barely an option, since it covers no distance and is easily punished by everything. Paired with his slow backwalkspeed, it's very difficult for Cody to get some breathing room on the ground.

-EX Criminal Upper: Strike invincibility up to the first active frame (since EX Zonk is a terrible design)
Currently it has only a few strike invulnerability frames, making it useless as reversal. EX Zonk is the ONLY move Cody can rely on, but EX Zonk is a TERRIBLE design choice due to many reasons:

-You lose 2 Buttons. That is the biggest penalty ANY reversal in the game has. Not only do you lose normals, but along also command normals (b.MP anti air, f.HP overhead, f.MP pressure) AND you also lose the ability to Tech throws, or Focus.
-Despite that it costs 1 Meter
-Despite that it is one of the slowest reversals with 16F start up in the game
-Despite that you have to "charge it", thus making it impossible to use on reaction

The move just doesn't work well and fails to replace his "Alpha Counter" from Street Fighter Alpha. That is why it either needs a command change (From "p charge" to PPP / KKK ala Lariat, or any other input) or we need a viable substitution: EX Criminal Upper.

Increasing the strike invincibility of EX Criminal Upper would make it a proper reversal that can be used on reaction, without sacrificing almost all our utility. It costs a meter and is still unsafe on block, so it wouldn't affect the overall balance much. This would help Cody the most to be more viable and consistent, without having to rely on a gimmicky defense.

-EX Ruffian Kick: Projectile invincibility from frame 1 (or Armor)
In the current version, EX Ruffian Kick has to be somewhat guessed to be able to hit an opponent that throws a fireball. It's hard to use it at anything but almost full screen (where it often doesn't hit) to react to a fireball, since you'll be simply hit out of it during the start up. Covering the early frames as well, would give Cody, who is one of the slower character to deal with zoning properly at the expense of an meter. The move has currently just almost no use. Again, this would make Cody a lot more reliable since you don't have to take risks by throwing it out on a good guess. Otherwise, giving it 1 Armor (ala EX Punches form Balrog) could also fulfill the role. It would mean it loses to EX Fireballs, but also make it viable to catch limbs.


Secondary changes that would slightly improve his gameplan:


-Ultra 2: Safe against airborne opponent:
That the pipe hits whiff against an airborne juggled opponent after the dust (and therefore the cinematic) is okay, but you shouldn't be punished for correctly reacting to your opponents jump in. Simply making the pipe animation stop after the first hit "whiffs" would let Cody recover in time before the opponent recovers from his knockdown. If the first pipe hit is blocked the ultra behaves normally and does the other two as well, leaving him as punishable as he should be for using the ultra incorrectly. This would also allow him to use the Ultra in combos for a very slight damage increase (since only the dust hits) without being widely open afterwards.

-Fake Bad Stone: Shorten overall duration or make it "block"-cancelable (like Knife Pick up)
The benefit over just throwing a normal rock is very small. It's the slowest feint in the game and has therefore barely a reason to be used. Making its duration shorter overall, or cancelable by at least blocking, would mean much to his footsie shenanigans.

-Crack Kick (f.HK): Better hurt box / airborne
It's one of the tools Cody should make use of, but is often just no option since the move has a very bad hurtbox and is somewhat slow. It get's beaten by almost every low in the game, despite "hopping" over them. Making it low-invulnerable by lifting the hurtbox would make it a proper option in our offense.

-HK Ruffian: Shorter recovery or usable on crouching opponent
A shorter recovery would mean we could follow it up easier after using it against badly timed jump ins and trades.
Making it usable on crouching opponent would mean we could trade meter for additional damage against a crouching opponent.

-s.MK better as poke
If the hit box is increased and/or the start up faster, it could be a viable poke. Currently Cody has only a very slow s.HK and a somewhat short c.LK as pokes. The missing of a real "crouching mk" is very noticeable.

-Reducing crouching MK's recovery
Removing 1 or 2 frames of its recovery would make it a better tool to use.

-LP Criminal Upper: Slightly safer on block (-5 -> -3)
There is just no reason to use LP or MP version of Criminal Upper. It's a combo only move, so the start up doesn't matter. Buffing LP Criminal Upper's frame advantage would give it a purpose:A block string ender. Cody currently has none, since everything is either heavily unsafe or way to slow (Rocks). It would not affect him much, but give him a new option. It would act like Ryu's c.MK xx Hadoken on block and would give Cody any sort of chip damage potential. c.LK xx LP Criminal Upper has a gap on block where he can be reversaled in between, just like Ryu's hadoken.
Making it -3 would make him lose his momentum, but be reasonable safe against punishes - a fair trade off.

-LP / MP Bad Stone -Adding a higher "arc":
In Alpha 3, his Bad Stone also cover a bit of horizontal space since they fly in an arc. Retaining this property to SF4 would make him a way more interesting character. LP Bad Stone has no reach and could therefore have a reasonable high arc. MP flies further away and should have a lower arc. HP Bad Stone almost hits fullscreen and can remain the same (so does EX).



BUG FIXES (not buffs)
-Cody's crouching knife attacks are considered "standing" attacks. That means that he can be hit by "standing only" moves ala Lariat (later hits), High Tiger shot and various other moves.
-Cody's b.MP is unable to counter hit
-Cody's far s.MK and far s.MK while holding the knife have different size hurtboxs and hitboxes.
-Cody's Super regularly drops the opponent out of a clean hit.
-Cody's Badspray from a face up knockdown has 20F more recovery than his Badspray from a face down knockdown.

Bento Sento

I think one of the mods should move this thread into the capcom unity forums.

TheMikenyan

So he actually agreed with me to an extent in that wall of text monstrosity. Whoopee.

Danonino.

Starting to look forward to what changes Guy will get. Combofiend is one of the only top players I've seen in a major playing Guy regularly (well he used to) so I'm happy there is a Top player who knows where the character is lacking getting some input. Personally I thought:

Bushin flip to elbow drop should do Chip damage. Its the only special move in the game that doesn't. Even 8-10 chip would do.

Ultra 1 Should have the hitbox extended on the second punch, it should never whiff if the first landed.

Neutral jump HK should always hit twice and cause higher float with 0 or 1 juggle count air to air, Would allow HK tatsu (4 hits) as a finish far more consistently and more importantly give Guy Full Ultra 1 in the corner. At the moment the move is close to useless.

Ninja Sickle should either be immune to throws or lows. Personally I'd Rather a quicker start up, it should force stand on hit (meaning both hits should always land) and for it to give higher float and less pushback on hit.

Bushin Chain should not add to the juggle count, Guys combos are needlessly shortened due to it. Hk tatsu would hit 4 times after a bushin chain like it should. You could also bushin chain, ex hozanto fadc (anything you want). There really is no reason for it to add to the juggle count, its not a special, and it adds massively to combo scaling..

Ex Run Stop should have armour on the auto stop animation. Its a issue (mostly online) where if you delayed the second lk too long you will touch the opponents hitbox and go into auto stop. This is the exact same animation as command stop and as far as I know has no frame differences yet gains no armour due to being activated by touching the opponent rather than pressing lk. If I ex run and didn't slide or overhead I most definitely don't intend to hug my opponent at huge frame disadvantage for no reason. Always give the stop one armour hit if coming from ex run?

But if only one thing gets changed:

MP-HP Target Combo. Seriously fix it whiffing on a feckton of the cast. Please...

bush

OdgeXD wrote: »

Cody lacks defense options more than anything else. He can be bullied for free, in particular on wake up. His neutral game isn't that strong to make up for that disadvantage.

These are the top 3 buffs that would help him the most to be a better character overall:

-Better Backdash
This is a no brainer. A slight increase in range and/or shorter duration, would help him in specific situations. As it stands, his backdash is barely an option, since it covers no distance and is easily punished by everything. Paired with his slow backwalkspeed, it's very difficult for Cody to get some breathing room on the ground.

-EX Criminal Upper: Strike invincibility up to the first active frame (since EX Zonk is a terrible design)
Currently it has only a few strike invulnerability frames, making it useless as reversal. EX Zonk is the ONLY move Cody can rely on, but EX Zonk is a TERRIBLE design choice due to many reasons:

-You lose 2 Buttons. That is the biggest penalty ANY reversal in the game has. Not only do you lose normals, but along also command normals (b.MP anti air, f.HP overhead, f.MP pressure) AND you also lose the ability to Tech throws, or Focus.
-Despite that it costs 1 Meter
-Despite that it is one of the slowest reversals with 16F start up in the game
-Despite that you have to "charge it", thus making it impossible to use on reaction

The move just doesn't work well and fails to replace his "Alpha Counter" from Street Fighter Alpha. That is why it either needs a command change (From "p charge" to PPP / KKK ala Lariat, or any other input) or we need a viable substitution: EX Criminal Upper.

Increasing the strike invincibility of EX Criminal Upper would make it a proper reversal that can be used on reaction, without sacrificing almost all our utility. It costs a meter and is still unsafe on block, so it wouldn't affect the overall balance much. This would help Cody the most to be more viable and consistent, without having to rely on a gimmicky defense.

-EX Ruffian Kick: Projectile invincibility from frame 1 (or Armor)
In the current version, EX Ruffian Kick has to be somewhat guessed to be able to hit an opponent that throws a fireball. It's hard to use it at anything but almost full screen (where it often doesn't hit) to react to a fireball, since you'll be simply hit out of it during the start up. Covering the early frames as well, would give Cody, who is one of the slower character to deal with zoning properly at the expense of an meter. The move has currently just almost no use. Again, this would make Cody a lot more reliable since you don't have to take risks by throwing it out on a good guess. Otherwise, giving it 1 Armor (ala EX Punches form Balrog) could also fulfill the role. It would mean it loses to EX Fireballs, but also make it viable to catch limbs.


Secondary changes that would slightly improve his gameplan:


-Ultra 2: Safe against airborne opponent:
That the pipe hits whiff against an airborne juggled opponent after the dust (and therefore the cinematic) is okay, but you shouldn't be punished for correctly reacting to your opponents jump in. Simply making the pipe animation stop after the first hit "whiffs" would let Cody recover in time before the opponent recovers from his knockdown. If the first pipe hit is blocked the ultra behaves normally and does the other two as well, leaving him as punishable as he should be for using the ultra incorrectly. This would also allow him to use the Ultra in combos for a very slight damage increase (since only the dust hits) without being widely open afterwards.

-Fake Bad Stone: Shorten overall duration or make it "block"-cancelable (like Knife Pick up)
The benefit over just throwing a normal rock is very small. It's the slowest feint in the game and has therefore barely a reason to be used. Making its duration shorter overall, or cancelable by at least blocking, would mean much to his footsie shenanigans.

-Crack Kick (f.HK): Better hurt box / airborne
It's one of the tools Cody should make use of, but is often just no option since the move has a very bad hurtbox and is somewhat slow. It get's beaten by almost every low in the game, despite "hopping" over them. Making it low-invulnerable by lifting the hurtbox would make it a proper option in our offense.

-HK Ruffian: Shorter recovery or usable on crouching opponent
A shorter recovery would mean we could follow it up easier after using it against badly timed jump ins and trades.
Making it usable on crouching opponent would mean we could trade meter for additional damage against a crouching opponent.

-s.MK better as poke
If the hit box is increased and/or the start up faster, it could be a viable poke. Currently Cody has only a very slow s.HK and a somewhat short c.LK as pokes. The missing of a real "crouching mk" is very noticeable.

-Reducing crouching MK's recovery
Removing 1 or 2 frames of its recovery would make it a better tool to use.

-LP Criminal Upper: Slightly safer on block (-5 -> -3)
There is just no reason to use LP or MP version of Criminal Upper. It's a combo only move, so the start up doesn't matter. Buffing LP Criminal Upper's frame advantage would give it a purpose:A block string ender. Cody currently has none, since everything is either heavily unsafe or way to slow (Rocks). It would not affect him much, but give him a new option. It would act like Ryu's c.MK xx Hadoken on block and would give Cody any sort of chip damage potential. c.LK xx LP Criminal Upper has a gap on block where he can be reversaled in between, just like Ryu's hadoken.
Making it -3 would make him lose his momentum, but be reasonable safe against punishes - a fair trade off.

-LP / MP Bad Stone -Adding a higher "arc":
In Alpha 3, his Bad Stone also cover a bit of horizontal space since they fly in an arc. Retaining this property to SF4 would make him a way more interesting character. LP Bad Stone has no reach and could therefore have a reasonable high arc. MP flies further away and should have a lower arc. HP Bad Stone almost hits fullscreen and can remain the same (so does EX).



BUG FIXES (not buffs)
-Cody's crouching knife attacks are considered "standing" attacks. That means that he can be hit by "standing only" moves ala Lariat (later hits), High Tiger shot and various other moves.
-Cody's b.MP is unable to counter hit
-Cody's far s.MK and far s.MK while holding the knife have different size hurtboxs and hitboxes.
-Cody's Super regularly drops the opponent out of a clean hit.
-Cody's Badspray from a face up knockdown has 20F more recovery than his Badspray from a face down knockdown.

Not looking for much are you?

raah!

They'd better buff the hell out of that steaming pile that is gouken. I wrote a load of crap on srk about possible buffs, but then had not the patience to go and post the same thing on capcom unity.

I think the game will be very very balanced if all they do is a few small buffs on the weaker chars but not too many nerfs on the top tier ones.

The Hound

raah! wrote: »

They'd better buff the hell out of that steaming pile that is gouken. I wrote a load of crap on srk about possible buffs, but then had not the patience to go and post the same thing on capcom unity.

I think the game will be very very balanced if all they do is a few small buffs on the weaker chars but not too many nerfs on the top tier ones.

Just copy and paste it all from your srk post. Can you link your changes in here plz?