Ultra Street Fighter 4 Discussion Thread

ladnopoka

IIII Easy IIII wrote: »

I could name 5 players who play each of all those top-tier characters you listed, you missed the point I was trying to make, there are hardly any Adon players because he is neither op nor top tier, if you think he is then why doesn't anyone play him?

i can go to leaderboards and list 100 players for every character

Kanped

you missed the point I was trying to make

No, I refuted the point you were trying to make. There aren't 3 players who consistently win tournaments for many, if any characters. That's what your entire argument is based on and it doesn't matter, even if there were. You can judge a character methodically by looking at their options, strengths, weaknesses etc. ; there's no need to resort to the anecdotal evidence you're using.

chopperbyrne

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Think he's got you, Chopper; what was the last tourney you entered?

It was recent enough. Multi-game tournament in the Clarence hotel.

DoC 8 in January.

IIII Easy IIII

Kanped wrote: »

No, I refuted the point you were trying to make. There aren't 3 players who consistently win tournaments for many, if any characters. That's what your entire argument is based on and it doesn't matter, even if there were. You can judge a character methodically by looking at their options, strengths, weaknesses etc. ; there's no need to resort to the anecdotal evidence you're using.

OK, I'll be a bit clearer, This is a "discussion thread" afterall, not an argument thread... what I'm really trying to get across is - Adon is ASS!!! But this 2013 patch is coming up and Capcom have asked the "community" (online warriors)to suggest the changes that should be made and when Adon's time is up then loads of people are gonna whine and say nerf Adon, when in fact- He is ASS!!! The "anecdotal evidence" I was using is this - Watch any tournament streamed for version 2012, and count the amount of Adon players compared to any other character used, Hell, there are more T.Hawk players than Adon players, why? because Adon is ASS!!! but seeing as this discussion thread brought up the 2013 patch and someone mentioned Adon, I put in my two cents and said Adons Jagga is not as good as everyone seems to think and that simply changing it from -2 to neutral ON HIT would be nice to see in this balance patch. Hate on Adon and suggest to Capcom that he be nerfed because online warriors can't deal with him but remember this.... Adon is ASS!!! If people wanna talk **** then go comment on youtube videos but I for one would like to read educated comments on this forum and thread.

stev0knev022

Somebodys ass allright, i wouldnt be so sure it's adon.

JustShon

IIII Easy IIII wrote: »

*snip*

That's still anecdotal evidence. Adon not being used in tournaments is not evidence of him being a bad character; there are many possible explanations for a character's absence from the tournament scene. Now I'm not going to say one way or the other whether Adon is a bad or good character because I'm really new to the scene and couldn't give any kind of educated opinion but whether you're right or wrong your logic is still flawed.

Kanped

Instant air jaguar kick is neutral on hit, though and most characters can't punish in 2 frames, anyway. It's just a matter of knowing the matchups, and in the matchups where it IS punishable, I feel that it's reasonable.
He has a decent amount of vitality, can do completely safe pressure with air Jaguar kicks, a good DP, combo-able/ projectile beating ultras, easy hit confirms and really good normals. He has good options, basically, against the entire cast with, as far as I can tell, no really bad matchups. Is he top tier? Probably not, since he would really need a vortex setup for that, I think but he's definitely a solid high-mid. In saying all of that, is there really that much of a call to nerf him? I think the general consensus is that he's pretty much fine.

chopperbyrne

Adon is a very good character and arguably top 5.

He has a great set of normals, good walk speed, great forward dash, good air mobility and a good DP.

He has good safe jump and ambiguous cross-up setups.

Regular Jaguar Kick can only be punished on hit by Zangief and T. Hawk's SPD's and anyone with a command grab Ultra as a reversal (Probably Chun's Super too). It is an armour breaker however so is very good pressure tool against the vast majority of the cast.

Anyone who plays Adon should know how to consistently perform IAJK's, which can be combo'd from.

To say he's ass is a ridiculous statement.

K.O.Kiki

I mained Adon from Super to AE2012.

Quick thoughts:

Adon is not, nor has he ever been, total ass -- he's just in that "still relatively good, but has problems in certain matchups/situations" area.

His normals are mostly fast & safe, he has 4 good AA normals (far. HP, cr.HP, far.MK & far.HK) and his st.HK is possibly 2nd-best. On the flip-side however he doesn't have easy or high-damage hitconfirms, so during footsies he'll either just hit you a few times (unlike Cammy/Fei/Ryu, who can score easy knockdowns) or try for chip with Jaguar Kicks. Also, they are 1f links, so screw up and you might eat a mashed SRK FADC Ultra (just like Gamerbee did vs. Daigo).

The problem with Jaguar Kicks is that they are slow (20f+), can be hit by fast pokes / shoryus, or made to whiff with low slide attacks, and leave him at disadvantage on hit, so while scrubs may THINK it's safe pressure, it's really more of a mindfúck.
Also they are a free SPD or Ultra to 1/2f moves. On hit. ON HIT!

This means one of your main chip tools is unavailable against the 2 guys with the highest health.

iAJK is plus ON HIT, neutral ON BLOCK, but the timing is stricter than Cammy divekicks.

Kanped

I thought he could low short x2 into dp? Isn't that an easy hit-confirm?

IIII Easy IIII

cr.lk x 2 or even 3 into dp is possible depending which dp you use but still 2 frame links! iajk is a much better pressure tool than regular jk but mistime that by one or two frames and you'll either get a jag tooth or a jump normal, walk speed and pokes are good yes, and very ambiguous crossups but when it comes to stamina, hit confirms and damage, naw.... damn near everything he does has to be linked rather than cancelled. maybe the reason he's not used in the tournament scene is because of this and ppl can't be arsed to put in the time to practice links? anyway, version 2013 - all I want for my character is for jk not to be -2 on hit. don't think he deserves any nerfs honestly. anyone else nervous/optimistic for their characters? I'm calling Dudley, Gief and Yang for top tier 2013....

Speed Boat

IIII Easy IIII wrote: »

maybe the reason he's not used in the tournament scene is because of this and ppl can't be arsed to put in the time to practice links?

I still hear this a lot from people with regards characters and tiers.

Top players hit their links pretty much all the time. I think this late in the games life difficulty of links isn't a factor anymore.

Kanped

Nah, Dudley IS trash. Yang buffs would be interesting but I dunno, most people don't know the character well enough to judge it, I think. Honda (my main) should be fine as long as they ignore all the 'advice' they've received (why everyone is calling exclusively for nerfs on a mid-tier character is beyond me.

2 frame links... I mean, that should be fine, if you practice them. I know, I main Honda and basically never do links and I can't talk but 2 frame links really shouldn't be difficult. Hmm... actually, I can hit EX hands to jab hands pretty consistently and that's a 1 frame unplinkable link.

IIII Easy IIII

Honda's pretty solid as is imo, Only change I'd expect for him is less startup on U2

Kanped

Yeah, U2 is unusable right now and U1 isn't very good. I would take 100 less damage on U1 in exchange for faster startup to make catching projectiles easier. It's probably a bit too good but projectile invulnerability on light sumo splash would be very useful, too but he doesn't really need it.

K.O.Kiki

Kanped wrote: »

I thought he could low short x2 into dp? Isn't that an easy hit-confirm?

Little range, low damage, 2 fast hits (harder to hitconfirm), 2f link (4f execution, +5f on hit) and IIRC if you go too fast, the game registers it as a chain and won't let you special-cancel.

Speed Boat

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

IIRC if you go too fast, the game registers it as a chain and won't let you special-cancel.

Just practice.

K.O.Kiki

Speed Boat wrote: »

Just practice.

Why practice when I can pick Cammy? :cool:

liamnojo92

Lot's of characters have 2 frame bnb's,fei has to use a 1 frame bnb on a lot of characters.

GorySnake

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Little range, low damage, 2 fast hits (harder to hitconfirm), 2f link (4f execution, +5f on hit) and IIRC if you go too fast, the game registers it as a chain and won't let you special-cancel.

His c.lk isnt chainable, so that's a plinkable 2f link

Danonino.

I don't care what they change IAJK or Grounded jaguar on hit on block, once Guy can still IAgrab him during the move I'll be happy :P


get outta the air sucka


edit: I'm an idiot.

Doctor DooM

This thread...

Azza

Adon is fine now. No one on this thread was saying he was OP to begin with, only that he's good (most would argue borderline top 5) and doesn't need buffs.

Jaguar Kick is a good pressure tool, its not fool proof no, but then again no move is. Comparing it to Ryu's DP is silly as the two moves serve completely different purposes. Ryu's DP serves as an reversal, combo ender and anti air move not as a general pressure tool that Adon's Jaguar Kick does.

Jaguar Kick is a pretty good move to get in on your opponent with relatively low effort. Changing it to 0 on hit would see Adon have an advantage over opponents with no 3 frame normals and a 50/50 with anyone who does. He would also be able to combo off counter hitting Jaguar Kicks as they would be +3 using the current counterhit system.

The current -2 on hit means he can't play his normal pressure game against certain characters but that something you just have to deal with. Some characters force other characters outside of their normal gameplan. Akuma can't vortex, Dee Jay or Blanka, Cammy can't vortex Gief or Dee Jay. They just have to play the match up differently.

Asides from that plenty of characters have moves that are punishable on hit.

Abels Kick Wheel.
Blanka's Horizontal Ball.
T.Hawks Condor Spire.
Zangiefs Banishing Flat.
Plus a host of characters have normals that are punishable on hit.

As for Honda he's far from fine, he sucks against fireball characters (with 1 or two exceptions) and is great against non fireball characters (again one or two exceptions). A compromise is needed somwhere.

chopperbyrne

Azza wrote: »

Adon is fine now. No one on this thread was saying he was OP to begin with, only that he's good (most would argue borderline top 5) and doesn't need buffs.

Jaguar Kick is a good pressure tool, its not fool proof no, but then again no move is. Comparing it to Ryu's DP is silly as the two moves serve completely different purposes. Ryu's DP serves as an reversal, combo ender and anti air move not as a general pressure tool that Adon's Jaguar Kick does.

Jaguar Kick is a pretty good move to get in on your opponent with relatively low effort. Changing it to 0 on hit would see Adon have an advantage over opponents with no 3 frame normals and a 50/50 with anyone who does. He would also be able to combo off counter hitting Jaguar Kicks as they would be +3 using the current counterhit system.

The current -2 on hit means he can't play his normal pressure game against certain characters but that something you just have to deal with. Some characters force other characters outside of their normal gameplan. Akuma can't vortex, Dee Jay or Blanka, Cammy can't vortex Gief or Dee Jay. They just have to play the match up differently.

Asides from that plenty of characters have moves that are punishable on hit.

Abels Kick Wheel.
Blanka's Horizontal Ball.
T.Hawks Condor Spire.
Zangiefs Banishing Flat.
Plus a host of characters have normals that are punishable on hit.

As for Honda he's far from fine, he sucks against fireball characters (with 1 or two exceptions) and is great against non fireball characters (again one or two exceptions). A compromise is needed somwhere.

Good post, but you forgot that Bison needs a down + Taunt Puts on Cape move.

JustShon

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Good post, but you forgot that Bison needs a down + Taunt Puts on Cape move.

And anytime he matches Guile the two can't damage each other until the glasses and the cape are on.

IIII Easy IIII

Good stuff Azza, Balance across the board is hard to achieve indeed, like I said in my original post I think Capcom should leave it alone. Top 16 at EVO last year had 15 characters represented! Hope the rapists leave the option of playing v.2012 in the menu!

Dreddybajs

Azza wrote: »

As for Honda he's far from fine, he sucks against fireball characters (with 1 or two exceptions) and is great against non fireball characters (again one or two exceptions). A compromise is needed somwhere.

This is pretty much Honda's character design though, seems to be how he is in every game. I think it's stupid character design but that's how it is.

The Hound

It'a not easy to balance a chatacter, thats why they should bring back Vanilla Sagat. Perfectly balanced, Perfectly absurd and perfectly profound. Hi Capcom if youre reading this, tis all true

Kanped

After DoC in January, I did a bit of reading about ST (never actually played it again) and in that game, Honda had a real chance against fireball characters for the most part, thanks to his negative edge charge storing and sumo-splash from a normal jump. Again, for the most part, against non-fireball characters, he seems pretty broken, though.

His really bad matchups are Cody, Sim and Guile. I would say they're all at least 7-3, possibly worse. The Ryu matchup is bad, just not quite as bad. IMO, his problem in the Ryu match is that Ryu wins air-to-air as well as controlling the ground; Ryu can jump at Honda when he has no charge and Honda usually good air-to-air options all get beaten clean. The same is pretty much true with the Guile matchup, it's just that the faster projectile and better anti-air normals of Guile make it worse. I wonder if just making his close hard punch faster, or trigger from further away and give it more active frames, if that would fix those matchups. Again, light sumo splash going through projectiles would also work but is probably too good.

Cody and Sim are just super-effective at keeping him out. That's what Sim does; that's his archetype and it's always going to be a bad match. I can live with that there's hardly any Sims anyway and I can always counter-pick if I don't feel like slogging through it. Cody, though, plays vs Honda quite differently to his normal playstyle and I feel like that match shouldn't be so difficult. HK ruffian is the issue, really it seems to be an effective anti-air for all of Honda's air options, even empty neutral jumps, while his rocks game will keep you at bay on the ground. There's another old ST (actually, not ST unless you're playing old Honda) property that might be worth considering, which is that crouching HP used to be a hard knockdown. I think that would work here and give him better sweep options in general, and I don't think it would be so good as to make him too powerful against other characters.

As for the matches he wins... Makoto can pressure him a bit, if he has no meter, and her wakeup options are good against him. Maybe she deserves a vitality boost? Better range on the command grab? More damage on HP rush punch for punishing baited headbutts?
Blanka... I don't know what could help him here. The matchup is horrible for Blanka. I feel like his horizontal ball would need to be safe on block, but only in this matchup, so you can't actually change it or it'll be broken elsewhere. If Blanka gets in and scores a knockdown before Honda builds a meter, he can win because lp headbutt won't anti-air a jumping HK from Blanka, so Honda can only AA him if he has meter. The Blanka can safe-jump and mixup Honda to death from there. I guess they could look at how much meter Honda gains from being hit by Blanka, maybe, I dunno how the meter is programmed, though, it might not be character specific like that, and probably isn't but I feel like slowing Honda's meter gain is the best way to look at that matchup (except he needs to be building meter at his current level in a lot of other matches).

EDIT: You know what? Reading through that, I think the issue might actually be that EX Headbutt is too good. I have no idea what you'd do about that, though. Maybe make it much less safe on block...

He's not really super good or bad against anyone else, I think?

K.O.Kiki

Nerf Infiltration Akuma, somehow.

Make sweep either slower, or more punishable.
More recovery on his air bull.
SOMETHING substantial. Not just "we removed HK loop so he's fair now".