National Postcodes to be introduced

recedite

You're argument has always been

1. That sat nav companies WONT use - you seem to be backing down on this and conceding they might

2. It's useless for delivery companies and they won't use it - I've proven that to be incorrect

3. The public will have to pay to look it up - I've proven that to be incorrect too

Everyday that passes your arguments are getting picked apart...

For clarification, heres the actual versions of my views as listed;

1. Sat-nav companies may or may not use it. So the usefulness of eircode to the public depends on the whim of foreign companies.

2. Delivery companies will make do with whatever system they get, it can hardly be worse than no system at all. Trucker representatives (as posted earlier in this thread) say eircode is a wasted opportunity and will add extra costs (licensing)

3. There is no indication yet from eircode that the public will be able to type an eircode into the eircode website and see the location come up on a map.
However I would imagine that Google would be willing to do some sort of deal to facilitate that, in return for control of the information.

Whatever system is adopted by the State, it will be required in all dealings with government agencies, especially in relation to property tax, water and septic tank charges. A lot of money will be spent promoting it.
So it is guaranteed that people will use it, at least to some extent.
The same way everyone now uses the euro, even those who thought it would be bad for our economy.

ukoda

Curly Judge wrote: »

You've proven nothing!
Like the rest of us you are only speculating.
If you do know so much, when can we expect it to be up and running?
And if your forecast proves wrong will you come back here and apologise to the rest of us?
Or will you just change your name and have another reincarnation?

Click on the links I've provided to back up every one of my claims, they are all reliable sources and are proof of what I'm claiming. Ive provided more proof than anyone else here.

and ill be here to the bitter end my friend

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

For clarification, heres the actual versions of my views as listed;

1. Sat-nav companies may or may not use it. So the usefulness of eircode to the public depends on the whim of foreign companies.

2. Delivery companies will make do with whatever system they get, it can hardly be worse than no system at all. Trucker representatives (as posted earlier in this thread) say eircode is a wasted opportunity and will add extra costs (licensing)

3. There is no indication yet from eircode that the public will be able to type an eircode into the eircode website and see the location come up on a map.
However I would imagine that Google would be willing to do some sort of deal to facilitate that, in return for control of the information.

Whatever system is adopted by the State, it will be required in all dealings with government agencies, especially in relation to property tax, water and septic tank charges. A lot of money will be spent promoting it.
So it is guaranteed that people will use it, at least to some extent.
The same way everyone now uses the euro, even those who thought it would be bad for our economy.

nope, here you are categorically saying it will not be on a sat nav:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91981529&postcount=2841

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

nope, here you are categorically saying it will not be on a sat nav:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91981529&postcount=2841

That is me saying that this facility is not available now because it is not within the power or the remit of eircode, even if it launched tomorrow.
If Nokia decide to overlay their maps with eircodes and Garmin then released the free updates, then that is a different matter.
It was in response to your assertion

you will now be able to look up the actual address of any postcode in the country using (likely) your gps or google maps.

ukoda

You know that by "you will now" I meant with the introduction of eircode. And you know I didn't mean "now" as in right this minute.

Also, from doing a lot of research into the sat nav industry, navteq aka Nokia have no need need to adopt eircode, that's not their roll, they provide base maps for the use on sat navs but they usually don't do the navigation software part, altho they have partnered with other companies to do this

So sat navs can easily adopt eircode with no change to their base maps needed

Navteq provide the base maps with all the geo coordinates, no change here

Sat nav companies can load the eircode database raw data to their devices and a simple look up function will it allow it to work on any say nav

I.e.
Eircode A10 12AB = geo coordinate 11,2222 22,33333

It's very easy to work this at minimal cost

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

So sat navs can easily adopt eircode with no change to their base maps needed

That is the case with loc8 codes, but not with eircodes. An eircode does not in itself, carry the specific information.

Loc8 does. No nonsense. No dependency on foreign multinationals to make it work.

ukoda wrote: »

Sat nav companies can load the eircode database raw data to their devices and a simple look up function will it allow it to work on any say nav
I.e.
Eircode A10 12AB = geo coordinate 11,2222 22,33333

It's very easy to work this at minimal cost

There's three ways it could be done.
1. Connect the sat-nav to mobile internet receiver and have it look up the eircode database each time.
2. Equip the sat-nav with extra memory and load the entire eircode database onto the sat-nav.
2. Change the base maps so that all the eircodes are overlaid on the map instead of (or as well as) house numbers.

None of these is easy.
How are the negotiations going with Nokia, Google and Garmin? Have they started yet?

BTW when people try to input raw geo coodinates into a sat nav, they very often mess it up. Thats why loc8 converts them into a simplified version with a checker digit.

Take your example, if you put in 11.2222 22.33333, you'll be on your way to Southern Chad in Africa

Leonard Shelby

ukoda wrote: »

You know that by "you will now" I meant with the introduction of eircode. And you know I didn't mean "now" as in right this minute.

Also, from doing a lot of research into the sat nav industry, navteq aka Nokia have no need need to adopt eircode, that's not their roll, they provide base maps for the use on sat navs but they usually don't do the navigation software part, altho they have partnered with other companies to do this

So sat navs can easily adopt eircode with no change to their base maps needed

Navteq provide the base maps with all the geo coordinates, no change here

Sat nav companies can load the eircode database raw data to their devices and a simple look up function will it allow it to work on any say nav

I.e.
Eircode A10 12AB = geo coordinate 11,2222 22,33333

It's very easy to work this at minimal cost

Hi ukoda,
The base maps provided by Navteq will include Eircodes, that is how all the sat nav companies they license data to will have them on their devices. Garmin use Navteq, and will adopt Eircodes, as they would otherwise put themselves at a competitive disadvantage by only supporting Loc8 codes.
Incidentally map databases are very large, gigabytes in size, and the Eircode database is small, megabytes in size, so attempts by other posters to suggest that sat navs will not be able to store them without a memory upgrade is nonsense.

I hope that clarifies things.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

That is the case with loc8 codes, but not with eircodes. An eircode does not in itself, carry the specific information.

Loc8 does. No nonsense. No dependency on foreign multinationals to make it work.


There's three ways it could be done.
1. Connect the sat-nav to mobile internet receiver and have it look up the eircode database each time.
2. Equip the sat-nav with extra memory and load the entire eircode database onto the sat-nav.
2. Change the base maps so that all the eircodes are overlaid on the map instead of (or as well as) house numbers.

None of these is easy.
How are the negotiations going with Nokia, Google and Garmin? Have they started yet?

BTW when people try to input raw geo coodinates into a sat nav, they very often mess it up. Thats why loc8 converts them into a simplified version with a checker digit.

Take your example, if you put in 11.2222 22.33333, you'll be on your way to Southern Chad in Africa

Well first of all - loc8code is dependant on a foreign multinational to work - the sat nav companies had to agree to it and distribute it on their systems

secondly the theres absolutely no need to connect to the internet - the eircode database can fit on a sat nav, as we've discussed here before 2.2 million bits of raw data is not a lot and the most basic of sat navs can hold the entire Royal Mail data base of 27 million address and nearly 2 million postcodes

yes i agree, entering geo's on a sat nav is prone to error, but eircode resolves most of that issue - you won't be entering geo's you'll be entering an eircode and if its wrong, in 99.9% of cases you'll get a "no such eircode, try again" error - so it acts as check in itself, its extremely extremely unlikely that you'd enter an eircode and it just so happens the mistake you made in it makes it a valid eircode for another set of geo co-ordinates

so with an eircode.....i'd have no chance of ending up in Africa

ukoda

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

Hi ukoda,
The base maps provided by Navteq will include Eircodes, that is how all the sat nav companies they license data to will have them on their devices. Garmin use Navteq, and will adopt Eircodes, as they would otherwise put themselves at a competitive disadvantage by only supporting Loc8 codes.
Incidentally map databases are very large, gigabytes in size, and the Eircode database is small, megabytes in size, so attempts by other posters to suggest that sat navs will not be able to store them without a memory upgrade is nonsense.

I hope that clarifies things.

thanks for that, i would also say though that the sat nav companies can introduce this without an upgrade of the Navteq mapping?

As in - navteq have all the geo co-ordinates for Ireland already on their maps, the sat navs could introduce a table on their software that validates the eircode and returns the geo coordinates associated with it - so they are just adding an extra layer to directly entering the geo co-oridantes on sat nav?

doing it this way would bypass the dependancy on navteq - its actually the same thing garmin did for Loc8code - except a table wasn't needed?

recedite

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

The base maps provided by Navteq will include Eircodes, that is how all the sat nav companies they license data to will have them on their devices. Garmin use Navteq, and will adopt Eircodes...

Well that is interesting, if true.
How do you know this, are you a representative of Eircode?
When will the map updates be made available, and how much will they cost?

Leonard Shelby

recedite wrote: »

Well that is interesting, if true.
How do you know this, are you a representative of Eircode?
When will the map updates be made available, and how much will they cost?

That is how sat nav companies license their data. Only the anti-Eircode brigade think it is going to be different in Ireland. Eircodes on sat navs is simply a matter of when, not if.

Its funny how the conspiracy theorists think that stating the obvious is somehow a revelation.

recedite

Strange that neither Garmin nor TomTom have made any announcements that they are going to pay to license this eircode data.
Would they not be marketing this competitive advantage in advance?

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

Strange that neither Garmin nor TomTom have made any announcements that they are going to pay to license this eircode data.
Would they not be marketing this competitive advantage in advance?

No they wouldn't be marketing an improvement to one of their products that's not due for 6 months yet.

TheBustedFlush

recedite wrote: »

Strange that neither Garmin nor TomTom have made any announcements that they are going to pay to license this eircode data.
Would they not be marketing this competitive advantage in advance?

It's linked to release date timeframes. These updates take time to work through existing stock loads, and to coordinate with other updates they are bringing through in other territories.

TomTom will probably come through first given their existing relationships.

Garmin have a small decision to make - do they continue supporting Loc8 on their devices, or do they just accept the inevitable that eircodes will come through and be adopted? As above poster said, they may not have much choice if their mapping provider adopts them anyway.

Tow

recedite wrote: »

Strange that neither Garmin nor TomTom have made any announcements that they are going to pay to license this eircode data.
Would they not be marketing this competitive advantage in advance?

May not be worth their while if the cost is too high to include it in standard consumer GPSs, considering the small Irish market. You have to remember that they currently produce models for the 'British Isles'. They will not want to incur extra cost for a feature which is only of interest to 10% of a models market.

However, I am sure they could bring out a professional GPS with full Eircode data, but it would have a professional cost associated with it. It was not that long ago when GPS's cost 4 figure sums.

ukoda

Tow wrote: »

May not be worth their while if the cost is too high to include it in standard consumer GPSs, considering the small Irish market. You have to remember that they currently produce models for the 'British Isles'. They will not want to incur extra cost for a feature which is only of interest to 10% of a models market.

However, I am sure they could bring out a professional GPS with full Eircode data, but it would have a professional cost associated with it. It was not that long ago when GPS's cost 4 figure sums.

this whole "Ireland is too small for them to care about" argument is pure nonsense.

Why don't you go on to the navteq website (btw they are now rebranded to "Here") and have a look at what they do for Ireland

They have invested in for Ireland:

• Realtime traffic updates
• A comprehensive POI library
• Integrated with lonely planet reviews
• weather updates
• and they have 3D maps coming soon

So this "Ireland is only on sat navs by default and they don't spend money on Ireland" is absolutely not true

recedite

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

TomTom will probably come through first given their existing relationships.

Garmin have a small decision to make - do they continue supporting Loc8 on their devices, or do they just accept the inevitable that eircodes will come through and be adopted?

TomTom seem to be against the idea of Eircode - they are currently promoting their own alternative in Mapcode.

I'd say both companies will adopt a "wait and see" approach.

If (a) the Irish people enthusiastically adopt eircodes in their daily lives (as opposed to just keeping a note of them for when they need to pay their annual property tax and water charges)
and (b) it looks like the average consumer will be willing to pay more to cover the extra licensing and engineering costs, then the sat-nav companies may decide to play ball.

TheBustedFlush

recedite wrote: »

TomTom seem to be against the idea of Eircode - they are currently promoting their own alternative in Mapcode.

You might be surprised.

recedite

The suspense is killing me. Ah well, whats another year or two.

TheBustedFlush

recedite wrote: »

The suspense is killing me. Ah well, whats another year or two.

You have a point there. Maybe 2020 when the stars are aligned.

larchill

Ah thank goodness all that tit-for-tatting of the past few days has faded away. eircodes will be coming whether ye all like it or not. Bear in mind that this whole postcode issue was driven by business & comercial interests together with the arrival of location technology, namely satnavs & internet mapping, mainly Google maps. This highlighted the need for a code of some sort especially when the usefulness of the UK postcodes for this purpose became evident. Then you have the fact that 40% of our addresses are non unique & rather something of a mess. A unique code for each address is an obvious & relatively easy solution & beats having to take on the mammoth task of naming every road & numbering houses! The Geodirectory is already available & contains details of every address & is based upon Osi locational & An Post operational data. Every address has a 'technical code' which is not suitable for general every day use - hence the need for the derivation of the eircode. It mightn't be perfect but its certainly better than nothing & will be an enhancement on what we have at present. Loc8Code appears to be better & perhaps more easily understood but it requires users to click on a map & obtain a code which may not be accurate. Maybe this process could be automated - a lookup using the geolocational data in the Geodirectory perhaps? Anyway eircodes here we come ...:D

flutered

larchill wrote: »

Ah thank goodness all that tit-for-tatting of the past few days has faded away. eircodes will be coming whether ye all like it or not. Bear in mind that this whole postcode issue was driven by business & comercial interests together with the arrival of location technology, namely satnavs & internet mapping, mainly Google maps. This highlighted the need for a code of some sort especially when the usefulness of the UK postcodes for this purpose became evident. Then you have the fact that 40% of our addresses are non unique & rather something of a mess. A unique code for each address is an obvious & relatively easy solution & beats having to take on the mammoth task of naming every road & numbering houses! The Geodirectory is already available & contains details of every address & is based upon Osi locational & An Post operational data. Every address has a 'technical code' which is not suitable for general every day use - hence the need for the derivation of the eircode. It mightn't be perfect but its certainly better than nothing & will be an enhancement on what we have at present. Loc8Code appears to be better & perhaps more easily understood but it requires users to click on a map & obtain a code which may not be accurate. Maybe this process could be automated - a lookup using the geolocational data in the Geodirectory perhaps? Anyway eircodes here we come ...:D

to me the abouve is similar to a press release, btw, i have no interest either way, except for the hugue cost of it.

Tow

larchill wrote: »

Loc8Code appears to be better & perhaps more easily understood but it requires users to click on a map & obtain a code which may not be accurate. Maybe this process could be automated - a lookup using the geolocational data in the Geodirectory perhaps? Anyway eircodes here we come ...:D

Very simple, just add a new field to the address table to the Geo Directory and run the Loc8 algorithm against the existing coordinates in the same table. In fact you do not even need to add a field, the Loc8 can be generated on the fly.
If An Post decide they don't want to do it, outsource the job and future maintenance to the LGCSB. The LGCSB have plenty of experience in this area and did a good in cleaning up the electrical register for the country.

antoinolachtnai

What is the electrical register?

The LGCSB is long gone.

larchill

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What is the electrical register?

The LGCSB is long gone.

I think he means Electoral Register LGCSB = Local Government Computer Services Board? What has replaced the LGCSB?

SpaceTime

I like that slogan :

Eircode - it's coming whether you like it or not!

Also the name sound like it's an eircom connected thing. Poor choice of tm.

recedite

larchill wrote: »

I think he means Electoral Register LGCSB = Local Government Computer Services Board? What has replaced the LGCSB?

The "electrical register" would presumably be the MPRN database. A list of addresses, each with a unique identifier reference number. Very like an eircode actually.

LGCSB has probably been outsourced or renamed, but the point...

Very simple, just add a new field to the address table to the Geo Directory and run the Loc8 algorithm against the existing coordinates in the same table. In fact you do not even need to add a field, the Loc8 can be generated on the fly.

...is still valid. This would give every house an official code for taxation purposes, while still allowing people to generate new or temporary codes themselves for places such as building sites, hotel back entrances, forest car parks, harbours, piers, etc..

antoinolachtnai

The MPRN database has never had anything at all to do with the LGSCB. The electoral register is a disaster from top to bottom and a model for nothing.

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The MPRN database has never had anything at all to do with the LGSCB. The electoral register is a disaster from top to bottom and a model for nothing.

Yes, The MPRN datbase has nothing to do with any government services and isnt suitable for that purpose

MPRN's are Meter Point Reference Numbers, so they apply to anywhere that has a meter, so there could be multiple MPRN's associated with a single property if they have more than one meter, or there could just be a single one for multiple properties if they dont have their own meter (e.g. a house converted to flats but kept a single meter) MPRN's are assigned to public lighting points, landlord supplies in apartment blocks (for corridoor ligths/lifts)etc, they are just a list of anywhere a meter exisits.

they are not assigned to the Geo Directory nor have they any link to that address stucture

ozmo

So - small update in IT today.

Wonder what kind of law they can be thinking for the data protection issue? Maybe have an optout ex-directory option?

Interesting also the IT note the concern over the lack of its usefulness for geolocation(ie. gps devices etc)....

IrishTimesToday wrote:

“The postcodes project is expected to cost around €16 million, as it is developed and rolled out over the next two years, and there will be a cost of about €1.2 million a year for the remainder of the 10-year licence,” it states.

The briefing does note that the Data Protection Commissioner’s Office has had “some concerns”, but department officials have assured Mr White the concerns are being addressed. Concerns have also been expressed that the system chosen is not as ambitious as the one envisaged in 2005.

There have been claims of a lack of geolocation capabilities, which will render the system of limited use to services other than the postal services, including freight operators.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/minister-confident-new-postcode-system-will-be-introduced-early-next-year-1.1928738