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National Postcodes to be introduced
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While one has to admit that one hasn't read all 147 pages of comment, I can't help but wonder what the drivers are behind a posting like yours......0
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It is like a PPSN rather than a postcode. The German constitution forbids assigning a person number to each individual, and I suspect if they ever decided to assign a postcode to each house, it would also be illegal for similar reasons. To prevent Hitler types ever again.
The "Data Protection" commissioner should resign for allowing this appalling government abuse of private property and personal information rights to go ahead. Bureaucratic corruption of the highest form.
Rather than "Eircode" it should perhaps be called the "airhead code"!
Postcodes and data didn't cause Hitler! He just abused them horribly.0 -
It was designed by a private company actually. It was chosen in a "competitive" tender situation. The organiser of the competitive tender process chose his own company....A postcode designed by bureaucratic, idiot civil servants with zero focus on benefits. ...
Apart from that, I agree with the rest of your post.0 -
The national postcode system introduced in Germany in 1941 was the first in the world. It was simple (eg 6000 Frankfurt, 5000 Cologne) and it followed the lines of the railway tracks. Logical. It worked until the re-unification of Germany when they decided to move to a 5 digit system to cover the entire country, which obviously only points to postal zones. They didn't have the technology back then to make use of a postcode unique to each premises.
The dirt and corruption comes when they increased the resolution of a technology. eg in the former East Germany, if you bought a typewriter, you had to take it to a police station to get a license for it, during which process they took a record of the print profile of all the characters it could type. They effectively captured a fingerprint of each typewriter so if one wrote anything critical of the government etc they could trace the document back to the individual typewriter that created the document. In my mind that is not dis-similar to a postcode that is unique to each house. In some cases it goes to the heart of freedom of speech, and the idea of creating of a unique "postcode" for each building is probably unique in the world, in terms of its infiltration of privacy and private property rights.
The US post office introduced a zip + 4 - ie 9 digit postcode about 20 years ago. Very few people use the last four digits, even though it is not generally unique to a household. Postal sorting technology moved on, and Britain is the only country in Europe that still has to use a postcode for postal sorting, due to the obsolete nature of the technology they use which is 30 to 40 years old. In every other country with mechanized sorting (including Ireland) the entire address is scanned, verified on a database of valid addresses, and each postal item is given a "random" barcode that has nothing to do with postcodes etc.
What measures are there in "the postcode law" of Ireland to prevent abuses, be they "horrible" or otherwise?
Ireland has been lied to about the Eircode. It does not improve postal sorting efficiency. It does not help one find an address (be it urban or rural) any faster. They made absolutely sure of that by randomizing the last four characters in the design.0 -
It was designed by a private company actually. It was chosen in a "competitive" tender situation. The organiser of the competitive tender process chose his own company.
Apart from that, I agree with the rest of your post.
The specifications were "designed" by civil servants and the grunt work of allocating codes to each individual premises were outsourced to private enterprise. In the same way as hundreds of millions have been paid by gov to outside consultants to create a new billing infrastructure for water meters and run AIB etc.0 -
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Not quite. This is a long thread, but you need to go back a bit in it to around post #2080 or thereabouts....The specifications were "designed" by civil servants and the grunt work of allocating codes to each individual premises were outsourced to private enterprise.. .0 -
What? You're telling me that postcodes will make it easier for my children to be conscripted into a European Army? Quick, raise the alarm, fetch Declan Ganley, has anyone told Mattie McGrath...The national postcode system introduced in Germany in 1941 was the first in the world. It was simple (eg 6000 Frankfurt, 5000 Cologne) and it followed the lines of the railway tracks. Logical. It worked until the re-unification of Germany when they decided to move to a 5 digit system to cover the entire country, which obviously only points to postal zones. They didn't have the technology back then to make use of a postcode unique to each premises.
The dirt and corruption comes when they increased the resolution of a technology. eg in the former East Germany, if you bought a typewriter, you had to take it to a police station to get a license for it, during which process they took a record of the print profile of all the characters it could type. They effectively captured a fingerprint of each typewriter so if one wrote anything critical of the government etc they could trace the document back to the individual typewriter that created the document. In my mind that is not dis-similar to a postcode that is unique to each house. In some cases it goes to the heart of freedom of speech, and the idea of creating of a unique "postcode" for each building is probably unique in the world, in terms of its infiltration of privacy and private property rights.
The US post office introduced a zip + 4 - ie 9 digit postcode about 20 years ago. Very few people use the last four digits, even though it is not generally unique to a household. Postal sorting technology moved on, and Britain is the only country in Europe that still has to use a postcode for postal sorting, due to the obsolete nature of the technology they use which is 30 to 40 years old. In every other country with mechanized sorting (including Ireland) the entire address is scanned, verified on a database of valid addresses, and each postal item is given a "random" barcode that has nothing to do with postcodes etc.
What measures are there in "the postcode law" of Ireland to prevent abuses, be they "horrible" or otherwise?
Ireland has been lied to about the Eircode. It does not improve postal sorting efficiency. It does not help one find an address (be it urban or rural) any faster. They made absolutely sure of that by randomizing the last four characters in the design.0 -
Leonard Shelby wrote: »What? You're telling me that postcodes will make it easier for my children to be conscripted into a European Army? Quick, raise the alarm, fetch Declan Ganley, has anyone told Mattie McGrath...
While I don't know if you have children or not, I do know that there is no "European Army" and therefore no "conscription". And postcodes would have zero to do with this issue anyway. Smokescreen posting methinks - and I continue to wonder what your motivation / driving force for this is????.0 -
Today, if someone asks where you live, you can answer as you like – eg “Dublin”, “Wexford”, “Merrion Road” etc. without disclosing your precise place of abode.
If they demand your postcode, they will know exactly where you live to the nearest metre.
Britain’s postcode points to about 20 houses (for each code), and has created postcode blight in numerous sectors – eg insurance (ie un-insurable houses), job search bias, criminal risk analysis (eg 40% of people living in postcode SE97 0GW have criminal convictions – and if your postcode is also SE97 0GW, chances are you are a criminal too). Guilt by association.
Most everywhere else in Europe a postcode points to a district or a zone (part of a postal district) – with the exception of business postcodes (eg CEDEX* in France which can point to a specific company address) – ie the postman going door to door does not deliver to CEDEX addresses, because they typically receive a van load of mail or a PO Box.
* Courrier d'Entreprise à Distribution EXceptionnelle
The idiots behind eircode.ie appear to have made no provision for CEDEX or PO Box addresses from the little that has been published on their website http://www.eircode.ie/overview.html
Which tends to confirm one’s suspicion that they have zero interest in fast delivery of post to the intended address point – ie calling “Eircode” a postcode is being economical with the truth, Richard Nixon style….0 -
Denmark of similar population to IRL has a 4 digit postocde, a table of which one can download from here in Excel format
http://www.postdanmark.dk/da/Documents/Lister/postcodes-file-to-download.xls
Virtually every street in Copenhagen has a unique postocde - you just add the house number and you have a unique code for each building. It is easy to remember and generally user-friendly.0 -
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It is like a PPSN rather than a postcode. QUOTE]
A PPS Number is unique to a person. If you change address you keep your PPSN. It has nothing to do with where you live.
A postcode is unique to an address location. Hence as businesses come and go from a retail unit in a shopping centre or families change house none of them will bring their postcode with them because it is not actually theirs - it belongs to that location and vacant offices and dwellings will also be assigned a postcode.
Anyone know why Sinn Fein are so opposed to postcodes: their representatives are the most active asking parliamentary questions in the Dáil and in Europe.0 -
In Ireland everyone in the same townland has the same address, so that system wouldn't work.Denmark of similar population to IRL has a 4 digit postocde, a table of which one can download from here in Excel format
http://www.postdanmark.dk/da/Documents/Lister/postcodes-file-to-download.xls
Virtually every street in Copenhagen has a unique postocde - you just add the house number and you have a unique code for each building. It is easy to remember and generally user-friendly.0 -
Leonard Shelby wrote: »In Ireland everyone in the same townland has the same address, so that system wouldn't work.
The basic element of an address is a street or road name and a house number. That is how human beings find a house or office. It is the most fundamental element of a country's infrastructure.
In well organised countries, the numbers are metric outside of dense urban areas. ie house number 456 is 200 m from house number 656. If it is on the other side of the road it might be 657 (odd one side, even the other). If a new house is built between numbers 456 and 657, it is given its appropriate metric number, rather than being awkwardly called 456A or similar. Like Dublin 6W.
Ireland has had a geo-directory even since An Post automated sorting. This directory has the latitude and longitude co-ordinates of every building, as well as the name of the road, so it would be a simple matter for a computer program to assign metric numbers to each building.
Where no road name exists, it could be based on the townland name or it might be the L road number - (eg 400 ROUTE L97820) or there might be a local vote to select a name (as some government spokesperson suggested). The L route number would be logical, only unfortunately they messed up that numbering too. eg as you drive down the (let's say) N8, the L side road numbers off that main route are not sequentially numbered, and most are not shown on maps - with the exception of some L roads on Google maps.
Adding a postcode is no substitute for a clean, logical street address system. If you computerise chaos, you end up with an absolute dog’s dinner.
Every town should be defined in terms of a list of roads/streets etc belonging to that town (ie the town itself and surrounding hinterland, and each street should be named and numbered (be it an urban street or a laneway in a townland). In many cases the townland name could become the road name simply by adding “road”.
In well signposted countries when leaving the defined area of a given town, a sign shows its name with a diagonal line across it to signify the end boundary point. Below it is the name of the next town.
Giving every building a road name and building number makes the address brief, precise and easy to find.
Eg
1400 NAAS ROAD
1024 DUBLIN
This building would be 1,400m from the start of the Naas Road (you could set your odometer to 0 outside another building whose number was visible to you or at the start of the road) and drive 1.4km to your destination. 1400 is even so it would be on the right. Far more practical and useful and easy to remember compared with D24 8UBX – which is a meaningless random jumble of characters – almost like a computer password.0 -
Best practice in the area is in Switzerland. You can download codes and street names for address cleaning and rapid address entry systems, free from the Swisspost website. Simple text files which can be imported into any database system, excel, etc.
Postcode file structures: http://www.swisspost.ch/post-startseite/post-adress-services-match/post-direct-marketing-datengrundlage/pm-sortierfile-angebote-datenstrukturen.pdf
(Only the 4 digit postcode is used on mailing addresses).
Streets: https://match.post.ch/download?file=10010&tid=8&rol=0
Postcodes and town names: https://match.post.ch/download?file=10001&tid=11&rol=0
The Swiss system has provision for everything including local language preferences.0 -
Anyone know why Sinn Fein are so opposed to postcodes: their representatives are the most active asking parliamentary questions in the Dáil and in Europe.
They are always the quickest party to jump on any whiff of government corruption, or any collusion with private interests against the public interest (the taxpayer).
It was the same Pearse Doherty who brought down the last govt. when he proved in court that they were acting unconstitutionally in leaving vacant Dail seats (knowing that if by-elections were held, the seats would only go to the opposition candidates, and then bye bye to the slim govt. majority)
And SF were the party that was most vociferous against bailing out the foreign speculative bondholders. A debt burden which our kids will still carry long after we are all dead.
I'm not a SF voter myself because of the baggage some of them carry, but I can recognise an individual clever and honest politician, among the crowd of self-interested cute hoors.
Also there is the fact that the existing free loc8 codes work equally well in N.Ireland, making them a useful 32 county solution that can work in parallel with UK postcodes, but with greater accuracy. Handy for anyone travelling up there who wants to use them. That must appeal to them too.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 19099
The basic element of an address is a street or road name and a house number. That is how human beings find a house or office. It is the most fundamental element of a country's infrastructure.
Far more practical and useful and easy to remember compared with D24 8UBX – which is a meaningless random jumble of characters – almost like a computer password.
Basically, if the address scheme we have is rubbish, then so will the post code. Just to make it certain, we are looking at a rubbish post code system to go with our rubbish, non-existant, street address scheme.
The politicos and civil servants have a definite bias towards the schemes that do not work rather than those that do.
Irish Water - give it to Bord Gais so they can use existing structures to save money. Bord Gais appoint consultants to reinvent the structures for Irish Water that already exist in Bord Gais.
Saorview - RTE/2RN spend a fortune advertising the 'new' system instead of puting the message onto the affected screens for free.
Property tax - the Revenue give no guidence to property owners to value their property and threaten them with dire consequences if they undervalue. (90% of the valuation form is about the method of payment, 0% was about the property.) If I was doing it, I would have asked for details about the house - floor area, site area, no of rooms, no of bathrooms, etc. etc. etc. The Revenue have no way of checking the value from the information supplied on the form, and do not ask for supporting documntation.
Septic tank registration - the scheme had to be introduced because of poor groundwater and EU sanctions. The €50 charge was reduced to €5 to encourage compliance with little or no effect. Then they announced that non-registered tanks would not be eligible for grants and there was a rush.
Road tax for vehicles off the road. Every one had to do it on the one day. It should have been done in stages. The biggest problem was tractors and old vehicles. They should have been left for the second or third phase.
There are loads of other examples.0 -
Sam Russell wrote: »Basically, if the address scheme we have is rubbish, then so will the post code. Just to make it certain, we are looking at a rubbish post code system to go with our rubbish, non-existant, street address scheme.
The politicos and civil servants have a definite bias towards the schemes that do not work rather than those that do.
Irish Water - give it to Bord Gais so they can use existing structures to save money. Bord Gais appoint consultants to reinvent the structures for Irish Water that already exist in Bord Gais.
Saorview - RTE/2RN spend a fortune advertising the 'new' system instead of puting the message onto the affected screens for free.
Property tax - the Revenue give no guidence to property owners to value their property and threaten them with dire consequences if they undervalue. (90% of the valuation form is about the method of payment, 0% was about the property.) If I was doing it, I would have asked for details about the house - floor area, site area, no of rooms, no of bathrooms, etc. etc. etc. The Revenue have no way of checking the value from the information supplied on the form, and do not ask for supporting documntation.
Septic tank registration - the scheme had to be introduced because of poor groundwater and EU sanctions. The €50 charge was reduced to €5 to encourage compliance with little or no effect. Then they announced that non-registered tanks would not be eligible for grants and there was a rush.
Road tax for vehicles off the road. Every one had to do it on the one day. It should have been done in stages. The biggest problem was tractors and old vehicles. They should have been left for the second or third phase.
There are loads of other examples.
The old ESB account number system was well designed. 9 digits in total gave each building an exclusive code. All one needed is probably the first four digits of the account number for a postcode. And the electricity billing system could have been used to collect water charges (as happens in Malta). It could even collect the property tax.
ESB bills were printed out in account number order, and this caused them to be pre-sorted for the post office - saving a huge amount of work sorting that mail. The suffix of the Eircode will be randomly generated, so it can't be used to pre-sort mail or anything else (plan journeys involving multiple stops etc). One couldn't devise a more brain dead coding system than the "Eircode" in a million years.
[When your car insurance renewal comes up in Malta, you have the option of ticking a box on the renewal payment advice form, and the insurance company will issue the road circulation tax disk at the same time. The eliminates / greatly reduces the need for counter staff at the "DMV". It is smarter still to have no tax disk and instead collect the tax via the fuel system, as is the case is France and other countries.] There are many ways of killing two birds with one stone and saving money in the process.
A totally alien concept in dysfunctionally administered Ireland!0 -
Impetus, you make very good points, and very sensible suggestions.
Unfortunately, this is Ireland. And sense within anything the government organises is seldom prevalent.
If it were, there would be less opportunity for flagrantly spending/wasting public money (which seems to make those responsible feel more important) and less possibility of feathering the nests of elected representatives and senior civil servants' friends and relatives.
And that would never do.
So of course, and as usual, we'll be left with a half-arsed, inefficient, imperfect, system which will cost the country much money and pay out cash to consultants and certain 'lucky' companies for years to come, with questionable benefit to the citizens.
Sigh.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 19099
A totally alien concept in dysfunctionally administered Ireland!
As is urgency.
The post code was announced since Adam was a lad. The replacement for the TV Licence was announce years go, but has not happened yet (if ever).
The use of the ESB bill was abrilliant oportunity to turn it into a Gov fee collector, but then they let lots of 'energy' companies start billing for the same ESB electricity. Daft.0 -
Sam Russell wrote: »As is urgency.
The post code was announced since Adam was a lad. The replacement for the TV Licence was announce years go, but has not happened yet (if ever).
The use of the ESB bill was abrilliant oportunity to turn it into a Gov fee collector, but then they let lots of 'energy' companies start billing for the same ESB electricity. Daft.
If they kept the original ESB account code and used it as a premises code for all energy suppliers (ie probably what they have now turned into an MPRN code of 11 digits) in addition to which Electric Ireland add a 9 digit account number - to confuse and needlessly complicate things further. Whoever was issuing the electricity bill to the customer could be paid a fee to collect water charges and even property tax (in installments if necessary). The meter readers in Malta read both the water and electricity meter during the same visit - which is a massive elimination of duplicated costs. (IBM was designing a smart metering system for Malta which would eliminate the meter readers - which I think they are still waiting for).
Some people will be thinking that meter reading, a separate water and property tax billing system etc will "create" jobs. Unemployment in Malta is 6.7%, one of the lowest in Europe - compared with 12.1% in IRL. Real jobs are created by adding value, not by expanding public (or private) bureaucracy.
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/3-31012014-AP/EN/3-31012014-AP-EN.PDF0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 19099
My water meter (fitted five years ago) is read by a yoke on top of the nearest lamp-post. My new gas meter (fitted a year or so ago) has to be read by crawiling into the hole under the stairs as it has no remote reading capability as far as I can see. It replace one with easily readable dials, but this one has a tiny recessed LED display that is nearly impossible to read.0 -
Sam Russell wrote: »My water meter (fitted five years ago) is read by a yoke on top of the nearest lamp-post. My new gas meter (fitted a year or so ago) has to be read by crawiling into the hole under the stairs as it has no remote reading capability as far as I can see. It replace one with easily readable dials, but this one has a tiny recessed LED display that is nearly impossible to read.
Presumably your gas supplier has your best interests at heart! If you can't clearly see how much gas you consume, life is less stressful (until the bill arrives). Intelligent design is a big issue, for which I give Ireland nul points. Hermes can make a lady's handbag and sell it for €5,000 - mainly down to perceived design excellence. Similar design issues apply to postcodes, door locks, the look of a property, integrated public transport, road signage, or the design and location of a utility meter, etc. The Scandinavian countries, Finland, Germany and Switzerland have made GDP fortunes out of design excellence.
Ireland needs a design university to create generations of people who have an intelligent perspective on the way services, systems and products are engineered.
The Monegasque government opened a university of hotel management and other job related skills last year. Anyone who has visited/stayed in Monaco knows that the standards of service in hotels and everything else at among the best on the planet. Yet the government decided to improve on this issue spending millions on a new university, in a place where land is scarce etc.
The Swiss have a saying along the lines of the lack of training can be extremely expensive. This is valid everywhere - in financial markets, running businesses, running governments, creating postcode systems, hospitals, public planning, public transport, running the central bank...... It is high time that the knowledge of best practice became the norm in IRL, especially in the public service.
http://www.lycee-technique.mc0 -
The code is not standards compliant - mail sorting is international and online web based transactions depends on these standards. The Dublin codes will overlap with German postcodes (eg D03nnn) and the Cork codes with Cuba (C01nnn).
Cork codes won't use C01 or even begin with the letter C, so they can't overlap.
Cuban postal codes are 5 numbers only. They sometimes have a prefix of CP before them. The country code is CU.
German postcodes are 5 numbers only. The country code is DE.Virtually every other European country uses numeric only codes which appear before the name of the town and point to a postal zone or at most a cluster of properties. One can thus give one's postcode without disclosing exactly where one lives etc.
Every other European country except the UK or Holland. If the postal code only points to a cluster of properties then it would be of very little use in Ireland given high proportion of no -number addresses (600k of them!)The Irish system, like the British system, is going to be copyrighted and sold – rather than downloadable free from a website as is available intelligently administered countries.
The eircode system belongs to the state already - it is operated under license only. It can only be sold by the State.
Data from postcode databases is licensed/sold in many countries around the world including most of Europe, US, etc.0 -
Eh no.... we already have the talent, we just don't allow it to flourish. Ever noticed how well Irish people do when they go abroad?Ireland needs a design university to create generations of people who have an intelligent perspective on the way services, systems and products are engineered.
The postcode farce is a classic example. There are numerous excellent ideas buried deep within this very boards.ie thread. There is even a functional postcode which has been designed by a contributor and showcased here.
And what happened when the govt. tender was finally put out? A mysterious requirement for a €40 million turnover appeared in it.
Was this a requirement under EU tendering rules? No.
Who benefited? The guy who designed the tender and then cut a deal with a large foreign company be part of a consortium which was able to fulfill this requirement in his own tender.
Who lost out?
1. The Irish taxpayer, who was sold a very expensive lemon.
2. All the talented SME's, both Irish and EU wide who were excluded. In particular the Irish ones, because they had already invested time and effort. And they also happen to be Irish taxpayers, so any money they might have earned would have stayed in the economy.
All this is in the public domain. As a nation we are far too tolerant of inept and corrupt leaders. We have become disillusioned, as if we believe there is no other way. We don't need another university, we just need to stop tolerating cronyism and inadequate politicians.Michael Colreavy TD wrote:..In addition, I still do not understand why there was a requirement for tendering companies to have a turnover of €40 million or more, a requirement which excluded most Irish IT companies from the competition. It was also reported that a person, persons or company involved in analysis, design and advice in regard to the system was also part of the consortium which eventually won the tender. Will the Minister comment on that?Minister Rabbitte wrote:I did not know there was a turnover threshold below which companies could not apply, and I am sceptical as to whether that was, in fact, the case...Michael Colreavy TD wrote:The Minister made no reference to the fact that a person, persons or company involved in analysis, design and advice in regard to the system is now benefitting from the ten-year contract that was awarded...
sourceMinister Rabbitte wrote:I do not know what the Deputy means by his last point.
Rabbitte later assured us that he had a letter from the EU to say they had investigated the tendering process and found no abuses of the normal process had occurred.
We are still waiting for him to produce this letter.0 -
Eh no.... we already have the talent, we just don't allow it to flourish. Ever noticed how well Irish people do when they go abroad?
The postcode farce is a classic example. There are numerous excellent ideas buried deep within this very boards.ie thread. There is even a functional postcode which has been designed by a contributor and showcased here.
And what happened when the govt. tender was finally put out? A mysterious requirement for a €40 million turnover appeared in it.
Was this a requirement under EU tendering rules? No.
Who benefited? The guy who designed the tender and then cut a deal with a large foreign company be part of a consortium which was able to fulfill this requirement in his own tender.
Who lost out?
1. The Irish taxpayer, who was sold a very expensive lemon.
2. All the talented SME's, both Irish and EU wide who were excluded. In particular the Irish ones, because they had already invested time and effort. And they also happen to be Irish taxpayers, so any money they might have earned would have stayed in the economy.
All this is in the public domain. As a nation we are far too tolerant of inept and corrupt leaders. We have become disillusioned, as if we believe there is no other way. We don't need another university, we just need to stop tolerating cronyism and inadequate politicians.
source
Rabbitte later assured us that he had a letter from the EU to say they had investigated the tendering process and found no abuses of the normal process had occurred.
We are still waiting for him to produce this letter.
Shades of Shatter?0 -
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Govt. delegated the job to NPPB.
sourceIn July 2006, a report by the National Postcode Project Board recommended the most appropriate postcode system for Ireland. The NPPB Board, which comprised representatives of the Government and public and private sector organisations, identified many postal and non-postal benefits of introducing codes.0 -
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Obviously the govt. bears ultimate responsibility for any govt. awarded contract, but it appears from the replies the Minister gave to the questions in the Dail that he had little personal interest or knowledge in what was going on, and was only interested in making it look to the public like he was overseeing something successful.
The PA consulting reports recommended what the NPPB recommended; and PA were then contracted to oversee the tender to find a contractor to implement it. The PQQ for the tender referred to the NPPB report as the basis for its inception.0 -
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The PA consulting reports recommended what the NPPB recommended; and PA were then contracted to oversee the tender to find a contractor to implement it. The PQQ for the tender referred to the NPPB report as the basis for its inception.
That doesn't make sense from what you wrote earlier. Think you've got your logic wrong.0
This discussion has been closed.
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