National Postcodes to be introduced

SpaceTime

After all those years of rolling out and planning, they'd want a nice logo!

Elmo

SpaceTime wrote: »

After all those years of rolling out and planning, they'd want a nice logo!

I wonder how much of those years and plans could really be deleted and bare little or no relevance to what they are about to try to achieve.

Not that that is a cynical or rhetorical question.

larchill

Bloody hell, they’ve kept D6W – why could’nt this’ve been merged with D6 & proceed from there with the unique code

"The Routing Key refers to the first three characters of an Eircode. The first character will always be a letter, followed by two numbers, except for D6W"

larchill

The Communications Minister Pat Rabbitte has admitted the new postcode system will make it easier for Revenue to collect taxes.

Pat Rabbitte was speaking as the new EirCode service was unveiled in Dublin today.

It will assign a seven figure combination of letters and numbers for every house in the country.

Critics have accused the system of streamlining collection of the property tax.

Minister Pat Rabbitte says that is not the service's purpose, but it will make things easier for Revenue.

zg3409

larchill wrote: »

Bloody hell, they’ve kept D6W – why could’nt this’ve been merged with D6

Because D6W was supposed to be in D24 (tallaght) and was never planned to be part of D6. The political solution was D6W (which from a post point of view is D24 or tallaght east) and not D6. Naturally making them D24 would not be the solution.

fricatus

larchill wrote: »

Bloody hell, they’ve kept D6W – why could’nt this’ve been merged with D6 & proceed from there with the unique code

"The Routing Key refers to the first three characters of an Eircode. The first character will always be a letter, followed by two numbers, except for D6W"

Could this cause a problem for software or websites? Initial error-checking at point of entry could be facilitated by a simple routine to check that the code begins LNN (L=letter, N=number). Adding an exception for D6W would complicate matters surely?

They could easily have used D60 for example. Why they didn't think of that is beyond me. :rolleyes:

Sam Russell

Using 7 digits is the basic problem as there is not enough code space for error checking (IMHO).

They should use at least 4 digits for locale, possible 5 digits. The random bit can them fill up the rest. With a 5 digit locale, you can get close to the address without knowing the actual post-code. For example, D04 will be the current D4 area but this is vast, and would be no use to anyone trying to find a particular address, but D04 ABxxx would at least get to within 100 m of the address. The xxx would allow 30,000 individual addresses but with error checking, this would reduce to perhaps 1,000 but give a 1 in 30 error check. [That is, you would have a 3% chance of getting a vaild address for an incorrect entry.]

This proposed system is a poor solution as it will need constant management and frequent updates. Unless the exact postcode is known, it is useless. Someone living in Ballybegmore, Ashlingtown, Co Mustard and has a postcode of A44 AB5C, only the A44 bit gives a locality, but the rest is random so the house could be anywhere. Absolutely useless.

Alun

Do we actually know for sure that the second part is 'random' as you say, and would need some kind of database lookup? Could it be that it is actually an encoded coordinate pair along the same lines as all the proposed location codes, just with the centre of each locality as a false origin? All you'd need then is a 'database', i.e. a simple list, of the false origins for each locality.

Sam Russell

We know between little and nothing. About the same as the Minister and the consortium.

zg3409

Alun wrote: »

Do we actually know for sure that the second part is 'random' as you say, and would need some kind of database lookup? Could it be that it is actually an encoded coordinate pair along the same lines as all the proposed location codes, just with the centre of each locality as a false origin? All you'd need then is a 'database', i.e. a simple list, of the false origins for each locality.

I was told it's random by an insider, deliberately so people need to purchase access to the data, and so will be required for every update, i.e. every single new house built. I hope an offline version will be availabe for car sat navs so they can work without an internet connection. Of course they then expect every sat nav company to offer the service, and also on old models as an update and not only on the newest models forcing any old models to be obsolete.

SPDUB

zg3409 wrote: »

Because D6W was supposed to be in D24 (tallaght) and was never planned to be part of D6. The political solution was D6W (which from a post point of view is D24 or tallaght east) and not D6. Naturally making them D24 would not be the solution.

An Post original plan was for 6W to be called D26 and prior to it's creation in 1984/85 was part of D6

However the D6 office became way too small for the volume of post and so a new office was created to take the more residential parts of D6

Part of the argument against calling it D26 was that it made it seem like it was beside Tallaght since districts become larger the further you get from the city centre

Trick of the Tail

Handy that there needs to be a database that has to be maintained; nice ongoing revenue for a private company for years into the future.

Whereas if they'd gone with a direct location lookup code there'd be no need, and it would have cost many millions less.

Trick of the Tail

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

Handy that there needs to be a database that has to be maintained; nice ongoing revenue for a private company for years into the future.

Whereas if they'd gone with a direct location lookup code there'd be no need, and it would have cost many millions less.

I would imagine that in most other countries the post code maintenance is just another background task within the post office system and therefore almost done at zero extra cost.

Here it has been separated out and is a highly visible & expensive service.

Carawaystick

Why would sat navs use this?
It only works for addresses capable of receiving post.

How would it work for say

the Phoenix park (Popes Cross, Wellington Monument, Magazine fort)?
The Curragh?
some forestry car park?
or even some town car park?
a Playground?
a place in a National park?

The Cush

Carawaystick wrote: »

Why would sat navs use this?
It only works for addresses capable of receiving post.

How would it work for say ....

I assume like Loc8 codes there will be an update for satnavs to use the Eircodes to get you, ambulances, couriers etc. to a specific address.

For all other locations, without a postcode, you will do as as you do now - search for an address/location.

I wonder how much it will cost to buy the eircode updates for your satnav, I just can't imagine them giving it away.

Moretill

Excerpts News release from Eircode

Dublin, Ireland – 28 April 2014 - Ireland will have one of the best postcode systems in the world when it launches in Spring 2015, says Eircode, the new Irish company that will manage the groundbreaking coding system. Eircode is also the name given to the unique location codes that will be allocated to every address in the country – 2.2m of them.

“We think Ireland will make a little bit of history next year with the launch of Eircode. ....Ireland is setting a new world standard with this design that will help bring many benefits to the daily lives of people, householders and businesses’, said Liam Duggan, Business Development Director of Capita Ireland, which is managing Eircode.

Mr Duggan said that the general public do not have to do anything about the new Eircode right now or be concerned about it. It would be provided free to every household next year and Eircode will be issuing more information to the public about the system early in 2015.....The Government has now officially agreed the technical design of Eircode and the company will get its operations underway to create an Eircode database of all 2.2m addresses and their unique Eircodes. They’ve already begun working with a number of government departments to encode the addresses in their databases.

An Post, as the country’s designated Universal Service Provider, is making preparations to use Eircode across its systems. Donal Connell, CEO of An Post, said that “An Post supports the development of this key piece of national infrastructure and will play its part in the implementation of the programme; we are carrying out extensive work in preparing our mails processing systems for the launch of Eircodes in Ireland.” said Mr Connell.

A number of businesses and industry groups, including Ibec and the Small Firms Association, have already welcomed the introduction of Eircode, highlighting the benefits it will bring to their business and to their customer services.

“We want to reach out to the business community during this year to let them know about the Eircode system, how it works, the address database that we’ll be creating that they can license to use, and the preparations that they may want to make. We’d encourage them to start their preparations early,” said Liam Duggan.

Mr Duggan said that Eircode would be issuing more information for businesses in the coming weeks and would be available via the company’s website. He said that Eircode would welcome hearing from businesses and organisations that wanted to help support and champion the introduction of Eircodes next year. Eircode is a trademark/brand of the Postcode Management Licence Holder, which was awarded by Dept of Communications, Energy & Natural Resources to Capita Business Support Services Ireland to operate. Capita is supported by BearingPoint, Autoaddress and Strand Communications with the implementation of Eircodes.

Curly Judge

Moretill wrote: »

Excerpts News release from Eircode

Dublin, Ireland – 28 April 2014 - Ireland will have one of the best postcode systems in the world when it launches in Spring 2015, says Eircode, the new Irish company that will manage the groundbreaking coding system. Eircode is also the name given to the unique location codes that will be allocated to every address in the country – 2.2m of them.

“We think Ireland will make a little bit of history next year with the launch of Eircode. ....Ireland is setting a new world standard with this design that will help bring many benefits to the daily lives of people, householders and businesses’, said Liam Duggan, Business Development Director of Capita Ireland, which is managing Eircode.

Mr Duggan said that the general public do not have to do anything about the new Eircode right now or be concerned about it. It would be provided free to every household next year and Eircode will be issuing more information to the public about the system early in 2015.....The Government has now officially agreed the technical design of Eircode and the company will get its operations underway to create an Eircode database of all 2.2m addresses and their unique Eircodes. They’ve already begun working with a number of government departments to encode the addresses in their databases.

An Post, as the country’s designated Universal Service Provider, is making preparations to use Eircode across its systems. Donal Connell, CEO of An Post, said that “An Post supports the development of this key piece of national infrastructure and will play its part in the implementation of the programme; we are carrying out extensive work in preparing our mails processing systems for the launch of Eircodes in Ireland.” said Mr Connell.

A number of businesses and industry groups, including Ibec and the Small Firms Association, have already welcomed the introduction of Eircode, highlighting the benefits it will bring to their business and to their customer services.

“We want to reach out to the business community during this year to let them know about the Eircode system, how it works, the address database that we’ll be creating that they can license to use, and the preparations that they may want to make. We’d encourage them to start their preparations early,” said Liam Duggan.

Mr Duggan said that Eircode would be issuing more information for businesses in the coming weeks and would be available via the company’s website. He said that Eircode would welcome hearing from businesses and organisations that wanted to help support and champion the introduction of Eircodes next year. Eircode is a trademark/brand of the Postcode Management Licence Holder, which was awarded by Dept of Communications, Energy & Natural Resources to Capita Business Support Services Ireland to operate. Capita is supported by BearingPoint, Autoaddress and Strand Communications with the implementation of Eircodes.

---

I note that Eircode are posting their marketing material now on Boards.ie without challenge!

They did the same on Politics.ie last night!

http://www.politics.ie/forum/current-affairs/147187-15m-spent-postcodes-105.html


Interestingly all said is about unsubstantiated claims of what they might do if Eircode is delivered.

Mr Duggan claims: "Ireland will have one of the best postcode systems in the world''
Now.. where have I heard that kind of statement before?
Oh yes..."Ireland is one of the safest places in the world to give birth".
Or.. "Our highly educated work force".
Anyone remember PPARS or "The best e-voting machines in the world"

Gimme a break!

We are heading full steam for another monumental cock up!

Elmo

Curly Judge wrote: »

Gimme a break!

We are heading full steam for another monumental cock up!

Perhaps Moretill might reply?

It would be provided free to every household next year and Eircode will be issuing more information to the public about the system early in 2015

Haven't we paid for it through taxes?

murphym7

Elmo wrote: »

Perhaps Moretill might reply?



Haven't we paid for it through taxes?

That made me laugh as well, we will get our postcode for free. What, do you think I was going to pay for a jumble of letters and numbers that will help others find me??? Dope's.

Sam Russell

It is free at the point of delivery!:D

ozmo

Moretill wrote: »

Ireland will have one of the best postcode systems in the world when it launches ... says Eircode, ... groundbreaking coding system.

Mighty fine words there - but to me it just looks like a 100 Million Euro Random number generator and paywall lookup database.

how this is supposed to work with Garmin/Tomtom devices and offline phone apps like Navagon - those with infrequent updates - cheap/free maps - No Internet and relatively Little memory?

I hope I'm wrong - but from the description they give - it Does Not look like a very smart solution to me at the moment - absolute minimal effort and not suitable for anything other than applying property tax.

- I wouldn't even consider it very useful for delivering letters given a badly typed or smudged one digit renders the whole postcode useless..

Curly Judge

ozmo wrote: »

Mighty fine words there - but to me it just looks like a 100 Million Euro Random number generator and paywall lookup database.

how this is supposed to work with Garmin/Tomtom devices and offline phone apps like Navagon - those with infrequent updates - cheap/free maps - No Internet and relatively Little memory?

I hope I'm wrong - but from the description they give - it Does Not look like a very smart solution to me at the moment - absolute minimal effort and not suitable for anything other than applying property tax.

- I wouldn't even consider it very useful for delivering letters given a badly typed or smudged one digit renders the whole postcode useless..

Lest we forget:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ppars-fiasco-as-costs-hit-220m-26567284.html

Geuze

Queries about the Routing Key


Will it always be 3 characters?

Will they all be "letter-digit-digit"?

Will the letter refer to the county?

If so, what about Kerry/Kildare/Kilkenny, etc..

ozmo

>Will it always be 3 characters?
aparently

>Will they all be "letter-digit-digit"?
no that would be too easy for websites to validate: D6W is one exception

>Will the letter refer to the county?
Only 26 letters of course - dont know if enough to go around once the letters that look too much like numbers or spell dodgy words are removed
Only saw Dublin codes detailed -

will there be new coveted postcodes for all cities now in the country?

Sam Russell

This what I posted in Oct 2013:

What is in the current proposal.

Database

Record - GPRN NO; Address; Post code; Geo co-ordinates.

So it is a simple look-up database. If you have the address, or the postcode, you get the Geo co-ordinates. You would need the database to do this along with an index.

Say 2m addresses, say 1024 bytes per address, that means you need 2 Gigabytes, plus a few indexes. Not trivial.

TeaServer

Sam Russell wrote: »

This what I posted in Oct 2013:
So it is a simple look-up database. If you have the address, or the postcode, you get the Geo co-ordinates. You would need the database to do this along with an index.

Say 2m addresses, say 1024 bytes per address, that means you need 2 Gigabytes, plus a few indexes. Not trivial.

But, you need most of that data for an existing system. You are only adding 7 bytes to each record for the postcode - that's not a big deal in storage terms. The issue is the access to the postcode to address data in the first place...

Sam Russell

TeaServer wrote: »

But, you need most of that data for an existing system. You are only adding 7 bytes to each record for the postcode - that's not a big deal in storage terms. The issue is the access to the postcode to address data in the first place...

Exactly.

The point I am making is that this 'new' 'ground-breaking' sytem is nothing of the sort. If you need the database to use it, which you do, it is useless for the average punter. The code need to be more than a random number, otherwise it is encrypted - just what we do not want.

At the very least, the unencrypted part need to bring you to a locale, nearby the exact location, without the need for a database.

The emphasis on a 7 bit code is missing the point. We need to be able to deduce where an address is from just the code, not from the internet.

a65b2cd

Sam Russell wrote: »

Exactly.

At the very least, the unencrypted part need to bring you to a locale, nearby the exact location, without the need for a database.

So can you give us an example postcode that would find a farm house in the middle of a Mayo townland without any technology or a map?

ozmo

a65b2cd wrote: »

So can you give us an example postcode that would find a farm house in the middle of a Mayo townland without any technology or a map?

National Grid (used in NI and UK), would do that.
The first letter gives you the rough area and each subsequent number gives you finer detail. You use as many numbers as you like depending on the percision you want. No computer needed.

Eg. Giant's Causeway is: C954 453



Loc8 is similiar but requires a device(pc/mobile etc) to work out the location, but no internet or database is needed, which is important.