National Postcodes to be introduced

a65b2cd

Yes but you would need a map! That's a lot of 1:50000 maps! I would prefer the new postcode if your code by itself, with nothing else, cannot locate the farmhouse.

Sheldons Brain

a65b2cd wrote: »

Yes but you would need a map! That's a lot of 1:50000 maps! I would prefer the new postcode if your code by itself, with nothing else, cannot locate the farmhouse.

Without a map you cannot locate anything, unless you had a 100 word description of how to get there.

Everyone has a map on their phone these days.

ozmo

a65b2cd wrote: »

Yes but you would need a map! That's a lot of 1:50000 maps! I would prefer the new postcode if your code by itself, with nothing else, cannot locate the farmhouse.

A postcode is not routing information to your house - they all relate back somehow to a geographic point or area - then you do with that what you will.

The issue is some better postcodes are more useful - you can make them up from your present location (useful in emergencies) or you can get close if you have a partial postcode(happens) or you can use them to refer to a larger location than a house (drop last few digits) - or you can use them to refer to non-houses (eg. a bridge or monument or park). And you can have them on signage so everyone knows what it is.
And obviously free to use is preferred.

Eircode is none of the above.

You can always use the Plain House Address if you want map free routing information.

Javan

ozmo wrote: »

Not sure what you mean - a postcode is not routing information to your house - they all relate back to a geographic point or area - then you do with that what you will.

The issue is some better postcodes are more useful - you can make them up from your present location (useful in emergencies) or you can get close if you have a partial postcode(happens) or you can use them to refer to a larger location than a house (drop last few digits) - or you can use them to refer to non-houses (eg. a bridge or monument or park). And you can have them on signage so everyone knows what it is.
And obviously free to use is preferred. Eircode is none of the above.

You can always use the Plain House Address if you want map free routing information.

The problem with Eircodes is that they do not seem to relate to a geographic point or area. The 'routing code' is one thing, but that is less than half the code. Most of the code is a random number. The system is deliberately designed so that adjacent locations will NOT have adjacent or similar codes.
So you either have whatever (probably fairly large / populated) area that is covered by the routing code; or a mailbox. There is nothing in between.
... and it is a mailbox, not a bridge or monument or park. It is not useful on signage (except perhaps the routing code).

Eircodes as described are a badly designed system that will meet a very narrow set of requirements but completely fail to be an extensible, open, general-purpose geolocation system.

Sam Russell

It appears to me that Eircode is trying to eliminate the '14A' problem of slot-in addresses. If that is its sole design aim, it is a disasterous decision.

fricatus

Sam Russell wrote: »

It appears to me that Eircode is trying to eliminate the '14A' problem of slot-in addresses. If that is its sole design aim, it is a disasterous decision.

Could they not just leave lots of spare capacity?

A letter and six digits (say using 22 letters and all 10 digits) allows for 22 million codes in theory, and many more if the last bit is alphanumeric.

Surely the first five characters could be used systematically to pinpoint areas of the country with up to 50 addresses? That would leave plenty of spare codes available if places got more densely built up, and the last two characters would in themselves probably have sufficient capacity to avoid this requirement.

Sam Russell

Quite so. They could use the first, say, 5 characters to give a locale (that is nearly there) and use the last two characters could be random to solve this problem and also give an element of check. However, that is not what has been suggested (as far as I have heard). They appear to be using the last five digits as random numbers. Nuts.

This may of course not even been decided or designed yet, but random numbers have been mentioned.

ozmo

Also - amazing if true - Im reading elsewhere the consultants whose job it is is to decide if this code is "fit for purpose" have not actually been chosen yet (Tendered Dec 2013) - has this solution been fully analysed by all interested parties I wonder?

fricatus

Sam Russell wrote: »

They appear to be using the last five digits as random numbers. Nuts.

This may of course not even been decided or designed yet, but random numbers have been mentioned.

That is absolutely cracked. Parcel delivery companies, insurers, etc., and the government's own statisticians and planners could make very good use of a code that targeted a geographical area of 20-50 houses. If there's a random component after that, then I'm sure that's fine, as long as the emergency services could still reliably use all the code.

However having a geographical component that corresponds to D24 or D15 for example would render it as good as meaningless. Why they're even preserving the Dublin zone codes is beyond me. They should use D00 to D99, and indeed could use 5-6 different initial letters for Dublin, if they were thinking sensibly about this.

Sam Russell

fricatus wrote: »

They should use D00 to D99, and indeed could use 5-6 different initial letters for Dublin, if they were thinking sensibly about this.

That is optimistic of you - sensible - ha!

ozmo wrote: »

Also - amazing if true - Im reading elsewhere the consultants whose job it is is to decide if this code is "fit for purpose" have not actually been chosen yet (Tendered Dec 2013) - has this solution been fully analysed by all interested parties I wonder?

Unfortunately, all the Consultants are still busy with Irish Water and will not be available until later in the year.

SPDUB

Sam Russell wrote: »

They appear to be using the last five digits as random numbers. Nuts.

This may of course not even been decided or designed yet, but random numbers have been mentioned.

Where is this claim about random numbers coming from ?

I don't know whether it is true or not but it's said on this thread without people specifying where this "information" comes from .

It's a major claim to make though so could we please have some link or reasoning ( why you think it's true ) to back it up

Sam Russell

SPDUB wrote: »

Where is this claim about random numbers coming from ?

I don't know whether it is true or not but it's said on this thread without people specifying where this "information" comes from .

It's a major claim to make though so could we please have some link or reasoning ( why you think it's true ) to back it up

http://www.openpostcode.org/

Curly Judge

marmurr1916

Geuze wrote: »

Will it always be 3 characters?

Yes.

Geuze wrote: »

Will they all be "letter-digit-digit"?

Yes, apart from D6W in Dublin.

Geuze wrote: »

Will the letter refer to the county?

No, apart from Dublin where the Routing Key will start with D.

The most sensible way to use the other 25 letters would be to allocate them according to An Post delivery areas.

They could also be allocated to individual counties, without the letter necessarily referring to the county, with some exceptions if possible!

For example, Z could be used for Co. Donegal, but C could be used for Co. Cork and Cork city!

From the eircode website:

What will the Routing Key look like for where I live?

The Routing Key refers to the first three characters of an Eircode. The first character will always be a letter, followed by two numbers, except for D6W.

The letters will not be linked to a county or city name in English or Irish. The existing postal districts that cover areas within Dublin will no longer use the city title 'Dublin' but will in the future use the letter 'D' and their relevant numbers (e.g. D01, D05, D6W, D24, etc).

The same Routing Key will be shared by several towns and townlands, so will become familiar in the same way that prefixes on landline telephone numbers indicate what part of the country the phone is located.

http://www.eircode.ie/faqs.html

BowWow

The most sensible way to use the other 25 letters would be to allocate them according to An Post delivery areas.

Probably only 23 as I doubt they'll use I or O

Sam Russell

I have a fear we are entering into another Electronic Voting Debacle, or another PayPars.

The problem with the voting, was they tried to solve the wrong problem. It was not electronic VOTING - it was electronic COUNTING. As a result they ordered loads of (shiny) machines, but let the (foreign) supplier own the software. The hardware they bought was several generations old and was already out of date, and foreign supplier did not understand the voting process. If anyone was doing the project now, it would be based on the iPad or simillar, and they would make sure the software was owned by the state.

The postcode project has been given to a foreign company with a history of failed projects. It is completely secret, and judging by what is known so far (random numbers, fixed format with holes in it, inability to extend to landmarks, on-going costs, etc.,) - it will fail abysmally. All it will take to fail will be if An Post or the Revenue decides it is not fir for purpose, which is likely.

PayPars anyone?

ozmo

Sam Russell wrote: »

The postcode project has been given to a foreign company with a history of failed projects. It is completely secret, and judging by what is known so far (random numbers, fixed format with holes in it, inability to extend to landmarks, on-going costs, etc.,) - it will fail abysmally.

Yes - Its a London based company - spun to look like an Irish company.
But its bought now with contracts signed for the next 10 years - we will probably be the only country with three postcodes
- the official one for tax forms
- and the two useful ones that gps and emergency services uses.

There is still a glimmer of hope it could be other than what we suspect- hopefully there is some order in the apparently random code - found this on twitter - the guys that are doing some of the software say

@openpostcode Patience please.  When more information is released
I'm sure you'll be happier.
My hard working team don't deserve insults.

Elmo

ozmo wrote: »

But its bought now with contracts signed for the next 10 years - we will probably be the only country with three postcodes
- the official one for tax forms
- and the two useful ones that gps and emergency services uses.

Is the tax form one different to the LPT Property ID?

TheBustedFlush

Elmo wrote: »

Is the tax form one different to the LPT Property ID?

Three postcodes?

Elmo

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Three postcodes?

Maybe 4!

ozmo

Elmo wrote: »

Is the tax form one different to the LPT Property ID?

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Three postcodes?

Quick summary:

The new Eircode seems to give the tax collectors all they wanted - a public unique ref to each home - remember all the fuss over Government not being allowed use the ESB address database for the property tax? Full details still pending but looks like a webservice Pay-to-lookup database that will earn someone 27 million minimum to create and maintain.

Loc8 is used now by the emergency services and Garmin devices and I've seen it on some companies business cards -
Its has lots good points, including offline usage. Its currently operational. Free to use - but It does appear to have a licence required to be obtained by anyone writing applications that use it to convert postcode to/from a location?

Openpostcode.org totally free open source - offline so no database or Internet required (its an encoded cordinate point) - but I dont know where if anywhere its used apart from here: http://opcie.org where it works impressively well. But wont identify homes in an apartment block like I believe the other two could do, in the current version anyway.

GoCode another 7 digit proprietary code that also supports locating non homes. www.gocode.ie

There may be more options.

Elmo

ozmo wrote: »

Quick summary:

The new Eircode seems to give the tax collectors all they wanted - a public unique ref to each home - remember all the fuss over Government not being allowed use the ESB address database for the property tax? Full details still pending but looks like a webservice Pay-to-lookup database that will earn someone 27 million minimum to create and maintain.

Doesn't the property ID do that? Isn't that in effect also a postal code. or a unique ref to each home for tax collectors.

TheBustedFlush

ozmo wrote: »

Quick summary:

The new Eircode seems to give the tax collectors all they wanted - a public unique ref to each home - remember all the fuss over Government not being allowed use the ESB address database for the property tax? Full details still pending but looks like a webservice Pay-to-lookup database that will earn someone 27 million minimum to create and maintain.

Loc8 is used now by the emergency services and Garmin devices and I've seen it on some companies business cards -
Its has lots good points, including offline usage. Its currently operational. Free to use - but It does appear to have a licence required to be obtained by anyone writing applications that use it to convert postcode to/from a location?

Openpostcode totally free open source - offline so no database or Internet required (its an encoded cordinate point) - but I dont know where if anywhere its used apart from here: where it works impressively well. But wont identify homes in an apartment block like I believe the other two could do, in the current version anyway.


There may be more options.

Loc8 is used by the emergency services. Really?? Which ones? Presumably it has built up a database as well from people who register with it. If you need a licence to convert the code, then it's just the same as any other postcode - they all have to have databases to be useful.
The tax collectors don't need another ref number - they already have one - LPT!
openpostcode is a nice name. trips off the tongue.

ozmo

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

If you need a licence to convert the code, then it's just the same as any other postcode - they all have to have databases to be useful.

Nope - only Eircode has a database - and thats one of the major flaws - all the other postcodes can be worked out (or created) offline as they are formula based - and so there is No database to keep updated each time a new house is built.

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

The tax collectors don't need another ref number - they already have one - LPT!

And many other databases - the ESB database, Electorial register, The Census ID, the Anpost & OSI Geodirectory database.....

Don't know why Eircode are making a big deal of it - they will just copy paste this data into a blank database as far as I can tell.

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

openpostcode is a nice name. trips off the tongue.

Not the snappiest of names - but its free.
And more importantly it goes to show how its possible is for a mathematician/geographic information specialist, to come up with a useful postcode system. All the details are on the page.
Eircode on the other hand seems to have been designed by a sales team.

spuddy

The existing postal districts that cover areas within Dublin will no longer use the city title 'Dublin' but will in the future use the letter 'D' and their relevant numbers (e.g. D01, D05, D6W, D24, etc).

http://www.eircode.ie/faqs.html

What do you think will happen with Dun Laoghaire, Malahide, Stillorgan, Swords...? Areas in Dublin which have no postal district today.

Could we see:
a) codes following the standard random convention (A65...)
b) new Dxx codes? (D19, D26...)
c) integration into existing Dxx codes? (eg Stillorgan becomes D14)

ozmo

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Loc8 is used by the emergency services. Really?? Which ones? P

As requested - Attached.


I have nothing to do with any postcode company - I'm just a bit surprised by how simplistic the new code thats chosen appears to be, when so much prior work exists and was being used for years that they could have learned from.

thirty-six dragons

a65b2cd wrote: »

So can you give us an example postcode that would find a farm house in the middle of a Mayo townland without any technology or a map?

The OpenPostcode can actually be deduced from its logo alone. It wouldn't be normal or advisable in all circumstances but I imagine people would get used to rough approximations and then detailed locations based on the 25 character grid. But the point is that the code itself contains the location. Technically nothing else is needed, technically.

Declaration of interest: I designed the OpenPostcode.

thirty-six dragons

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Loc8 is used by the emergency services. Really?? Which ones? Presumably it has built up a database as well from people who register with it. If you need a licence to convert the code, then it's just the same as any other postcode - they all have to have databases to be useful.
The tax collectors don't need another ref number - they already have one - LPT!
openpostcode is a nice name. trips off the tongue.

The name is changeable. I'd go for just "postcode" to be honest. We don't need a brand on a blooming code.

Elmo

thirty-six dragons wrote: »

The name is changeable. I'd go for just "postcode" to be honest. We don't need a brand on a blooming code.

the key is the brand do you know how much it cost to name something and give it a logo. Brand is key. :rolleyes:

thirty-six dragons

ozmo wrote: »

Quick summary:
Openpostcode.org totally free open source - offline so no database or Internet required (its an encoded cordinate point) - but I dont know where if anywhere its used apart from here: http://opcie.org where it works impressively well. But wont identify homes in an apartment block like I believe the other two could do, in the current version anyway.
.

Is used in the new national code for the Yemen, www.mefso.org. The character set is different for Arabic. It is also used in backoffice databases for some utility companies. Unfortunately I was only informed on the basis of a confidentially agreement to protect business interests: which is allowable under the LGPL license. Everyone is free to do what they wish with it. But some people may have customer ID numbers that are actually openpostcodes for their address to aid service delivery already. All I know is that it works and saves effort and aids efficiency.

As with other countries, apartments and duplexes are individually identified by reference to apartment or floor number as well as the building location. Eircode stands alone in identifying individual households at a location: something which the Data Protection Commissioner may have to examine. It becomes personal data once you identify a single person household. Not something you'll want to plug into the Tesco store locator or give to a fella conducting a survey on the street.