National Postcodes to be introduced

ozmo

thirty-six dragons wrote: »

Eircode stands alone in identifying individual households at a location: something which the Data Protection Commissioner may have to examine. It becomes personal data once you identify a single person household. Not something you'll want to plug into the Tesco store locator or give to a fella conducting a survey on the street.

ooooh - There are a lot of websites in UK where you enter your postcode and it tells you the nearest shop or whatever, or to prove you are from uk - all perfectly innocent and useful as its not unique to you.

Sites like reporting broken street furniture or reporting Vandalism - maybe zoom some random map - get an house insurance quote - check the local weather even.

If that becomes commonplace here - To enter your full Eircode postcode will identify you directly - thats a heck of a lot of info in 7 characters you are giving away for free - expect possible
targeted junk mail/ physical callouts to follow shortly based on your search.
- even telephone calls are available to them then if you are not ex-directory.

a65b2cd

Eircode has some advantages:

- it will be the only postcode appearing on letters and parcels;
- householders will know their Eircode if you ask them;
- businesses will have it on their websites;
- complete coverage of over 2 million households and non-households;
- it will be supported by the most up-to-date register;
- etc.

I wonder which postcode new Apps will be written for? Time to move on guys and plan for a known future.

thirty-six dragons

a65b2cd wrote: »

Eircode has some advantages:

- it will be the only postcode appearing on letters and parcels;
- householders will know their Eircode if you ask them;
- businesses will have it on their websites;
- complete coverage of over 2 million households and non-households;
- it will be supported by the most up-to-date register;
- etc.

I wonder which postcode new Apps will be written for? Time to move on guys and plan for a known future.

My work is done here. But as a citizen I'm not happy with Eircode. As a householder I will not want to give you my Eircode unless you are my bank or the tax-man. There is no bloody way I'm sticking it into a store-locator. Quiet apart from being the modern postcode it is anything but: it is forceably a mail-only address code. We may as well have used our phone numbers and had done with it years ago.

So no, don't tell anyone to stop questioning. Time for you to go to bed I think.

thirty-six dragons

a65b2cd wrote: »

Eircode has some advantages:
- it will be the only postcode appearing on letters and parcels;
- householders will know their Eircode if you ask them;
- businesses will have it on their websites;
- complete coverage of over 2 million households and non-households;
- it will be supported by the most up-to-date register;
- etc.

These are not advantages to Eircode:

1. All postcodes are put on letters.
2. All householders everywhere in the world know their postcode.
3. All businesses everywhere in the world use a postcode. Every postcode would have that.
4. Households are covered by addressing systems all over the world. For a location code it is simply flat number plus postcode. Eircode's inclusion of both together has some serious problems. Non-households is also actually a bit of an issue for Eircode.
5. It wouldn't be the most up-to-date register. It can't be. No database system can ever be. The other codes don't even need the register in the first place.

These were a very poor argument for a code that we have been waiting and reading reports on since 2005 and before!

27m Euro!

thirty-six dragons

a65b2cd wrote: »

I wonder which postcode new Apps will be written for? Time to move on guys and plan for a known future.

How will apps be written for this database-only code? This really will be the interesting part.

Javan

Given the eircode system as described:
- where the routing code covers a large area and there is no way to specify an area smaller than a routing code and larger than a mailbox
- where the only mechanism for converting from an eircode to a location is via a database lookup

What will be the process for adding the mailboxes that they miss in the first pass?
Who will be charged for the system (will there ever be a direct charge to the end user, for example to register a new mailbox)?
What will be the database refresh rate, especially on unconnected devices like satnavs?
How do I get a new mailbox added to the database?
How do I get a non-mailbox location added to the database?

There are so many possible failures in the system as described, but for my money the most critical one is the emergency services use case.
Say I have a small business: I have an office at home and that is the company registered address. A mile down the road I have a workshop where all the work is done. If there is a workplace accident it is most likely to be at the workshop. This workshop has no mailbox, so it has no postcode. How do I get the ambulance on-site quickly?

A properly open, extensible and general-purpose system does not have these problems:
- there is no database, so the questions about adding to or maintaining the database simply do not apply.
- the cost of implementation becomes trivial. With no database maintenance cost you just have to make the algorithm available to the users. You can even license implementations of it for commercial use.

Victor

ozmo wrote: »

ooooh - There are a lot of websites in UK where you enter your postcode and it tells you the nearest shop or whatever, or to prove you are from uk - all perfectly innocent and useful as its not unique to you.

Usually only the first few characters. In any case, UK postcodes only represent blocks of properties, not individual homes.

Elmo

a65b2cd wrote: »

Eircode has some advantages:

- it will be the only postcode appearing on letters and parcels;
- householders will know their Eircode if you ask them;
- businesses will have it on their websites;
- complete coverage of over 2 million households and non-households;
- it will be supported by the most up-to-date register;
- etc.

I wonder which postcode new Apps will be written for? Time to move on guys and plan for a known future.

I don't have much of a problem with Postcodes, but the money spent on promoting postcodes.

If I type in the name of my village with the question where is the nearest pharmacy I will get one in the village, if I am looking for a 24hr pharmacy it will point me to a pharmacy in towns close by, I don't need to give my full address for that.

ozmo

Elmo wrote: »

If I type in the name of my village with the question where is the nearest pharmacy I will get one in the village,

Address lookups are not accurate and can never be as there is no consistent pattern to Irish Address's- (eg. how many villages/townlands are called Glebe in Ireland? Even right next to each other)
Postcodes are supposed to remove this. In UK entering your full postcode or partial postcode allows you to use your postcode but still be anonymous.

Elmo wrote: »

I don't need to give my full address for that.

But giving your Irish postcode will be giving your full address.
And thats the point - it wont be safe using postcodes on websites like you can in UK and other countries.

Shortening it to the first 3 characters might be an option but the areas will be Huge. Unlike the USA or UK one where you can shorten your Postcode to make it less accurate as required.

Elmo

If your in a small town or village the amenities in your area are going to be limited. If I was based in Glebe in Co. Laois I'd look for services in Co. Laois or surrounding areas, or the nearest big town to me.

As I said I am not for or against post codes, I have a problem with the government spending so much on the promotion of post codes, when it could be done in a cheap more efficient manner.

Others here are arguing that the government are wasting money on new codes when there are already existing ones, they seem to be very knowledgeable about those post codes in general. In that respect I have an issue with the LPT having a unique 10 digital code, which was developed in conjunction with the following government departments:- Revenue, Finance, Reform, Communications and Environment. Surely joined up thinking would have made the LPT code the post code.

Knowing DCERN's work on the Digital Switchover they will over spend, and the postal division of DCERN is the same division as the Broadcating division. They only thing the learnt from DSO was to make sure they got a website from the contractor.

SpaceTime

If they already have a database for the LPT, the logical thing would be to translate the LPT code into a shortened alphanumeric "Eircode"

However, this looks like it will lack the flexibility of the other systems like Loc8 codes that are far more GPS-friendly and don't need a database.

I like the idea that you can assign one of their codes to any geographic location, be it a house or a lump of rock in a field somewhere in Connemara.

TheBustedFlush

SpaceTime wrote: »

If they already have a database for the LPT, the logical thing would be to translate the LPT code into a shortened alphanumeric "Eircode"

However, this looks like it will lack the flexibility of the other systems like Loc8 codes that are far more GPS-friendly and don't need a database.

I like the idea that you can assign one of their codes to any geographic location, be it a house or a lump of rock in a field somewhere in Connemara.

Yu might like the idea, but if you just want to look up the loc8 code for a particular address, how do you without access to some kind of a database?

Victor

Victor wrote: »

Usually only the first few characters. In any case, UK postcodes only represent blocks of properties, not individual homes.

Which is why it is so useful as a "link" for information about local area, as the properties under an individual postcode tend to be of the same type, if you drop the last character then you get a small number of streets of a similar "type".

This is where the postcode Lottery comes into affect.

Will the last characters in the new code allow this?

TheBustedFlush

Deleted User wrote: »

Which is why it is so useful as a "link" for information about local area, as the properties under an individual postcode tend to be of the same type, if you drop the last character then you get a small number of streets of a similar "type".

This is where the postcode Lottery comes into affect.

Will the last characters in the new code allow this?

Clearly not - the balance to be struck probably is on the one hand, giving a common identity to a group of houses in an area for positive reasons as some have outlined above, and, on the other hand, unintentionally, creating an element of postcode snobbery/denigration by grouping particular houses, streets, estates with a common identifiable postcode - "the XXX" area/estate/sinkhole/danger area/leafy enclave, etc, etc.

recedite

thirty-six dragons wrote: »

We may as well have used our phone numbers and had done with it years ago.

Good point. Or we could have used the MPRN number of the property, the property tax number, or any one of the many pre-existing random reference numbers that are already used to "look-up" databases.

ozmo

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Yu might like the idea, but if you just want to look up the loc8 code for a particular address, how do you without access to some kind of a database?

Its a formula rather than a lookup - the letters of the postcode can be quickly converted into the Lon/Lat cordinates that a GPS or other device needs.

Openpostcode has kindly given their formula free on this page if you wish more information: http://www.openpostcode.org/home/calculations

AFAICS, Loc8 and GoCode are similar - Postcodes are free to distribute - but the formula to create and decode them are not public or free. Think of it as zipped with a password. GPS or PhoneApp manufacturers need licence(pay) for the code and password to build into their app. You would need check their terms for details.

All these formula based postcodes dont need a database or internet. This makes it possible fit inside a low cost Garmin device with limited memory and can never go out of date.
also they allow a non internet GPS or phoneApp (which is important when travelling to avoid roaming charges or in areas of low coverage or for security reasons even maybe).


It remains to be seen how Eircode propose to do this without having to install the whole postcode database in the App. But I am looking forward to finding out.

SpaceTime

The state's going to want to recoup any costs for rollout and maintenance and probably generate a bit of revenue too, so they're always going to be tempted to come up with a non-free system.

Sam Russell

SpaceTime wrote: »

The state's going to want to recoup any costs for rollout and maintenance and probably generate a bit of revenue too, so they're always going to be tempted to come up with a non-free system.

Obviously that is true, but if they did not waste the money in the first place, they would not need to recoup it. An Post already had a system.

Curly Judge

I 've just come across this on Facebook.
I think it makes interesting reading.

https://www.facebook.com/Loc8Code/photos/pb.139089036120361.-2207520000.1399475714./830088447020413/?type=3&theater

TheBustedFlush

Curly Judge wrote: »

I 've just come across this on Facebook.
I think it makes interesting reading.

That is really quite funny.

Why would anyone living on a street in Dublin 12 suddenly want a code that starts NP5? At least the other example starts with something recognisable as the area they live in.

thirty-six dragons

SpaceTime wrote: »

The state's going to want to recoup any costs for rollout and maintenance and probably generate a bit of revenue too, so they're always going to be tempted to come up with a non-free system.

We pay taxes to fund the State. We shouldn't have to buy it back again.

thirty-six dragons

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

That is really quite funny.

Why would anyone living on a street in Dublin 12 suddenly want a code that starts NP5? At least the other example starts with something recognisable as the area they live in.

And those of the rest of us not living in D12 or D-whatever, do we get a choice?

TheBustedFlush

thirty-six dragons wrote: »

And those of the rest of us not living in D12 or D-whatever, do we get a choice?

Yes.

thirty-six dragons

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Yes.

Absolutely no we don't. D is for Dublin and random for everywhere else. Them's the rules. No choice. Seems it is too important not to offend D4 or D6W (now there's a history of fudged coding nearly as awful as 141 and 142 on the registration plates - Ireland can't do rational, there's always some special interest group spoils the pattern).

Plus you either give your unique household tag, now under the remit of Data Protection law, or you give an enormous arbitrary area covering multiple towns and half of a county. No choice.

Quite easily the most pointless postcode ever invented.

SpaceTime

thirty-six dragons wrote: »

We pay taxes to fund the State. We shouldn't have to buy it back again.

I'm not saying that's what should happen or it's rightbut the state increasingly thinks like a business. Everything's a potential source of revenue.

Endless little charges here there and everywhere.

antoobrien

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'm not saying that's what should happen or it's rightbut the state increasingly thinks like a business. Everything's a potential source of revenue.

Endless little charges here there and everywhere.

Given the amount of tax paid (low) and unions refusing to let costs come down, what do you expect? (Rhetorical question)

Sam Russell wrote: »

An Post already had a system.

As so have most of the car insurance companies.

Uepped

I really hope these codes end up being a total failure because i hate the propaganda i have heard about them from government and RTE.

Impetus

The proposed "Eircode" is yet another instance of Ireland shooting itself in the foot by re-inventing the wheel. Bureaucratic, Expensive. Will seldom be used. Hard to remember other peoples' postcodes.

The code is not standards compliant - mail sorting is international and online web based transactions depends on these standards. The Dublin codes will overlap with German postcodes (eg D03nnn) and the Cork codes with Cuba (C01nnn).

Virtually every other European country uses numeric only codes which appear before the name of the town and point to a postal zone or at most a cluster of properties. One can thus give one's postcode without disclosing exactly where one lives etc.

All numeric codes have far more success in machine recognition applications, and can easily be entered in numeric keypads (eg on phones). It does not one help one find an address - it would be far more logical to give every street a name (including in rural townlands) and a km based house number (eg house number 200 is 900m from house 1100 - as is used in French and other country rural addresses.

It will do nothing to speed the delivery of mail in Ireland, which is one of the slowest in Europe. The system takes no advantage of modern computer technology and puts the entire burden on the victim user. A postcode designed by bureaucratic, idiot civil servants with zero focus on benefits.

Switzerland has 4 digit postcodes for about twice the population of Ireland, for the public to use, and a hidden 6 digit sub code offering greater granularity which can point to any street and house number – which is used by business and government to uniquely identify each property. In a computer application one enters the postcode, and the rest of the address fills in automatically on the screen as one types the first few characters of the road name. eg one one a website search or similar refer to all of Zurich as 8000 or specify a particular zone in the city 8038 (Wollishoven) or a big company / organisation 8092 (ETH/ Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule Zürich). You can use these codes at a ticket machine to specify where you wish to travel to or on a website to find the nearest retailer etc. Simple, user-friendly. A foreign concept to the people in the CSO and the Department of Communications etc.

The Irish system, like the British system, is going to be copyrighted and sold – rather than downloadable free from a website as is available intelligently administered countries.

A similar disease to the water meter. Dublin and Cork top the charts when it comes to water loss through public pipe network leakage in Europe. Instead of charging each house (eg on their electricity bill for example – to save the cost of creating a separate billing bureaucracy) a fixed charge per house for water (eg €200 a year) or even an electricity consumption related water charge – big house, bigger electricity bill – probably bigger water consumption too – they spend a billion or so installing water meters (which will only reduce water consumption by about 10%) – instead of spending the efficiently billed water charge on fixing the public water plumbing.

Idiots.

Impetus

thirty-six dragons wrote: »

Absolutely no we don't. D is for Dublin and random for everywhere else. Them's the rules. No choice. Seems it is too important not to offend D4 or D6W (now there's a history of fudged coding nearly as awful as 141 and 142 on the registration plates - Ireland can't do rational, there's always some special interest group spoils the pattern).

Plus you either give your unique household tag, now under the remit of Data Protection law, or you give an enormous arbitrary area covering multiple towns and half of a county. No choice.

Quite easily the most pointless postcode ever invented.

It is like a PPSN rather than a postcode. The German constitution forbids assigning a person number to each individual, and I suspect if they ever decided to assign a postcode to each house, it would also be illegal for similar reasons. To prevent Hitler types ever again.

The "Data Protection" commissioner should resign for allowing this appalling government abuse of private property and personal information rights to go ahead. Bureaucratic corruption of the highest form.

Rather than "Eircode" it should perhaps be called the "airhead code"!

Leonard Shelby

Impetus wrote: »

It is like a PPSN rather than a postcode. The German constitution forbids assigning a person number to each individual, and I suspect if they ever decided to assign a postcode to each house, it would also be illegal for similar reasons. To prevent Hitler types ever again.

The "Data Protection" commissioner should resign for allowing this appalling government abuse of private property and personal information rights to go ahead. Bureaucratic corruption of the highest form.

Rather than "Eircode" it should perhaps be called the "airhead code"!

Congratulations Impetus, proving Godwin's Law once again...