National Postcodes to be introduced

Elmo

Sam Russell wrote: »

Saorview - RTE/2RN spend a fortune advertising the 'new' system instead of puting the message onto the affected screens for free.

Don't forget that dcenr also ran a separate campaign for DSO

Sam Russell

Elmo wrote: »

Don't forget that dcenr also ran a separate campaign for DSO

I counted them both as one. It was stupid to do any of this, and 2RN learned from this by not spending anything on the retune required for the second mux.

Because of the inept launch of Saorview, it went unnoticed by even the Minister, who turned up for the second launch (which was actually the shut-down). A shut down of the MW transmitter went unnoticed and unmissed.

I cannot think of any public decision of any type that was made in the last 20 years that was a 'good' decision, nor can I think of any Irish institution that works at a world-standard of excellence (with the possible exception of the NTMA).

Irish water? HSE? Paypars? Electronic voting machines? I get ill thinking about them.

And here we go again, Postcodes.

The Cush

Concern expressed over privacy of proposed new postcodes - Data Protection Commissioner says the unique seven-digit postcode ‘goes beyond what an address is’

http://www.thejournal.ie/data-protection-report-1461038-May2014/

Sam Russell

If the last 2 digits were random, then the 5 digit code could be used for location (a locale) that would give a region of several hundred metres or a few dozen homes. Having 4 digits random is nonsense and renders the whole thing useless.

If the normal use of the code was restricted to those 5 digits, I think most of the complaints would disappear. However, we still need road addresses outside of these codes. If I want to serve papers on a company that has an address of Wizzbang Ltd, Ballybegmore, Lessington, County Moreorless, I would have no way of finding it. If it had a street address, of say 124 Little Road, Ballybegmore,etc., I could find it. It is like trying to hand deliver to a PO Box.

TheBustedFlush

The Cush wrote: »

[Concern expressed over privacy of proposed new postcodes - Data Protection Commissioner says the unique seven-digit postcode ‘goes beyond what an address is’

So any location code that pinpoints the address of a building, or any code that identifies any building belonging to anyone is dodgy in case someone can work out you live there. Because companies might make use of it and infringe your rights in some way.

Just as well I live in:

33, DPC Avenue
Nonsense Town
Co. Bewildered
ABC VAGU3

Thankfully no one else has this address except:

eircom
O2
Vodafone
ESB
Bord Gais
Revenue
Education
Agriculture
Social Protection
Trasnport
Tesco
eBay
Google
Garmin
Tomtom
ICS
BOI
AIB
Mick the butcher
and Larry the bookie.

Other than that, I'm safe.

The data protection commissioner has saved us all as he heads off into retirement accompanied by the sound of a stable door closing as horse hooves resound in the distance......

Javan

Sam Russell wrote: »

If the last 2 digits were random, then the 5 digit code could be used for location (a locale) that would give a region of several hundred metres or a few dozen homes. Having 4 digits random is nonsense and renders the whole thing useless.

If the normal use of the code was restricted to those 5 digits, I think most of the complaints would disappear. However, we still need road addresses outside of these codes. If I want to serve papers on a company that has an address of Wizzbang Ltd, Ballybegmore, Lessington, County Moreorless, I would have no way of finding it. If it had a street address, of say 124 Little Road, Ballybegmore,etc., I could find it. It is like trying to hand deliver to a PO Box.

The problem with any scheme that includes a random number component is that it ultimately requires a database lookup to resolve the full randomized postcode to a precise location.
Any scheme that requires a database lookup will have very predictable problems: increased cost, inaccuracies, data refresh lag, inability to address anything that is not in the database, etc.

TheBustedFlush

Javan wrote: »

The problem with any scheme that includes a random number component is that it ultimately requires a database lookup to resolve the full randomized postcode to a precise location.
Any scheme that requires a database lookup will have very predictable problems: increased cost, inaccuracies, data refresh lag, inability to address anything that is not in the database, etc.

Surely that applies to all schemes?

Javan

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Surely that applies to all schemes?

No, not necessarily.

Geolocation schemes like Loc8 and Open Postcode are encodings of co-ordinates. As such all you need is the algorithm to convert from a postcode to a location or back. There is no need to have a database.

TheBustedFlush

Javan wrote: »

No, not necessarily.

Geolocation schemes like Loc8 and Open Postcode are encodings of co-ordinates. As such all you need is the algorithm to convert from a postcode to a location or back. There is no need to have a database.

So I get one of these codes and I want to find out its address - how do I get it?

Javan

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

So I get one of these codes and I want to find out its address - how do I get it?

Like I say, you need to algorithm.
Loc8 can be used on Garmin devices. Enter the Loc8 code as a postcode and away you go.
There are smartphone apps as well, that will translate these codes into GPS co-ordinates or point out the location on a map.

For the details of how to decode an Open Postcode reference, look here:
http://www.openpostcode.org/home/calculations
These are the calculations that are built in to any of the apps that use the system.

The point is that since there is no database there is no ongoing database maintenance cost and no data refresh lag.

TheBustedFlush

Javan wrote: »

Like I say, you need to algorithm.

No - that wasn't my question. You're saying I need a particular brand of satnav to interpret one, and an app to interpret the other. I don't need to know its location, I need to know the address for that location. How would I get it?

TheBustedFlush

Or if I want to look up the location of an address and I don't have its code, how do I find out the location or the code?

ozmo

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Or if I want to look up the location of an address and I don't have its code, how do I find out the location or the code?

Two separate things. Location cordinates and address.
Either one useful to find your house though. The Irish Eircode will ensure there is no way to go from one to the other without paying (and its questionable if we would even
want them to be able do this)

recedite

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

I don't need to know its location, I need to know the address for that location. How would I get it?

Why do you need to know that, if you are not physically going there?
Do you want to sell this information to insurance companies so they can add an extra loading onto my premium? Maybe sell it to a junk mail marketing company? This is precisely what the Data Protection Commissioner was talking about.
I don't want you to know that information. I want the package I ordered on the internet to be delivered, or for the ambulance I called to be able to find my house.

From these links here;

The ODPC argues that a public database linking a code to a single unit residential address “could be considered as being personal data of the occupants of that dwelling”.

And no, neither Billy the Butcher nor AIB will upload my address or any other data I give them onto a public database. They will not even pass it on to a third party without my permission.

You have some neck to slag off the Commissioner with jibes about retirement etc. What is your own commercial interest in this anyway?
I'm always suspicious of people who suddenly appear under a brand new username on boards.ie and then rattle off post after post on a single issue, trying to swamp the other posts in a deluge of nonsense.

And see here what else the Data Protection Commissioner says;

“No privacy impact assessment has been carried out and I continue to be deeply concerned about the implications of this and the fact that they have not in fact been properly examined.”
He said the move from the original proposal for an area-based code to an individual code was “apparently driven by commercial pressures” without any assessment of the privacy impact of this scheme.

TheBustedFlush

recedite wrote: »

Why do you need to know that, if you are not physically going there?
Do you want to sell this information to insurance companies so they can add an extra loading onto my premium? Maybe sell it to a junk mail marketing company? This is precisely what the Data Protection Commissioner was talking about.
I don't want you to know that information. I want the package I ordered on the internet to be delivered, or for the ambulance I called to be able to find my house.

And no, neither Billy the Butcher nor AIB will upload my address or any other data I give them onto a public database. They will not even pass it on to a third party without my permission.

You have some neck to slag off the Commissioner with jibes about retirement etc. What is your own commercial interest in this anyway?
I'm always suspicious of people who suddenly appear under a brand new username on boards.ie and then rattle off post after post on a single issue, trying to swamp the other posts in a deluge of nonsense.

I want to know how I can find out the address for a code. It's a simple request. the circumstances are irrelevant. And I'm asking how I would find it out - unless you have a database of addresses linked into that code. You need to use a database to allocate the code or retrieve it. That's all I'm saying.

You have no problem slagging off people on here so you're hardly in a position to criticise someone else's comments - that is evident from your previous inaccurate posts.

Javan

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

No - that wasn't my question. You're saying I need a particular brand of satnav to interpret one, and an app to interpret the other. I don't need to know its location, I need to know the address for that location. How would I get it?

That's not actually what I'm saying. I'm saying that there is no need for a database so there are none of the costs and drawbacks associated with a database-based system.
With open postcode you can translate between postcode and location with pen and paper if you like. There is no need for any app.

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Or if I want to look up the location of an address and I don't have its code, how do I find out the location or the code?

So your requirement is to translate between a postcode and a street number (instead of between a postcode and a location)? In that case, yes you will need a database.

Like I've said before, it seems to me that Eircode is designed with that problem in mind, and only that problem. It will meet some very narrow use cases but will completely fail to be open, extensible or general-purpose.

a65b2cd

From the DPC Report
"This Office is unaware as to how this Consortium in conjunction with the Department will ensure that the Individual citizen’s fundamental right to data protection (and Privacy) will be safeguarded into the future by the use of this postcode."

I think the DPC is correct to be concerned that data protection laws are respected and enforced but surely he is responsible for that. Surely his role is to ensure that access to any personal information is only given to organisations and persons with authority to access it. He seems to take the view that he is doing his job if he can prevent the existence of Google, Facebook, street names and numbers, smart phones, telephone books etc. I wonder did he object to the possibility of LOC8 being used as the national postcode because it can be directly translated to a point on a map without the intermediate step of a database.

TheBustedFlush

Javan wrote: »

So your requirement is to translate between a postcode and a street number (instead of between a postcode and a location)? In that case, yes you will need a database.
.

Thank you - that clarifies that point.

recedite

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

You have no problem slagging off people on here so you're hardly in a position to criticise someone else's comments - that is evident from your previous inaccurate posts.

Are you denying then that people who were on the panel to design the postcode and the govt. tender for it, were also involved in submitting the winning bid?

recedite

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

I want to know how I can find out the address for a code. It's a simple request.

We already have an address database. Its called Geodirectory.
If it was necessary or desirable to have location codes inserted into the database, that would be simple matter. Note that I said location codes, ie codes containing the location information within the code.

If you want these latest "postcodes" or letterbox reference numbers to be linked to an address, then put them in the database too. If you want to link all three (letter box references, written address, and location information) then put the 10 or 12 digits of the raw geo co-ordinates in there too. The letterbox number is somewhat pointless and redundant though. If its only function is to look up the database, that could just as easily be done by assigning a real location code to the property and using that as a lookup.

TheBustedFlush

recedite wrote: »

We already have an address database. Its called Geodirectory.
If it was necessary or desirable to have location codes inserted into the database, that would be simple matter. Note that I said location codes, ie codes containing the location information within the code.

If you want these latest "postcodes" or letterbox reference numbers to be linked to an address, then put them in the database too. If you want to link all three (letter box references, written address, and location information) then put the 10 or 12 digits of the raw geo co-ordinates in there too. The letterbox number is somewhat pointless and redundant though. If its only function is to look up the database, that could just as easily be done by assigning a real location code to the property and using that as a lookup.

In short, you need a database to find the address for the code.

TheBustedFlush

recedite wrote: »

Are you denying then that people who were on the panel to design the postcode and the govt. tender for it, were also involved in submitting the winning bid?

This doesn't make sense.

gctest50

recedite wrote: »

We already have an address database. Its called Geodirectory.
.

Not up to much really is it ?

Why are they so bad at finding places lately ?

https://www.geodirectory.ie/What-is-Geodirectory/Case-Studies/emergency-services.aspx

recedite

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

In short, you need a database to find the address for the code.

Yes, it was designed to be useless without a database.

TheBustedFlush

recedite wrote: »

Yes, it was designed to be useless without a database.

Eh, I was talking about Loc8 and Openpostcode, but if that's your view of them, you're entitled to it.

Did you work out where you skewed your logic yet?

ozmo

TheBustedFlush wrote: »

Eh, I was talking about Loc8 and Openpostcode, but if that's your view of them, you're entitled to it.

Did you work out where you skewed your logic yet?

You have asked this 3 or more times now - consider just the these two points


1. You do not need a database to go from a Postcode to get to your house.

2. Postcode is to replace the address Because You cannot go from an address to a house reliably.



(details: (1) unless its an Eircode one & (2) unless you are allowed to ask the local postman )

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

TheBustedFlush

ozmo wrote: »

You have asked this 3 or more times now - consider just the these two points


1. You do not need a database to go from a Postcode to get to your house.

2. Postcode is to replace the address Because You cannot go from an address to a house reliably.

(details: (1) unless its an Eircode one & (2) unless you are allowed to ask the local postman )

I have asked what three times now?

[1. You do not need a database to go from a postcode to get to your house.] Yes this is self-evident.

[2 Postcode is to replace. ...because you cannot go from an address to a house reliably] This sentence doesn't make sense grammatically.

The question about databases was already answered simply by Javan a number of posts back.

larchill

I see that ther're potential dataprotection issues with eircodes according to the news this morning? You'd think this'd have been all thrashed out before now. I know that this issue was covered in earlier documentation back in the mid 00s. This was the reason for the original ABC 123 proposal where ABC would be the postal town, & 123 a cluster of houses on a street or a townland in a rural area. Are we in trouble with A23 B2CD before we even get off the ground ...:(

Trick of the Tail

With all the millions spent on consultants, you'd think one if them would have covered the data protection issue.

Yet another indication of the mismanagement and wastage of the code process.

However the govt will simply legislate our data protection rights away, as they have done before, to get around this.


Malfeasance and ineptitude. That's how things are done in Irish government.